ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
BASEBALL IN PENNSYLVANIA

Karen Callender

1. Student's

Name

2- Subject's

Name

3- Subject's

Background

Sal1y 0'Leary

Thirtv vears with

a. date and place of birth
b. Present address

Pi

ttshrrrsh

-

PA

Same

Stadium.

c- Present Occupation

ttsburgh Pirate public relations

PR manager,

rs
Pgh. Pirates

11121194

4. Date of fnterview
5. General Cornrnents:

Mrs. 0'Leary was very plesant to interview, and generous with her time.
She provided me with a 1994 record and information guide that has a
section on the history of the Pirates, as well as biographies,

season

reviews and other information. Mrs. 0'Leary was familiar with Slippery
Rock

University through interns that have served in the Pirate organization.

She seemed pleased

to contribute to our university archives.

DO NOT I{RITE BELOTJ THIS LINE

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
BASEBALL

IN

PENNSYLVANIA

Subject: Ms. Sa1ly 0'Leary
Public Relations Manager
Pittsburgh Pirates

Karen Callender
11l22le4

KC:
SOL:

When

did you join the Pirate organization?

In May of 1964. I joined when we were sti11 at Forbes Field. At Forbes
Field we had a very smal1 staff of probably twenty-five people altogether
I went into the public relations department, but we also did group sales,
conmunity nights, promotions, speakers, and anything that came along we
did it in PR. There were just two of us! The boss and myself.
big is the department now?

KC:

How

SOL:

When we moved to Three Rivers Istadium] the staff enlarged. We probably
went up to maybe seventy-five at that point, and since then its enlarged
even more. I think we're probably up to one hundred and fifty.
That isas
cut back again because of the strike situation and club being up for sa1e.
Its just grown and grown in all areas, every department. Now there is a
group sales department, there's a community relations department, there's
a promotions department.

KC

So its become more specialized?

SOL:

Yes, everything has its own area.

KC:

Before you joined the organization did you have an interest in baseball?

SOL

Very much. I'd always been a fan. I had applied for the job a couple of
times and f always got the form letter back saying there were no openings
but they would keep my name on fi1e. Fortunately, f worked for an ad agency
in Pittsburgh, and one of our clients was Mellon Bank. I was scheduling
commercials for Me11on, and they happened to be a sponsor of Pirate baseball
on radio and TV. My name was on the commercials as a contact, if there
was ever a problem. That's how f got to know Bob Prince, who was the "Voice

of the Pirates" for many,

many

years.

We became

very good friends,

and

he knew of my interest in the game. He said that someday there would be
and opening with the Pirates and he would see that I got a chance at the
job. So, it happened. The girl that had the job had been there for about
eleven years, and everyone thought that she would die there because she
was such a fan. But she was from Philadelphia and she wanted to go back
to Temple [University] and further her education, so there was an opening.
f had my interview at a ballgame one saturday afternoon, and I got the
job!
KC

That's great! And you've been here ever since?

SOL:

0h yes, thirty

KC:

f'd like to ask you specifically about your duties, what you did then and
what you do now.

SOL:

years later!

f've been here ever since.

It was basically secretarial. Although one big part of the job was statistics.
I had to keep score of every game, so f had to go to every game. I had
to update the statistics every day, and prepare press notes for the next
home game. In those days f didn't have an adding machine or a calculator.
I didn't have an electric typewriter, or a xerox machine. There was no
such thing as a fax machine. Everything was very manual.

2

to be very well organized

KC:

You had

SOL:

0h dear! And you rea11y had to know the game. You had to know how to
keep score. You had to follow records and keep on top of things for the
media. And I hated math when I was in school! f just despised math, and
here I am in a job where f have to use it every day!

KC

I have a statistics
frustrating !

class now, so f can sympathize with you, it can be very

SOL:

Yes, but it did keep my interest, and f always knew what was going on.
I could answer questions, we had so many phone calls. But I could answer
the questions from media and from fans.

KC:

So you

SOL:

0h yes.

KC

rea1ly had an overall perspective of things.

0ver the years, aside from the growth of the behind-the-scenes organization;
what other changes have you noticed? Such as the focus of PR; who were
the fans? Were they the same thirty years ago as they are now?

SOL:

No, its changed considerably. The game, f think we all know has become
a big business. There's so much money involved. When I first joined the
c1ub, the players were very . . . you were very close to the players.
You could deal with them directly.
You could get them to make appearances
for minimal fees. They were always available, they were always there.
Now, its almost impossible to get a player to make an appearance, unless
it'lson a charity basis, for a charity organization. But to just make an
appearance as a speaker or to sign autographs for a couple of hours; there's
a fee that has to be paid. That has taken some of the real close fan interest
away, f think. There's not that closeness anymore. We've had an ownership
change over the years too, which has effected a 1ot. When I joined the
c1ub, the Galbreaths owned the club. They owned it for over forty years
when they sold it in 1985. Then we were purchased by a conglomerate of
twelve or fourteen business people. That changed it considerably. A11
of a sudden we had fourteen bosses to report to! Its been quite a change
that I've seen over the years.

