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Slippery Rock University
An Early Alumni Profile
and
Selected Oral Histories
Donald S. Kelly and George T. Force
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A PROFILE OF THE EARLY ALUMNI
OF THE
PENNSYLVANIA STATE NORMAL SCHOOL
AT
SLIPPERY ROCK:
THE FIRST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, 1890-1915
and
SELECTED ORAL HISTORIES
OF
SLIPPERY ROCK UNIVERSITY ALUMNI
by
Donald S. Kelly
Professor Emeritus
History Department
Slippery Rock University
George T. Force
Professor
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
PREFACE
This Slippery Rock University Centennial research project is
divided into two parts. Part I is devoted to a study of the early
alumni of Slippery Rock University. An early annual catalog of
the institution constitutes the primary source of information
about the people who graduated from the Normal School between 1890
and 1915. Based on the information in the catalogue, a
quantitative profile is drawn of some of the characteristics of
the graduates.
Part II presents twelve oral histories of people with close
ties to Slippery Rock University. The oral histories were given
by eleven graduates and one employee of the institution. The
eleven graduates with their graduation years are: Hazel Armstrong
(1925), Joseph Frazier (1929), Oliver Gordon (1925), Marian
Hartley (1933), Howard Headland (1906), Dora Johnson (1916),
Donald Kelly (1956), Carl Laughner (1949) and Norma Laughner
(1948), Sally Lennox (1959), and Margaret Nelson (1920). The
twelfth oral history is by Carl Woodling, a longtime employee of
the institution.
This project could not have been completed without the able
help and assistance of a number of people. The profile of the
early alumni would not have been completed without the efforts of
Amy Griswold, Steve Nobels, and Jill Thomas, student workers in
the History Department at Slippery Rock University who coded most
of the data on which the profile is built. We extend our
appreciation to these students.
Several persons conducted the oral histories. Dr. James
Mennel of the SRU History Department interviewed Joseph Frazier,
Dr. Joseph Riggs of the SRU Communication Department interviewed
Donald Kelly, and Dr. Robert Watson, SRU Dean of Academic Services
interviewed Howard Headland. Ms. Shirley Cubbison interviewed
Carl Woodling and Ms. Peggy Mershimer interviewed Hazel Armstrong;
Shirley and Peggy conducted their interviews representing the
Slippery Rock Heritage Association. The remaining interviews were
conducted by Dr. Donald Kelly.
In all cases, of course, the oral histories had to be
transcribed. Mrs. Donna McKee, History Department Secretary, not
only contributed countless hours transcribing the histories, but
also supervised the student workers who contributed to the
project. Our sincere appreciation is extended to all of these
persons and especially to Donna for her conscientious and
professional assistance.
Donald S. Kelly
George T. Force
A Profile of the Early Alumni
of the Pennsylvania State Normal School at
Slippery Rock:
the First Twenty-five Years, 1890 to 1915
Donald S. Kelly
History Department
Slippery Rock University
INTRODUCTION.
George T. Force
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
Besides placing great value on the family and
the church, education was given a high priority among the settlers
of the Slippery Rock, Pennsylvania, area from the earliest days
(Long and Heintzelman, 5).
Between 1857 and 1887 at least four
attempts were made by members of the community to establish
"academies" or college level institutions in Slippery Rock.
The
area residents' enthusiam for higher education probably reflects,
as much as anything, the culture of the Scots-Irish, the
predominant ethnic group of the region.
In their Ulster homeland,
the Scots-Irish were accustomed to the ideal of universal
education supported by taxation. In accord with this value,
Wayland Dunaway, the noted Pennsylvania historian, attributes to
the Scots-Irish the establishment of more educational academies
than any other group in the state (Dunaway, 274 and 303).
A permanent institution of higher education was realized in
Slippery Rock as a consequence of the adoption of the Normal
School Act in 1857.
This law divided the state into twelve
districts and authorized private citizens in a district to finance
and construct a Normal School for the purpose of teacher education
or preparation.
Each Normal School was to have at least ten acres
of land, dormitory space for three hundred students, a minimum of
six professors, and to be administered by a board of trustees
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ratified by the Commonwealth of
would be recognized and certin
y
Pennsylvania.
The first Normal School was established in 1859 in
miersville, Pennsylvania (Dunaway, 663).
Thirty years later in
March, 1889, the Pennsylvania State Normal School at Slippery Rock
was established in the eleventh district.
In 1890, the first
class of eleven students graduated.
Since its founding, the Normal School at Slippery Rock has
evolved and changed in countless ways.
Three major changes are
worthy of mention. The first major change occurred in 1916 when
the school became a state-owned institution of higher education.
Between 1889 and 1911, the Normal School at Slippery Rock operated
essentially as a private institution (as did the other Normal
Schools throughout the state) albeit under state mandated
guidelines.
In 1911, however, the Commonwealth began the process
by which the Normal Schools would be purchased from their private
stockholders or investors and become state-owned properties.
The
transfer of ownership to the state by the stockholders of the
Normal School at Slippery Rock occurred in February, 1916,
(Watson, 32).
Its legal status as a state-owned institution of
higher education has continued to the present day.
The second
major change concerns its name. The Normal School became the
State Teachers College at Slippery Rock in 1927 when it graduated
it first four year students (Watson, 57).
It was renamed Slippery
Rock State College in 1960 to reflect its change from a
-2-
predominantly teacher education college to a multipurpose
institution of higher education (Watson, 118).
Most recently, its
name was changed to Slippery Rock University on July 1, 1983, when
Act 188 of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania went into effect.
By
this act, the university became one of fourteen members of the
state-owned State System of Higher Education.
The third and final
change is reflected in the institution's general growth and
expansion.
Today, Slippery Rock University has a campus of over
600 acres with more than 55 buildings; it has about 800 employees
of whom approximately 400 are professors; it enrolls more than
7,400 students most of whom are Pennsylvania residents, but some
of whom come from 36 states and 56 foreign countries; and the
university annually graduates between 900 and 1000 students who
have majored in one of the more than 70 baccalaureate and 30
masters level degree programs.
Our interest, of course, is not in the present, but in the
past.
The focus of this research is on the alumni from the
Classes of 1890 through 1915 of the Pennsylvania State Normal
School at Slippery Rock.
Our interest derives primarily from the
centennial birthday of the Normal School, a 100th birthday
celebration that is occurring during the 1989-90 academic year and
which provides a fitting setting for an examination of the
institution's early alumni.
Specifically, our purpose is to
present a profile of the early alumni and, by doing so, to
contribute in a small way to the history of the Pennsylvania State
Normal School at Slippery Rock.
METHODOLOGY.
One cliche about auctions or "yard sales" is
that one person's junk is another's treasure.
The cliche proved
true when the Twenty-Eighth Annual Catalogue of the Pennsylvania
State Normal School at Slippery Rock was purchased at auction for
about $.25.
reasons.
The Catalogue became our treasure for several
Foremost is that the Catalogue contains a variety of
information of historical interest about the early years of the
Slippery Rock Normal School.
Much of the historical information
is timely as the institution entered it 100th birthday
celebration.
Another reason for prizing the Catalogue is that it
contained not only a listing of the members of the graduating
classes from 1890 to 1915, but also reported several items of
information about each alumnus.
Similiar to other editions, the Twenty-Eighth Annual
Catalogue contains an Alumni Register which provides probably as
complete a listing of the alumni of the Normal School as can be
found.
In addition to the name of each class member, several
other items of information are given for each alumnus.
First,
since the register is organized by class, the year of graduation
is known.
Second, the marital status of the female alumni is
known because the register gives both the maiden and married
names; unfortunately, the register does not report whether the
male alumni are married or unmarried.
Third, the register
provides information on the city, state, and country of residence
of the alumni.