KC:

There are many people who say the players have benefited over the last thirty
years, as far a salary and the treatment they receive. We've all seen films
of the old days with the players crammed into a bus, being stitched up after
a game.

SOL:

Yes, exactly.

KC:

But there had to be a turning point when everyone was satisfied with their
situation, as far as what was expected and what they received. Something
changed since that point. Whether it was free agency coming into the picture
or something else. What do you think it was?

SOL:

We1l, f think it was when they organized, when they got their union. That's
r^rhen it rea11y started to change. And all the players have an agent or
an attorney who deals for that player. When Joe Brown was our general manager,

3

When he finally retired, he did so before this
real1y took off. Because, he was of the opinion, if he couldn't deal face
to face with a player and negotiate a contract, then he didn't want any
part of it. ff he had to deal with an agent as a middle-person, that just
took away a 1ot of the warmth and personal feeling towards it all. So f
think that's when it started to change. When this union was formed. Grant
it, the players certainly have benefited.

he could see this coming.

KC

Financ ia11y?

SOL:

Yes, very much so. But it has taken away that closeness, f think

KC

What about

public opinion toward the players?

SOL:

He1l, I think it is hot and cold. If you're winning, f don't think they
rea11y care what they're [players] making or what they're doing. But if
you're not winning all the time, then they [fans] start seeing all these
other little things that effect it and they start blaming this or that.
But we've been fortunate that we've had many good years here, as far as
winning, or getting close to winning. This last year or two when we lost
to Atlanta for the third time then it was a real downer. It never seemed
to pick up again.

KC:

Do you rea11y see waves

SOL:

0h yes, y€s. Definitely. Now we had a good advance sale through this past
season because we were going to have the A11-Star game. And in order to
get a ticket to the All-Star, you had to be a season customer, rea11y.
So, there r^rere many different types of season ticket packages available
to the fans, and there lrere a 1ot of advance tickets sold on that premise.
But, I think it is going to be difficult to get many of those people back.
I think when this is finally settled, it's going to be a real selling job.
And f think that we anticipate that for a few years. We have to build it
back up again, in many ways.

KC:

The fan loyalty?

SOL:

of attendance according to wins and losses?

Yes,definitely. Because they feel betrayed, The season just shut-off August
twelfth, and no post season, no world series since 1904. They're bitter,
they rea1ly are, and a lot of us are too.

KC:

f can see that, and who do you blame for that?

SOL:

That's right. Both sides are involved. They both have their plate on the
table and somebody's going to have to five. Sonething on both sides is
going to have to give.

KC:

Is it a matter of too

SOL:

No, f don't think it's that. f think the players don't want to give up
anything that they have, and the owners have given and given, and given
all these years. Now they realizei hey, wait a minute, something has to
change here. Because we're continuing to give all the time and that's not
viable. The moneys just not going to be there. Especially in sma11 markets

many people

asking for too

much?

4

like ours. So somebody has to say; okay, this is enough. The owners have
consistently said they need a salary cap. I{hether that is going to happen
or not I don't know. It has to happen in some form. Whether this new offer
they've made in recent days is going to have it or not f don't know. We
don't really get that close to knowing what is in the package. We just
have to know what we read in the paper and wait and see.
KC

Throughout this whole season, what have you done for public relations?
f'm sure you're trying to keep the love of the game alive, for when it does
come back.

SOL:

Right,

right.

KC:

How do

you do that?

SOL:

It's pretty difficult, it real1y is. We can't use the players in any way,
because they're on strike, so we have no contact with them. They wouldn't
be able to do anything anyway under the circumstances. So this is one area
in which we have used the former players a 1ot. We have about twenty-five
who live in this area. If we get requests for speakers or assemblies, we
try to put someone there. But mostly it's front office people who go out
and try to convince the public that we will have a baseball season in ninetyfive [1995], and somebody will be playing ba1l. You just have to try your
best. It's difficult.
First you don't know who is going to be on your
team. We have a 1ot of preparation to get ready for spring training. tr'Ie
have to write a media guide, do a yearbook, and you don't know who to write
about! You have a forty-man roster, but you don't know if those players
who are going to be tendered contracts are going to come to camp. You don't
know if they'11 cross the line and come. So you're rea11y at a standstill
in a 1ot of areas. But I have noticed, this off-season, that I have not
gotten the requests from the public for players to appear. I get all the
requests for the former players through my office and they just haven't
been there this year. f've had very few. This shows me that the fans,
even for the old-time players, are losing their interest in the game. So

t.

there is going to be a big selling job.