Fourth, if an alumnus was known to be deceased,
the register gives the year of death.
reports the occupation for the alumni.
Finally, the register
Obviously, these items of
information were current when the Catalogue was published.
-4-
In addition to the recorded items of information, two other
items, the gender and the Pennsylvania county of residence of the
alumni, could be established.
Gender was determined from the
first name and/or the marital status of an alumnus or from a
combination of these items.
Indeed, in only sixteen cases did
this procedure preclude determining the gender of an alumnus,
e.g., when the given first name (or second name, if given) did not
clearly indicate gender, when the person's initials were given, or
when a combination of information clearly did not indicate gender.
The Pennsylvania county of residence was determined by locating
the Pennsylvania city of residence in the appropriate county.
This procedure was successful in all but 152 cases.
Once the information items were determined, a codebook was
constructed and the data about each alumnus were quantified.
Besides a unique identifier, nine items of information were
recorded for each alumnus. These data were analyzed by using the
frequencies and crosstabs subroutines in the SPSS-X statistical
package.
The results from these routines allow us to draw a
group profile of the early alumni of the Pennsylvania State Normal
School at Slippery Rock.
PROFILE OF THE ALUMNI.
A partial profile of the early alumni
of the Normal School at Slippery Rock can be drawn by reviewing
the few social characteristics on which there is information.
Attention is then directed to the variation in the sizes of the
graduating classes.
Finally, information is presented about the
places of residence and the occupations of the alumni.
Social Characteristics.
Between 1890 and 1915, 2,597
-5-
students became alumni of the Pennsylvania State Normal School at
Slippery Rock.
The vast majority of the alumni were women.
the 2,581 alumni for whom
Of
gender could be established, 2060 or
79% were women and 521 or 20% were men.
was composed entirely of women.
Indeed, the class of 1890
In the following year, 1891, four
males graduated from the Normal School.
The distribution of males
to females is to be expected, perhaps, in a teacher education or
preparation college.
Based on information from the Alumni
Register, 621 (30%) of the female alumni did marry.
Unfortunately, because the year in which they married is not
reported, we cannot determine whether they were married before,
while attending, or after graduation.
Also, no information is
available about the marital status of the male alumni, but it is
likely that a large percentage of the males probably were married
when the Alumni Register was published. Finally, the number of
living alumni far exceeds the number of deceased alumni.
Of the
alumni, 2500 (96%) were alive at the time the Alumni Register
information was collected and/or published and, in fact, four
classes, 1903, 1911, 1914, and 1915 reported no deceased members.
Class Size.
The number of graduates in each class and the
percentage of the size of each class to the total number of
graduates are reported in Table 1.
As can be seen, the smallest
graduation class, with eleven members, was the 1890 class and the
largest, with 258 members, graduated in 1913.
It would be
pleasing, of course, to report that the Normal School experienced
steady, sustained growth in the number of its graduates during its
early years.
Such is not the case, however.
-6-
An examination of
Ln
the number of members in each graduating class indicates two
fairly distinct cycles and, perhaps, the beginning of a third
cycle during which the size until the number of graduates peaks.
A significantly smaller class graduates in the next year which
ushers in the beginning of new cycle.
Table 1. The Number of Slippery Rock Normal School
Graduates by Graduation Year, 1890 to 1915.
(N - 2,597)
Year
Number of
Graduates
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
11
12
33
53
58
75
111
91
110
106
144
112
153
%
Year
.4
.5
1.2
2.0
2.2
2.9
4.3
3.5
4.2
4.1
5.5
4.3
5.9
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911
1912
1913
1914
1915
Number of
Graduates
25
55
63
85
93
144
153
165
189
172
258
38
88
%
1.0
2.1
2.4
3.3
3.6
5.5
5.9
6.4
7.3
6.6
9.9
1.5
3.4
The first cycle begins, obviously, in 1890 when eleven
students graduated and ends in 1902 when 153 students graduated.
Overall, this time period shows the number of graduates increasing
slowly, but steadily between 1890 and 1896, fluctuating over the
next five years through 1901, and reaching a peak in 1902.
The
second cycle begins in 1903, when only 25 students graduated,
shows a consistent increase in the number of graduates each year,
with the exception of 1912, and peaks in 1913 when 258 students
became alumni.
The third cycle, for which only two years of data
are available, begins in 1914 when 38 students graduated, shows an
-7-
increase in the number of graduates in 1915 and, thus, reflects
initially at least the beginning of another cycle.
While some of the fluctuations in the cycles, and
particularly in the latter years of the first cycle, may be
explained partially by fee changes, the withdrawal from school by
some of the members of a class, and even natural disasters
(Watson, 22), the abrupt end to each cycle can be traced mainly to
changes in the number of years of required study.
During the
1890s, to be able to teach in the common schools of Pennsylvania,
a person had to complete successfully a two-year elementary
program.
As academic standards at the Normal School increased,
particularly in the form of additional coursework, only the best
prepared students were able to complete their studies in two
years.
In 1902, therefore, a third year was added to the
students' course of study. This change effectively reduced the
number of graduates in the class of 1903.
The same type of change
occurred in 1910 when a fourth year of study was added.
In this
instance, however, students already enrolled were allowed to
complete the three year course of study; hence, the larger sized
graduation classes between 1911 and 1913 and the abrupt downward
change in the size of the 1914 class.
Simply stated, therefore,
changes in the number of years of required study meant that fewer
students were eligible for graduation in 1903 and in 1914.
Residence.
The Alumni Register also provides information on
the place of residence for most of the alumni.
In particular,
information on the city, state, and, if the alumni resided outside
the United States, country of residence is given.
-8-
Information on
the state in which the alumni was living is presented in Table 2.
Of the 2,492 alumni for whom the place of residence could be
established, seven lived in a foreign country, one resided in the
District of Columbia, and the remaining 2,484 lived in the
continental United States.
The foreign countries of residence of
the Normal School alumni were Brazil, Canada, Egypt, what is now
Israel, Korea, the Phillipines, and what is now Thailand.
Of the
198 (8%) alumni who left Pennsylvania, 112 or 56% had moved to
either Ohio, New York, or California.
We do not know, of course,
how soon after graduation the alumni migrated to the other states
or to a foreign country.
Table 2.
State
The State of Residence of Slippery Rock Normal School
Alumni, 1890 to 1915. (N — 2,597)
Alumni
Arizona
California
Colorado
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Maryland
ts
Massachusetts
1
20
6
2
8
3
3
4
1
2
4
Alumni
State
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Montana
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
N.C.
N.D.
Ohio
Oklahoma
4
2
2
6
3
1
23
1
2
69
9
State
Alumni
4
Oregon
2285
PA
1
Texas
2
Utah
1
Virginia
8
Washington
6
West Virginia
1
Wisconsin
1
D.C.
Out-of-Country 7
105
Unknown
By far, however, most of the alumni, 2,285 or 92%, continued
to reside in Pennsylvania.
Because the number of alumni who
remained in Pennsylvania is so large, it is appropriate to
identify Where in Pennsylvania they established residence.
To do
this, the Pennsylvania city of residence, of which 412 distinct
cities were declared, was used to establish the Pennsylvania
county of residence of the alumni.
information.
Table 3 presents this
The Pennsylvania county of residence could be
determined for 2,133 or 93% of the 2,285 alumni who made
Pennsylvania their home after graduating from the Normal School.
Normal School alumni established residence in at least 37 of the
67 counties of Pennsylvania and 81% of the Pennsylvania alumni
resided in one of five counties: Allegheny, Beaver, Butler,
Lawrence, or Mercer.
Based on this finding, there is little
question that the Normal School alumni provided, as it continues
to do so today, the region in which it is located with a
substantial proportion of the area's professional personnel.
Table 3.
The Pennsylvania County of Residence of Slippery Rock
Normal School Alumni, 1890 to 1915. (N - 2,597)
County
Allegheny
Armstrong
Beaver
Bedford
Blair
Butler
Cambria
Carbon
Centre
Chester
Clarion
Clearfield
Crawford
Alumni
573
76
122
1
3
485
16
1
1
1
11
1
77
Occupation.
County
Alumni
Dauphin
Delaware
Erie
Fayette
Forest
Franklin
Greene
Huntingdon
Indiana
Jefferson
Lackawana
Lancaster
Lawrence
2
3
18
19
4
1
9
1
13
6
1
1
255
County
Alumni
Lebanon
1
McKean
2
Mercer
302
Philadelphia 2
Schuykill
1
Somerset
3
Venango
57
Warren
16
Washington
67
Wayne
1
Westmoreland 87
Unknown
152
The final characteristic of the alumni of the
Slippery Rock Normal School to be examined is their declared
occupation.
Table 4 reports information on the occupations of the
alumni.
-10-
The information in Table 4 leaves little if any
doubt that
the Slippery Rock Normal School was fulfilling its primary purpose
to prepare teachers for the public schools.
Sixty-six percent of
the alumni, reported that they were members of the education
profession either as a teacher, an administrator, a professor, or
were continuing their education as a student.
While many of these
alumni did report that they were teaching in a particular school
area or community, only a few of the alumni indicated the specific
area in which they were teaching, e.g.. music or elocution.
For
the vast majority of the teaching alumni who gave no such
indication, we are probably safe in assuming that they were
teaching a variety of subjects at several grade levels.
Table 4.
Occupations of Slippery Rock Normal School Alumni,
1890 to 1915. (N - 2,5*/;
Occupation
Alumni
Alumni
Occupation
Business/Commerce
Agriculture
sinking
Commercial
Industry
journalism
1717
Education
nfinftt
Teacher, general (1600
Teacher, specific (
Administrator
(0)
Professor
)• '
Student
>
69
Ministry
Professional
Government
Unknown/Not Given
7
Alumni
95
(-J)
<»>
(56)
(26)
(2)
33
676
While teacher education was the focus of education at
slippery Rock Normal School, it is apparent also that a Slippery
Rock education provided a stepping stone into a variety of other
jobs and professions.
or
Although considerably smaller in number,
3% of the alumni were doctors, dentists, attorneys, or had
-11-
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careers.
Another 4% of the alumni were
^ industrial worlds of the
other professiona
employed in the business, coimnerc
•
Mch they lived.
communities in which th y
,
Smaller numbers of the alumni
a.u~i. i. 1.."«»>
S""° ""
+• manv of the "no occupation" alumni weie
of women graduates that many
, . f pxecutive officers of households,
gainfully employed as chief execu
CONCLUSIONS.
The purpose of this research is to develop a
profile of the early alua.nl of the Pennsylvania Normal School at
Slippery Rock.
The characteristics of the alumni which make up
the profile are derived from information reported in the TwentyEighth Annual Catalogue or alumni register of the school.
Several general findings can be reported.
First, in terms of
their social characteristics, the overwhelming majority (79%) of
the Normal School alumni were women.
Indeed, based on the alumni
information several classes had no male graduates.
Second, the
student population--as reflected by the number of students who
graduated--grew somewhat unevenly.
That is, the number of alumni
increased each year until it fell dramatically.
While several
explanations for this growth pattern can be offered, a reasonable
explanation involves changes that were made in the curriculum.
Third, little migration is reported by the alumni.
Fewer that 200
of the alumni moved to states other than Pennsylvania.
Furthermore, a predominant number of alumni reside either in the
county in which the school is located or in adjacent counties.
Finally, in terms of the occupations of the alumni, it can be
-12-
stated unequivocally that the Normal School at Slippery Rock was
fulfilling its purpose to prepare teachers for the public
That is, two-thirds of the alumni were serving in some capacity as
professional educators.
REFERENCES
Dunaway, Wyland F. £
of PennsyWania.
Prentice-Hall, Inc, 1935.
New York:
Long, 01M - «U»'S£'lS£°£^"7
Rock Borough and Vicin
y.
Q R Q -1939
^tf§h^l
A History Compiled
s
— Rock'
Pennsylvania.
Watson^Robert'
^
A E E N R I fltion. 1982
-13-
Slippery Rock University
An Early Alumni Profi e
and
Selected Oral Histories
Selected Oral Histories
of
Slippery Rock University
Donald S. Kelly
Professor Emeritus
History Deparment
Slippery Rock University
INTRODUCTION.
edited by
George T. Force
Professor
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
The oral histories of Slippery Rock University
were collected as a project for the centennial celebration of the
university which occurred in 1989.
Ten of the interviews that led
to the oral histories were conducted during that year.
The
interviews of Howard Headland and Joseph Frazier had been recorded
several years earlier by Robert Watson and James Mennell,
respectively, for other research projects.
The content of these
two oral histories, however, warranted their inclusion in this
project.
The cassette tape interviews were held in a variety of
locations and often in less than ideal conditions.
The interviews
were conducted where the alumnus was residing--at home, in an
office, at a retirement home, or in a nursing home.
Often the
interviews were interruptued--by a knock at the door or by the
ringing of a telephone or by the need of a professional to attend
to a patient.
Despite the advanced age of several of the alumni
who were interviewed, all were alert and articulate.
An element
that may not be as evident in the printed version of the oral
histories, but which is extremely clear in the voice version of
the histories is the genuine affection for Slippery Rock Normal
School, State College, or University that was expressed by each
alumnus.
-14-
„
».—«»
,
t difficult phase Cf this project as performed
Perhaps the most ditlicui f
M
decipher
P—c,d
i.
unclearly, and guess at the prope
celling of unfamiliar surnames
p
the school. When the editors
of persons from the early years of the scno
worked at "editing" the transcriptions but were unable to
determine either the pronunciation of a word or the spelling of a
name with complete accuracy, they chose simply to insert a
question mark rather than to resort to guessing.
We apologize for
any errors that remain.
The alumni who were interviewed were chosen partly because of
their accessibility, partly because their years as students at
Slippery Rock were during the first half of this century, and
partly because the experiences of some of the alumni as employees
of the school would add richly to its history.
It is sincerely
hoped that the oral histories will be enjoyed by other alumni from
all eras and that they will trigger in each reader fond memories
of "The Rock."
-15-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Howard Headland
Interviewer: Robert Watson
RW
The last time, Mr. Headland, you had told me that you knew all but,
all the Presidents of the Normal School and Teachers College,
the exception of Dr. Morrow and Dr. Carter.
HH:
That's right.
RW
And I thought, if I could tonight, I would get some very Phonal
tvne of information of your recollections of Dr. Maltby, Pr°*
Mohler and Dr Eisenberg--anything that you remember about these
people'at all^ * I thought I woild try to get your recollectrons.
HH-
Well
then
of course, when I registered, Dr. Maltby was the
they called him. And, of course, I was a young krd from the
EliS
instructor or teacher in t ose su j
questions.
="-IrtsSs•OTS-js==
n
ts.
And then I
a
Slippery Rock.
RW:
That's right.
HH:
I was really not succeeding him, but endeavoring to do my job of
instructing.
RW:
registered^at SHppe^RoXl"^ Noma! S^hool^r'the first time
in 1901.
HH
Yes.
RW
Is that so?
HH
Yes.
The 28th of March to be exact.
Well, that, OK.
I quit the country
^nd^hflived^/our''horned
anftaught our home school, ihich was really at the corner of our
form
nn the highway.