KC:

I don't envy your position, and f think you're right, it is going to
a lot to turn people around.

SOL:

It is

KC:

And depending upon

could be tough.

their [ttre ptayers] attitude

SOL:

That's right.

KC:

And

SOL:

Exactly, because of the sale, right.

KC:

And the new stadium,

SOL:

when

this is complicated with the Pirate organization

they

come

because

take

back, it

of the

sale?

they're talking about that?

Right, right. Personally, I don't think we need a new stadium, but they
don't ask me. But it makes me laugh that twenty-five years ago when we

5

were moving here [Three Rivers Stadium], this was the greatest thing ever
built. It had everything that anyone could ever want or need. Now, all
of a sudden, it's out of date. f feel there are things that they can do
to the stadium to make it more compatible to what the fan is looking for.
There are things they could change rather than build a whole new arena
someplace, I just can't see it.

is the

EC:

What

SOL:

Ever since we've opened, people complain about the traffic, and parking
and one thing or another. And there again it makes me laugh because the
football fans come, and you don't hear any complaints about waiting in traffic
after a game. f don't know if it's a different breed of fan, or what it
is. The Civic Arena is the same thing. You hear no publicity about bad
traffic jams after an event at the Arena. Yet anytime they're held up here
after a baseball game
. f guess it may be because we play so many home
games. We have an eighty-one home game schedule. Maybe that's it, f don't

problem people have

with the

stadium?

know.
KC

It may be that public opinion has grown sour. You hate to see it effect
the game itself.

SOL:

Yes.

KC

But you would say the game itself hasn't

SOL

changed?

The game hasn't changed, no. fts become more scientific in a lot of ways.
The players are certainly better prepared physically. They have all kinds
of equipment and training available for them, that the old-timers didn't

have. They're travel plans are first
it's strange.

class all the way. f don't

know,

KC:

Is there a difference now between the richer c1ubs, clubs that are buying
the large salaries and a smaller club like ours? ft hasn't rea11y helped
a club like the Mets, at least in the last few years, but does it make a
difference to the game?

SOL:

WelI, you can't really "buy" a team. You rea1ly can't. ff you have good
talent, and good managers to bring them along .
it its there, it will
come through. f'm firmly convinced you can't buy a team like the Yankees
have tried to do, or Oakland, or some of the other clubs. If you have the
right group of fellas. that are dedicated, and if you have a good farm system,
good minor league organization, if you build that up you're going to be
fine. And we're doing that here. I think our minor leagues and farms have
been working hard in the last few years and have built up a pretty good
pool of players. They want to play. They're ready, they're anxious. The
young Buys are ready to go.

KC

SOL;

Could it come to that?
Sure it cou1d. And there again I think the fans would come out to see that.
f think they're [the fans] ready for this. f think they know you won't
win right away but they would appreciate somebody hustling and playing a
good game. And eventually they're going to be great.

6

KC:

Do you

think the fans, especially here in Pittsburgh, like the underdog

t.

team?

SOL:

Yes, they do.

KC:

For a couple of years.

SOL:

Yes, but not too long!

KC:

I remember in the seventi-es [1970's] we would come to games at least
a week. That was the time of Dave Parker and Wi1lie Stargell, and it
a very warmr loving feeling we had for the team.

;1.

.

once
was

SOL:

0h yes, the seventies were fun!

KC:

Even

SOL:

0h, it takes awhile.

KC:

Yet when f went to a game a year or so ago, I just didn't sense that feeling.
But all this was in the air, with salaries and everything.

S0L:

That's right.

KC:

Fans were booing Barry Bonds when he came

SOL:

Andit'rsbeen his attitude.

KC

And he could be.

the seasons leading up to those winning years were wonderful.

out on the field.

The way he'11 not talk to people and to rnedia.
He's:ran outstanding athlete. He has all the tools in the world, but he's
Bot to learn to control his mouth. To be decent to people. He's the idol
of a 1ot of little kids, they think he's just the greatest.

SOL:

That's right, but he's got to show some compassion. The players have to
do that. They have to use their PR a little bit!

KC:

ft is a business.

S0L:

Yes

it is.

One

thing we have been fortunate in is in the

KC:

management

of our team. Murtaugh,

Leyland.
SOL:

We've had some great managers, Chuch Tanner, Leyland. Leyland has been
outstanding. Here was a minor league coach brought in as a manager. Nobody
had ever rea1ly heard of him, but he has a way about him, the players rea1ly
respect him, they'11 play for him.

KC:

I noticed that also. I remember that when Bonds showed disrespect for Leyland
and the fans turned on him. It seems if a player is having a bad season,
the fans will stay behind him, but, as with Bonds, if they do something
toward Leyland, or make bad remarks about Pittsburgh, he'11 lose the town.