-16-
RW:
Where was your farm, then?
ffl:
Do
you know ^ere Ccf—
RW:
No
I don't, I don t.
tT»
Hve
^
ffl;
Its on the old perry Highway, 7 .il»
1W
Oh, OK, OK, yes.
HH:
RW:
HH:
.
Evans
City.
The village is known as Hendersonville.
I
X know,
KIlvw » OK.
t-rail because that was the, supposedly
^d trail °traditionally so, fro, Pittsburgh to Franklin. Its
°Sor
this part'of it here now is Route 8.
RW:
HH:
RW:
Right, right, that's correct.
lived.
h
in
OK, I know exactly where your father
OK
of course I was born in Allegheny County just across the line,
Marshall Township, which is now Uarrendale area.
Right.
HH:
and take care of the family, under his mother s direction. He was
next to the oldest, and his older brother lived on another farm.
And so I was born there in an old log house. And my mother s
mother a n d father lived just across t h e field, o n II : t h a t
bought in 1843, when they came to this country. And they held that
farm until 1913, or something like that. Son succeeded to it.
RW:
And then you said that you had come from the country school to the
Normal School, and you were how old were you at the time. 17 . . .
HH:
17, it had been my 18th year. We had no high school near at that
time, so there was my parent's wanted me to have an education so
they sent me off to Normal School to get the equivalent of high
school, and I got better than high school, because I found that I
could do the course easily enough and make 90s, so I took an extra
one when I returned. I had enough to enter as a sophomore at
Mt.Union College. And I took extra there and after one year I
transferred to Grove City and entered the senior class, and
graduated that required 330 hours at that time and I got 331.
RW:
In what year then did you go to Mt. Union.
HH:
1907 and '08 and then here 1908 and '09.
RW:
At Grove City, right?
-17-
HH:
Yeah. In those days we didn't have the big lecture for commencement
and well of course, at Slippery Rock, they selected about a dozen
of us so-called honors students to make an oration or recital or
some sort at commencement for the program. And the same was
here at Grove City, so I was elected to do that here also.
RW:
Well, that's very nice. Were you a commencement speaker at your
graduation then at Slippery Rock?
HH:
How's that?
RW:
Were you the commencement speaker at Slippery Rock?
HH:
Yeah, I was one of the ten or twelve, I've forgotten just how many,
and I was the same here.
RW
above the call of duty, so to speak?
HH
Wel-l, I suPP°^ since l was ^^^the^nglish work from grammar,
with a major in English, i
J y
history that was
aassRW:
English.
HH:
RW:
That's good.
i rjsvchology and methods and oh we had to
And then of course we'ha py
SV
thing go by
uo
ha(
U
t
I don't blame you.
Now
going back to
S:rr^d"ust- ^lecturer,
HH:
^ recall?
or was he somewhat boring.
Well, I wouldn't say^® ^S* He^ould^tand*there in front of the
remember him in Psy<*°l s^;k
a question or anything, and then
class and lect]**e»
. . eves shut or maybe he was looking out an
perhaps he would have hrs eye^shut,^^
^
^of
;s.-r?bS
™s:
»*
h*
k*rt
it down to our level.
RW:
I-ve read In two or three different sources, that Dr.
-18-
Maltby was a
HH:
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH:
of humor, but he also had somewhat of a
person who had a good sense of humo
temper.
i
i-hat it was in our senior year and
Yes, oh yes
As an
old South Hall boys
the juniors bad put a ti g F
remember it.
dormitory, on the bell tower.
j
I remember it, right.
T « V P R entered in that kind
And some of the senior b °y®' t Q
u p there, at it, and
were going through the
to
h h i m a s he was going
followed him up and he
a n d bruised his hand
the window and he hit cne UJ - XV ,
much! and didn't touch the student at all.
of stuff,
he
through
very
I bet he had some words to say about that.
1-vr, n r three times when he was riled up
Yeah. Y e a b '
that**^Ordinarily he was modest and quiet. And he
in a case like t
.
.
h
h e w a s conducting chapel, when
was a little radical s °" e "™"^He would explode ! little bit
! ^Cld^r^occ^ionally iS the diningroom he
had his table off in the corner, like that was the corner and the
dining room was here, and we never had a prayer but he would tap a
bell, and that meant silence. And if there wasn t silence you
heard from him. And then he would tap the bell and it was time to
eat. And if there were any particular announcement he would make
it at that time because most of the students were in the two
dormitories, and of course the local students lived at home.
RW:
We were talking about Dr. Eisenberg and he was there, he was there
for . . .
HH:
17 years as I recall.
RW:
I remember seeing one picture, Mr. Headland, on the picture of the
on the front of the ???? magazine, ???? newspaper, which you said
you had been the original editor. A picture of Dr. Eisenberg and
William Jennings Bryan.
HH:
Yes.
RW:
OK. Do you remember anything about, did you happen to listen to Mr.
Bryan's lecture?
HH:
Oh yes. That was the second time I had heard it. I had him here at
Grove City when I was a student, and that is when he delivered his
famous lecture, The Prince of Peace. And in the meantime, I had
bought a copy of it and when he came to Slippery Rock I said Mr.
Bryan will you autograph your Prince of Peace. Gladly. In a way I
had sort of an introduction to him. He had been lecturing in China
where my uncle was a professor in the University of Peking and
uncle had entertained him, and I had that contact, and I made use
of it.
'
1917 to 1934.
And then . . .
Bryan was there to lecture.
-19-
When, then you mentioned your uncle.
. . ?
Would this be your father's .
My father's next younger brother, yeah. And he was educated at Mt.
Union and Boston University Theological School. And as he was then
ordained as a Methodist minister but he spent his life in teaching.
He took sick in 19, he went to China in 1890 and he was home during
1900, missed the Boxer Rebellion. He went back in the fall of
1900, the Rebellion was over, and then he taught till 1907,
contracted ?. That's a very serious affliction of the intestines, a
tropical disease, and they shipped him home, expecting him to die
but he recovered, lectured for a good many years in the Chautauqua
circuit and in 1914 he was elected to the faculty of his Alma
Mater, Mt. Union, and taught till he was 80.
Well that's something.
He lived to be 83, except about a week short. My oldest daughter,
he put her through the college. She lived with him and did the
housework.
Then, you said that you actually had an introduction then to William
Jennings Bryan.
Yeah.
Well, that was something. How did the students receive Mr.
when he spoke at Slippery Rock? Do you remember anything?
Bryan
Oh very very cordially, and enthusiastically. He talked there on
the political situation. We were sort of hoping that he would
repeat his Prince of Peace, but maybe it was because this was a
state school maybe that wouldn't fit in too well. I never knew
why.
OK.
Is it running alright?
Its running just fine now. Good. Well then, you got your Prince of
Peace copy autographed by Mr. Bryan.
And I passed it on to one of my children. I don't know which one.
I had a good many books autographed by authors and I discovered
there's no place here to keep them.
Right. I don't blame you. You know there's one, I've more or less
come across a book, through my father, that Dr. Maltby had
written. One on the flag of the United States, and Old Glory I
think was the name of the book, and its autographed in the inside
by Dr. Maltby. But I don't know to whom that was given in my
family, and Dad isn't quite sure either, so I'm going to have to
ask my grandmother.
-20-
^ A a-\ 1 of bis books, but I hadn t got
, j T iust maybe I bad all
and Dr
Murphy had
Well, I bad,
J aUtograpbs at th
and j asked hi
interf"
t
edited it
ofsomething8
^he didn-t do a
ry
l"ob of it. I liked to
^ printed name there
have them 'autographed ""^^and'inexperienced when Dr. Murphy
and the autograph. I
y^ what x wanted.
and I didn t
about Dr.
Well then, do you
Eisenberg, when he
leave Slippery Rock because of a
left Slippery ROCK,
particular reason.
,
i
fn pet some good roads, ana one
yes some of the, well, he 'wor ^
across to Keister, he
road that run from S"PP®7trustees owned a farm over there, and
opposed it, and one ri thetru
say that was the real reason
why'he'wasn't°elected S another post.
That's picked it up quite well.
Now will you be comfortable there.
Is that a good comfortable chair.
[H:
Yeab, it's very good.
nr
£causeeofa£af
Fi senberg migbt not bave been rehired
particular incident with the building of the one
road.
Some of the trustees were opposed to it.
And now, by this time, it would have been 1934.
Right.
And let's see, it would bave been strictly a State Teacher's
College then and the state would have probably then had all of the
control of the Board of Trustees.
HH:
I presume so, yes.
RW:
What do you remember about the college during the depression?
you remember much?
HH:
During the 1930s?
RW:
Yes.
HH:
The, well at first we got a 5% cut in salary, in 1932 or '33. Then
the next year we got a 10% cut. And that stood until the 1930s
sometime and we were, the former salary was restored and then we
got our annual increase until we reached the maximum. And I
reached my maximum along about 1940 I guess.
RW:
Well now, when the first 5% cut came, was that under Dr.
-21-
Do
Maltby
er, Dr. Eisenberg, did that
No, that as I recall was under Dr. Miller.
That would have been sometime then after . . .
Between 1934 and 1940.
And we had six years of ?
OK. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about Dr.
Eisenberg, especially, that might be significant to record in
history?
Oh yeah.
thing.
He was very active in the Methodist Church, that for one
Well, that's a good thing to know.
And he was active about the community in making addresses.
He was a real speaker then.
Yes, he was a real speaker, able speaker. He spoke, he had a
definite outline that he followed. He didn't say it was an
outline, but you sense it, as he mentioned his headings, you might
say.
Right, well then if he would have been a qualified speaker, did he
at that time still present the chapel proceedings, in other words,
did he still have chapel that the students went to.
Oh yes, and every Sunday evening we had a regular evening worship
service, and he would speak a number of times during the year, and
some of the others of us who were religiously inclined would have ?
teach term or something like that. I would speak two or three
times every year.
OK. Well that is a good thing to know, because often times a
President or a principal of an institution may not be as good a
speaker as others, and those who are good speakers you want to make
sure that you remember that, and qualify it as such. Then in 1934
when Dr. Eisenberg was not reelected, did they have Dr. Miller in
mind to bring in?
I could not answer that. He was at that time, I'm not sure, he had
been principal at a high school, in some town southeast of
Pittsburgh.
Down in the Indiana area, maybe.
Somewhere there. I just at the moment I've forgotten, but he had a
number of years of experience. And he had already earned his
Doctors degree from Pitt as I recall.
Then he applied for the job just as other applicants did?
-22-
HH:
r p r got very much of an enlightenment
I believe so. Of course we neverg
^ any of our own
on things like that. I don t thl ^
^ ^ an uncl
faculty that were hopeful. *° '
And 1
d in it at one time.
w
n
cousin, Arthur Vincent ^J; £®^ty members there were had much
don't know whether any other faculty
' ' '
OK
all
Well then, Dr. Miller came in, you said you
RH:
^TnLkna^or an expression for him.
HH:
Yes.
RW:
Little Charlie??
HH:
Yeah.
Little Charlie.
He was
I don't ^PP°*e ^/^ouirsa^he^asn^^too big^'
. » * j « i
e
. »h....
of the Board never sentenced him.
RW:
The judge was President of the Board of Trustees here in Slippery
Rock?
HH:
Yeah.
RW:
Well, then what do you remember what he was charged
HH:
Misfeasance and malfeasance, whatever that means.
RW:
Well then was he charged for these illegalities concerning a
particular area. Was it the student funds that was
HH:
No, I think it drew out of the purchase of material in connection
with Mrs. Emma Guffy Miller when she built some rather extensive
place out on her farm and that was part of it as it was sort of
brought out in the testimony.
RW:
OK. In other words, then, what period of time would this have been
when he was charged?
HH:
Well that was ? It had to be the later years of the 1930s.
RW:
1930s.
HH:
The depression was on at the worse.
RW:
What did the faculty think of this?
HH
Well, he didn't have too many friends on the faculty. There were
too many that were really bigger men then he was. That's where he
got his Little Charlie idea.
Judge John W. Wilson, of Butler.
OK
-23-
That's interesting to know. Then this is actually Dr. Morrow left,
the first President left as you were saying yesterday, possibly,
not of his own regard.
No, No.
He got into some particular trouble.
Yes, that was before my knowledge of Slippery Rock, and he went back
to his former job in Pittsburgh.
And then Dr. Maltby had to leave, then Dr. Eisenberg has to leave,
and now we're talking about another one had to leave, and so the
brief six year term that Dr. Miller held that was ironically the
major building program of the college, was it not?
Yeah.
1937, '38, '39 period?
Uh, Uh.
Was he instrumental in these buildings being built, or was another
member of the administration or faculty more instrumental than Dr.
Miller?
Well, he built North Hall, 1938. And that seemed to go over very
well. At that time that was a real satisfactory building for the
rooms and dining room and social room, reception hall, was very
satisfactory.
Its a beautiful building. Well then, you, during the term of Dr.
Miller, another important event in the history of the college,
would have been the fire of the old North Hall.
Yeah, the fire in 1937. It occurred on Homecoming Day and I've
forgotten just what date that was, I guess it was in late October.
OK. The papers that I've been reading have said, I believe, was
October 16th.
Maybe.
Or 17th, sometime around in there, and I read several different
accounts, and a real reason for the fire was never pinpointed,
however, some people said it was an ox roast.
Well, at the time they were roasting the beef for the Homecoming
luncheon, and the one report was that the grease has boiled over
and caught fire.
And that started the fire.
And that started the fire, and of course a lot of the old building
-24-
A nart of it was smeared over with
was original frame
brick, and old wood there
RW:
1888 it burned like paper,
Surely.
Yeah.
Well, then there were no casualties that you recall.
Purvis:sunr-a™.
•-
Km- rhev lost practically all their
,.
4-v>at- fiurinE or after the fire, that
Well, do you remember aching.
happened to the girls as far as
Xre di^the^live^then™ were X «&
The hoys were put out of South Hall, and many of the girls could
accomodate were taken in there.
RW:
Where did the boys go then?
HH:
. .
t fv,ink we had two of them in our home and
XLrXrX r-JtSttay. And then see the ^ f
i
r
s
t
f^^^errs^gon^:? right across from the
gymnasium on Main Street.
RW
OK.
Right, right.
HH
For the President and his family.
RW
OK. How long of a period of inconvenience was there before the
students were put back into a new dorm. Was a new dorm started,
the construction on a new dorm started right away or how long did
these boys live in the homes?
HH:
Well, let's see.
RW:
OK, go ahead.
HH:
They started to clear up the debris. Your grand uncle, I guess, Roy
Watson, bought a lot of the bricks and built a couple of houses out
of them, down on Elm Street and a lot of it was just carted down
into the area of the campus before you come to the present
? in
a depression there where it was dumped. Of course, there was only
a small basement in that old building, so there wasn't a whole lot
of debris to be taken away and then some junkman bought all the
refrigerators, the radiators and the piping, junk metal. And that
was soon carted away. Then they began excavating for the new
building. And as I recall they moved into it the next fall of '38.
In the meantime they built the President's residence and the
President moved in there, let's see, I think there was a third
building built back here.
They started to . . .
-25-
RW:
Hall^uilt :t%ha1tSmeL?brary
bUUt " th"
the S^-e
HH:
thehScfenceSHanlldinSS
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH
*"
at°Ut th6 Sa"e
OK. How about the Laboratory School?
tlm6' the Llbrary
and
Wasn't there a wing?