SOL:

That's right.

7

KC:
SOL

f hope it stays the

same

in this town, that we don't lost that feeling.

I think it wil1. We've had baseball for 108, 109 years. f can't imagine
it leaving. f just can't imagine that happening. That's why f felt that
we would eventually get a new buyer, and we would stay here, f never felt
threatened that we would 1eave.

isn't much fear of that now, is there? Isn't it part of the deal
that the club stays here?

KC:

There

SOL

Right, right.

KC:

What about the

SOL:

I don't think its going to be in written form, but it will be a good faith
offering that there will probably be a new stadium.

KC:

So there''s

S0L:

0h

KC

a

stadium? Is that part of the deal?

1ot happening, much different from the days of Forbes Field?

it sure is, it sure is.

Another question regarding unions; I heard Myron Cope talking about working
at Forbes when he was a teenager. He would se1l hot dogs or soda, or whatever
he could and the working conditions were ar,sful . They would put him in what
was ca11ed "the dungeon" if he wasn't working so he couldn't see the game.
That was before the unions came in and things got better for most people.

SOL:

Yes, that's right.

KC:

Do you

thinkifsgone past the point of helping?

ill

Yes, I think it's gone a little bit beyond. Sure, things can sti11 be irnproved
in some areas, but I think you have to have a limit on everything. But
maybe I'm from the o1d school, f don't know.

KC:

So actually it's

SOL:

SOL:

the

money

that has prompted the

change.

0h yes, the money, f think it is. Definitely the money. 0f course the
big salaries create problems. You have to raise your ticket prices, food
prices, parking prices. Everything goes up in accordance. And it has to
stop someplace.

KC:

How

SOL:

Some people feel its been quite a bit, but f don't know. f think if people
realIy want to come to a ballgame they're going to pay the ticket price.
They may not come as often, the fanily of four or whatever. They can sti1l
come and sit in general admission and have a good evening at a reasonable
price. But if they want a box seat they're probably not going to come
more than two or three times as a group.

KC:

Has

SOL:

Sure, sure.

badly has that effected attendance?

this inspired things like "family night"?
We

never used to have promotions like that, but once we got

8

over here we had to do something to fill these seats. The Galbreaths rea11y
didn't promote that much, because in those days you didn't have to. But
once we got over here they realized you have to change your thinking and
That's when we started the different promotions.
market it a 1itt1e differently.
usually on weekends or Friday nights, Sundays. Recent years we started
family nights, or buck night in the middle of the week. They're very popular,
they really are.
KC

i:
I

SOL:

r)

I agree. You've made it possible to come and enjoy a game without having
to stay home for the next two weeks! f'd like to ask you about the image
of the game. All the problems you've talked about, the union and free agency,
this pu11 between the owners and the players, not just in Pittsburgh. From
the fans point of view, from the feedback your getting, do people sti1l
love baseball? Is it sti1l America's sport?
Well, it's going to have a pretty rough race right now. I think so many
people are turned off. Because for years and years baseball was the number
one game. f don't know if we're going to come out number one right away.
If they don't settle this and we don't have a major league season next year,
it is really going to be a battle. If the players do come back f think
the fans will come back. f feel sure they wi11, all over the country, although
you hear a 1ot of them say they'11 never Bo to another ba11game, and they
could care 1ess. I think once the players go to camp and you start spring
training and all this starts up again, f think your good fans will come
back. Your basic fans. It is going to take awhile. f don't care what
way it ends up, it's going to take awhile.
think a replacement with minor league players will help?

KC:

Do you

SOL:

I think it will he1p, yes. I don't know whether it's going to be overwhelming
right away. They're [the fans] going to wait and see just how interesting
it real1y is. But, it's going to take awhile, in my opinion.

KC:

We11, we've

SOL:

That's right!

KC

I think baseball will be around for a 1ong, long time.

got time.

SOL:

Well f do too. f can't imagine it dying. tr{hen you looked at "Basebal1"
by Ken Burns you saw that they had problems in their day too.

KC

Has

SOL:

I don't know but when f watched it f was surprised at the things they were
having problems with in those days. To us now some of them may seem very
minor. But in that time it was probably a pretty major thing. f was surprised
at some of the things the players were complaining about. They wanted to
be organized in some way or another, but it never happened.

KC:

Burns focused a lot on racism.

SOL:

Yes, he did

there been anything in baseball history to compare with this last year?
Especially in this area between the sale, the stadium controversy, the strike?

9

KC;

SOL:

Is that stil1 a factor today?
I don't think it is.

I don't feel that here in Pittsburgh anyway.

We've

had some very good black athletes. Some outstanding ones like Clemente
and Starge11. They certainly were behind them all the way. So I don't
think that's a problem with us at all.

KC:

So there have been some good changes?

SOL:

0h yes, I€s definitely.