^iirSVri0n °f that Moratory School, was the Elementary
School and that was opened in '29.
OK.
And then they built the high school and in the meantime the old what
1
H°del Scho°1' 7 on the comer, that was used as the
aU
t*o tt
t T!° °? t?ree sections of it were college classes.
And then they built the high school, sort of northwest of the
elementary school, with the gymnasium along parallel with Elm
uooper Street.
In JaCt' I sti}1 Play basketball in that gymnasium, a couple
1
.,
® weeJ^» we play in the lab school gymnasium. Right. Well
actuallvSr*k^\ ? "*** ta^Gn int° the h°mes of townspeople, were
actually taken in for an entire year.
And the rest of that, let's see that was '37 and '38. I think thev
Z^utel" s'u™' faU °f '38 " 1 reC3U
I wouldn't be
RW''
exLnTp6^^6^078 ??Ved int° th6Se tOWn homes' and y°ur home for
example did the college pay you people for boarding these
students? Did you get any pay or remuneration?
HH:
jV' W?/KreJann'. 1 think $2-°° a week- If 1 remember rightly.
It would be $4.00 for the room. And then the next year we had
three faculty members.
RW
In your house?
HH
In our home.
RW
This will be, what is now the Alumni House?
HH
Yes.
RW
In the brick home?
HH:
They took two rooms on the third, second floor, then they used the
c°°r af 3 lou?ge* 1 don'C remember what they paid us for
that. So much a week. And they never had a key. We just let them
come and go, and we had a card for each one of them. Do you
remember the railing on the stairway?
RW:
Right.
Right?
Yes.
-26-
Tf they were standing up, that person was
^
HH:
iast one to turn a
card down, locked the door.
RW
Well, that's a good way of doing it.
HH:
Yeah.
RW
That probably worked very well.
HH
It worked perfectly.
RW
HH
RW:
HH:
RW:
ffl:
i
t-hat fire at North Hall.
That must have been a real shock, that
,
uah from it began to affect the slate on
Oh, it was, yes. And the
spraying up on that and
Old Main, and they finally got "water
^ ^ was an exciting?
prevented the building from catcning rr •
fo^thMe^women^tudents^who^ere^i^th^forStory'and seeingCall^
of their possessions going up in flame .
the0I^SatSthatatimeingAndtshenca^f over^o'our house5telephone
her folks. She was quite a site at the time.
I can imagine. Oh my. Well then, there was one other fire that
I've come across. 1928 I believe. An old, it was just a small
fire in the gymnasium, I think. One of the gymnasiums
It had a
picture of a bucket brigade of some of the women students who
helped to put this fire out. I don't think it was a very big ire,
I think it was just a small fire.
I was trying to recall of any situation like that.
don't.
At the moment I
I don't think it was a very big fire.
It couldn't have been, or I would have recalled it.
OK. Well, then, now we're in 1940, and little Charlie or Dr.
Miller was asked to leave and do you recall then what happened in
preparation for the new president, or was it pretty much by
application and then
1H:
Dale, Dale, my, maybe you recall.
W:
McMaster?
HH:
McMaster was, well he was a member of the Board of Trustees at
Indiana. He was principal of Johnstown Schools and he had wanted
to be President of Indiana but he was at the same time a member of
the board and they wouldn't let him. Then this happened and our
-27-
Slippery Rock Board took him up. He was graduated from Grove City
in the class of 1908, known in the community favorably, but within
a year he was messed up with
some finances, I never knew exactly what, and he was, the day he
was to go before the court, election day 1940?
RW:
Would that be 1941?
HH:
'41.
RW
Where did that take place?
HH
Right in the home there. The new residence of the president, and
his wife reported that he had had a heart attack and they got the
mortician from Jamestown to come and get his body. The question
came out, the answer came out that he put the bullet through his
head.
RW:
Well, then was his wife present when he shot himself or was she not
in the house?
HH:
She had gone into the library. You see, the southeast corner of the
home is the library, and that's where he performed the act.
RW
Well he was only there for what one and a half years?
HH:
A year and a quarter.
RW:
Year and a quarter.
HH
Just until the November election day.
RW
Well, then did not anyone ever find out why or what financial
problems he had?
HH
Oh I guess it was in regard to some loans and the like.
RW:
Personal loans to him or loans to the school?
HH
Sponsored I think. I don't know, of course there was never any
trial. He was dead, buried.
RW:
How did the faculty and students and other administrators feel about
this? Were they shocked? Was he a well-liked man?
HH:
Oh yes, it was a big shock to us.
RW:
Was he liked more than Dr. Miller by the faculty and
HH:
Well, yes. There was a sort of a sadness to it, that such a thing
could happen to a man passed middle age, a man who had stood high
in his community as Superintendent of Johnstown Schools. We
couldn't appreciate such an act. Of course, that's when Dr. ? was
the Dean, and very highly regarded, so two of us, Dr. Waldron and
He shot himself.
Do you remember?
-28-
It was the 2nd that year.
But ....
nr
I , I don't know whether you knew Dr.
RW:
HH:
Waldron or not.
I've seen his name occur several times.
s.
i-hp other day. And he and I went
I had a letterni^°m0f1the board in the meantime, Dr. Jarsman had
around to a number of ^
and requested the board to
been made to act. flnd
he was then made permanent
ss.ss.'snr.rtj£S: «
retirement age in 1946.
RW:
Well then, in 1941, between November and January of 1942, there was
no president, well no real president?
HH:
Dr. Jarsman was acting president.
RW:
Well acting
HH:
A man to act, yes
RW:
Fine.
HH:
Oh yes.
RW:
I guess you always have one person who doesn't like you.
HH:
He had a, rather pet dog, and he would take it out on leash. Finish
exercise ? walking by this particular one in an alley and he came
up and called him all sorts of an S.O.B. for leading a dog around.
RW:
Ah, well, that's ....
HH:
He was well, we knew him as a big mouth.
RW:
Was he, was this person, the big mouth, was he on the faculty?
HH:
No, he wasn't.
RW:
He was in the town?
HH:
He just lived in town.
^
HH:
RW:
OK.
Dr. Entz must have been a well-liked man.
He was very highly regarded by everybody but one person.
^42 tc^'46
St"^
S°°d.
Well then, Dr. Entz was president from
Yeah.
important?^0^ renle,nber
about
Dr. Entz that you think would be
HH:
the Spring semester*" that^^ia
over, well, from ^42 to
-29-
beginning of
^much
he retired at the
late Janua^-
RW:
OK.
HH:
The four years and a month that he served. Then it was a quiet, if
you'd known Dr. ?. Maybe you did, as a boy there.
RW:
No, No I didn't.
HH:
He was a man who didn't make a show of things. He was able. He had
an honorary doctor's degree and also an honorary one from Grove
City and he had spent his whole life in teaching and he had been,
let's see, where was he when he came here, I've forgotten now. He
had been there a number of years as Dean of Instruction and it was
sort of just a step on to be president. And he had a wife that was
quite acceptable socially, no children.
RW:
No children. Well then did, let's see.
died of when . . . .
HH:
Died in his infancy.
RW:
Well then Dr. Eisenberg had no children?
HH:
No.
RW:
Well then there's ....
HH:
Then Charlie Miller.
RW:
Did he have any children?
HH:
He had four sons and a daughter. And he and his wife are both
graduates of Allegheny. And Allegheny took him in, when he left
Slippery Rock, and I think most of his children then graduated at
Allegheny. I don't know what's happened to them. He's still
living as far as I know. His wife died, then he married his
secretary at Slippery Rock.
RW:
Well ....
HH:
And had another son. She was much younger than he. And as far as I
know he's still living. But he'll be, oh he'd be in his 80's
anyhow. He wasn't quite as old as I am, was.
RW:
I'm sure he's not in as good as physical health as you either.
HH:
Well. I question whether he is. And then he was followed, as I
said by Dr. Eisenberg or Dr. Houk and ? retired and took his
pension and moved back to his home community where he was born.
And Dr. Houk, Dale Houk.
RW:
Right.
HH:
Assistant County Superintendent of Allegheny County was selected.
Dr. Maltby had one son who
Only the adopted daughter, who lives up here at Sandy Lake
-30-
?
RW:
HH:
RW:
* v lpft of his own accord then. He had
Well then when Dr. ?
t! vesterday, that he was the only one
resigned and you mentioned her y
ngver had any force behind
to y-r knowledge,^ho had le£tstta
him to leave.
inac
ui
and fit into the community very well,
No, he was considered caPa^®!
od attender, good advisor.
A good churchman, but not active, g
well then he retired in '46.
Now did he then, you probably were
there a few more months.
I was there until the end of August '46.
Then you also were a faculty member when Dr. Houk was there?
yeah.
He had his freshman y-atJlippery *ock. Uved withMs
class
bu^I hid him in'a play, Charlie's Aunt
I coached a number
ofplays. I had been in a number as a student and I must have
gained some little reputation along that line.
RW:
I'm sure you did.
HH:
And so I was chosen three or four to train three or four different
plays as well as the commencement speakers.
RW:
OK
HH:
Everything alright?
RW:
Yeah, everything's fine.
HH:
And, of course, Dr. ? had given me resignation. They knew they had
already elected Dr. Houk to come right on to take over the first of
the semester.
RW:
Well, what was Dr. Houk like then. What type of a man was he as
compared to, you said that Dr. ? was fairly quiet and . .
HH:
Yeah.
RW:
. . . but very capable?
HH:
Well, he was a little more forceful. I wouldn't call him scholarly
He was rather an ordinary school man. And he served what, ten and
a half years as I recall, of course he retired, he served, he
served a half year while I was still on the faculty, well from
January to the end of August. I knew him very well. I called him
Dale. And we were always friendly. Oh, he was to see me here just
a few months ago. He and Joe, Joe, the undertaker.
RW:
Ligo.
HH:
Yeah.
What type of man was Dr. Houk?
They were here to see me.
-31-
I knew Joe quite well.
Well he
I Q /O ^V 1
^ funeral and I don't know what happened to Dale during
194.. the end well from January 1946. I never, of course I was
gone. I never knew what caused him to lose out. You'd have to set
&
somebody else from that period.
RW:
OK.
But, as far as you knew, Dr. Houk, did he have a Ph.D.
also,
HH:
Well.
RW:
As far as you knew that he was a fairly well accepted man into the
college community?
HH:
Yes.
RW:
I ve heard from a couple other people who knew Dr. Houk quite well
and said that he was a very accepted man and that he was most
responsible and as you said he was somewhat an ordinary school man
yet he always seemed to have the knack to do what was, what seemed
to be right at the time.
HH:
Yeah yeah. And he was the son of a preacher, and he was as I
thought a pretty good preacher's son. I knew his father. He was
the pastor at the church over in Hooker.
RW:
Oh yes, right, right.
HH:
I think he was born when his father was pastor at Bruin so he was a
native of the area too. He had had his first year at Slippery
Rock 1 think he had graduated from Park College, Missouri
And
then he got his doctorate at Pittsburgh, if I recall. He was well
enough educated but I don't know what happened.
RW:
Well I'll have to, I'm sure I could find a couple of people who had
worked with Dr. Houk.
HH:
I'll bet you Arthur Vincent would be able to give you some intimate
data on that.
RW:
OK.
HH:
I don't know who else.
RW
Did you know Arthur's wife Leila, Leila Vincent?
HH
Oh, I helped graduate her in 1917. I always greet her whenever I
meet her, and she always greets me. I was sorry for her that she
had that fall, crippled her. Has she gotten pretty well over that.
RW:
Yes, yes, I think she's gotten better.
HH:
That's good.
RW:
She's gotten better.
I thought so.
-32-
-w rheir first child was the kind of
It was a sort of handicap tha
^ she>s stm living.
person that she was, oris,
I don't know too much about them,
w
I assume yes.
1 001
? very well. I knew Norman his older
ffl; Then, of course, I knew Nev^^ hlgh school and then we
brother much bette5',
Petersburg,
in St.
hobnobbed very much down In
nf _v family, the Watsons, did you know?
IV:
Oh.
well, What members of my family,
ffl.
THP one that married the oldest
ffl:
^Smarried°? he £d a lot of stonework for me .
daughter
Graham.
What.
Graham.
No
Oh, what was, Will, Billy, William, his son was head of the
police force there. Oh, why can't I recall his name.
Not Sanderson?
What.
Sanderson.
No.
or Wicks?
Well, I know the Wicks too, they're related to the Watsons.
OK.
Oh, Kelly.
Kelly.
Yes, he was married to the oldest Watson girl.
Right.
And
And tl
then there was Fred.
Maybe he was dead before you came in?
Right.
tlZlh vrS' Ka11Z' 111611 there was the one that married Dr.
W?S dead before you "ere born.
rnnr!p Pof 2!
And then of
course Roy who was the storp.kppiior
-33-
RW.
Right.
OK.
Edwin Markham.
When did he come to Slippery Rock.
HH.
He was there, I don't know whether I can recall the year, but he was
there and lectured and read some of his poetry, and I had one of
his books of poems and he autographed it for me. That would be,
maybe I can recall, I had heard it, I was visiting my wife's uncle
and his wife in Lewisburg, and he was lecturing there and ?.
RW:
I didn't come across anything in the local newspaper. Maybe I
didn't find that article or that particular edition. Was this in
the 30s that he was there, 20s and 30s?
HH:
I would say along in the middle or later 30s. Of course, I don't
have that book anymore, or I could figure it out. I passed it
along with some of the others to some of the children. I was going
to say something else there. I don't have it.
RW:
I read where Robert Frost was also at the college at onetime.
you there?
HH:
No.
RW:
I'm not sure when that was. I think in the very late
'40s or early '50s. I'm not sure, but I don't recall that.
HH:
This was perhaps after I left. We did have, there were two brothers
[who were] lecturers, Charles and Thomas, they were North Carolina
boys, the one was, well we had both of them there, well, I don't
think of it now. We had some able lecturers there on the Lyceum,
five or six every winter, music or lectures.
RW:
What do you recall about, I keep reading about the complication
between two literary societies. The Bryan Literary Society and
what was the other's name.
HH:
Philomathea.
RW:
Philomathea, yeah. Did you have anything to do with
those at any time?
HH:
Oh yes. I was president of the Bryan twice in my junior and in my
senior year and I debated a couple of times.
RW:
Was there really that much competition between the two?
HH:
Quite a good deal, and yet it was friendly.
RW:
That's what I seem to understand.
HH:
Yes, it was a friendly competition.
and any scandal of any sort.
RW:
Well, I've come across some beautiful, engraved stationary and
beautiful engraved announcements from the Bryan and the
-34-
Were
We had our ? up to each other
j
come iust beautiful
Philomathea, inviting P"P£^%£w real pride in their literary
invitations and evidently
societies.
ffl:
.W:
^
yjell,
we
would have 100
Well they did. We paid $.25 a
k up a little money and we
or more mLbers. Well that would stack p
^ a
were careful in managing it. iney
^ terms then, and we
program at the beginning of each
bulletin board in the hall
had each society had a
"nrogram of the week each week,
of Old Main where we put up th P
nil be some of the major changes, as compared
What would you say would be som
^ q£ ^ times you were a
with the time youpwere"®^ were there many sports or athletic
events^or^nything°like^hat'when you were a student originally.
well, there was a little baseball in the spring, ^ic^fe^other^
football, and a little in "sketbal
^ time I went back on
5 bejaculty^in
spring^' Never'hfd a'coach that I know of for tennis,
rd played
some tennis, we'd just play
Well we had some track^ The old
gymnasium now has a track and stairs. And we did some cross
country running.
Well that's interesting. I think what I'll do is, I think I'll go
•1
1
j
t-u.'e
r>nu
Thank VOU.
-35-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Dora Morrison Johnson
Interviewer:
Donald Kelly
DK:
Mrs. Johnson when did you start as a student of Slippery Rock Normal
School?
DJ:
Well I started as a student in Slippery Rock Normal in the Fall of
1912, and at that time my name was Dora Morrison.
DK:
I understand that you had a long term connection with the school and
that your father was an employee of the school, is that true?
DJ:
That's true. He was over the dining room and did the buying of the
food for the college.
DK:
And what was his name Dora?
DJ:
Samuel Gettus Morrison.
DK:
How long did he work for the University?
DJ:
I can't tell you that.
DK:
. . . As long as you remember at least.
DJ:
As long as I remember...
DK:
Back into your childhood he was always employed there.
DJ:
But I was the youngest of six children.
DK:
How many of your brothers and sisters also attended Slippery Rock
Normal School?
DJ:
I had three sisters, two brothers and myself.
Slippery Rock Normal.
DK:
You all graduated.
DJ:
All.
DK:
Well that's amazing.
DJ:
My oldest sister graduated in 1901, and one graduated in, I think
1902. They were among some of the first people to graduate from
the normal school.
DK:
In those days everybody thought in terms of preparing to become
teachers. Did you ever teach, Mrs. Johnson?
DJ:
Yes I did.
I know for several years.
We all graduated from
I graduated in 1916 and I was married in 1917.
-36-
My
husband, Charles A.
out of the service married wo
After he came
t into the service.
^
^ allowed to teach any
longer.
DK:
DJ
,
„
-w.r nretty standard throughout Pennsylvania,
Oh, is that true? Was that pretty
that married women did no
• , raaT, was allowed to teach. I could have
sub^tu^d" nidtrSaching at East McKeesport and I could
substitute, but I could not teach.
DK
DJ
DK
DJ
Could married men teach?
Married men could teach but married women could not teach.
Does that sound a little unfair to you today?
T T-Mnk that it's very unfair because you pay for your
Well I think tnat
J
teacher
Then you can't teach
education, you prepare to be a teacner.
y
because you're married.
TJ N
DK
Where did you say your first teaching job was?
DJ
My first teaching job was at Ifft School.
DK:
Where is that?
DJ:
Well...it's about four miles out of Slippery Rock.
school and I taught one term there.
DK
I believe that it's four miles East of Slippery Rock, isn't it?
Near what today would be route eight. Is that the location?
DJ
Yes.
DK
And where else did you teach?
DJ
In East McKeesport. I went from there, to East
McKeesport. Chuck went into the service and I went to East
McKeesport and taught there.
DK:
For One year.
DJ:
One Year.
DK
What grades did you teach?
DJ
I taught third and fourth grade in East McKeesport.
DK
...and you taught all eight grades at Ifft School...
DJ:
I taught all eight grades a Ifft School
T r r f-
It was a country
It was near Adams Corners.
C
A1
-37-
DK:
Do you have any interesting little anecdotes, any funny little
stories from either Ifft School or East McKeesport that you could
share with us?
DJ:
Well I had thirty-six children at the Ifft School at Adams Corners.
DK:
Were they all perfect little students, or were there some little rap
scallions there?
DJ.
I had two youngsters, Isabelle Adams and Genavive Mathews. Isabelle
Adams' dad was on the board. Genavive Mathews' dad, he thought
that he could run the school. So, they insisted on talking all the
time. When you have as many classes as I had in eight grades, it's
pretty hard to teach and have a couple of kids talking. I had
asked them to please stop talking, but no, every little bit they
would start talking to each other. I finally said "would every
person lay down your pencils and books and just sit in your seat."
So the youngsters all did that. I said "Genavive, would you please
come to the front of the room?" So she came to the front of the
room. Now I said "You face the students and talk for five
minutes." She said " I don't have anything to say." I said "I
don't care what you say, but you are going to stand here until you
talk for five minutes." So she finally started talking. I don't
remember today what she said, but she stood there for five minutes
and talked. That ended the talking between she and Isabelle Adams.
DK:
What happened then?
DJ:
Well then Isabelle Adams, because her dad was on the school board,
she thought she could run things. So I had to put her in her
place. I told her, I said "Because your dad is on the school
board, you're not telling me what to do . . . you just forget about
your dad being on the school board and get down to work." So that
put her in her place. Those were the two that I had the most
trouble with.
But that ended it.
DK:
Would you say that your training for the four years at the Normal
School prepared you pretty well to handle these incidents that you
encountered in the classroom?
DJ:
Well it did because, as professor Stuart always said "The kids who
went through model school could just judge a teacher as she walked
across the room." Up 'til fifth grade we had five teachers each
day. We changed teachers every forty-five minutes and then in six
weeks we got five new teachers. Then from sixth grade on we had
seven teachers each day. We changed teachers every forty-five
minutes and got new teachers every six weeks. We had to take
examinations every six weeks.
DK:
Now these were student teachers...
DJ:
And these were student teachers being trained in their senior year,
to go out and teach.
-38-
DK:
,«
When I came through the system
You used the term "m°deJ SC
laboratory school,
they were referring to it as a
DJ
No, it was model school then.
It was called the model school then.
It was
a model school and we had that clear through high school.
aisssstta.'ssr-s.'"°f -"llw
|J:
professor Ireesman.
Pr°P«S°*^f ™ee
t
grades.
We h«l three
^^""thrniX tenth, and the eleventh grades. They were high
School: The first eight grades were just supplementary school I
guess. Or just plain school.
DK
Elementary school?
DJ
Elementary school.
DK
That is a little different system than most people are familiar with
today. You think by having all of those student teachers you began
to recognize what good teaching was?
DJ:
You could certainly tell in about five minutes what kind of a
teacher you were going to have. We had some really good teachers
and we had some that of course were not. Just like today.
DK:
As a student at the model school would you say those students became
experts at not only recognizing poor teaching but maybe being a
little rough on the poor teachers? I ask that question because I
remember as a student at the laboratory school, and I'm not proud
of it, but sometimes we were not as kind as we might have been, to
the poor student teachers.
DJ:
We pulled a number of things on them. We knew what we could pull on
them because they were inexperienced and some of them should have
never been school teachers.
DK:
But those that you recognized as competent, you showed them respect
immediately, listened, and behaved.
DJ
Oh yes. There were good teachers. A number of them were good
teachers. Every six weeks we had an honor roll. I'm not boasting
but I was always on the honor roll. I
always
into
the
back
seat
people
tosat
have
see
ver
me
°
DK:
thing^ometimesT^Did'that^other'you?
-39-
" embarrassinS
DJ
No. I didn't find it because I was only five-eight, five feet eight
inches tall. But there were four girls, us, who sat in the corner,
in the back.
DK:
Today there are quite a few women who are five foot eight, but I
imagine, in your era, five foot eight was quite tall for a woman.
DJ:
Well it was tall, yes.
tall.
DK:
Our sizes are changing.
DJ:
Times have changed certainly.
through model school.
DK:
Who were some of your favorite college professors and why? Could
you name some names? Those that you have particularly fond
memories of.
DJ:
You mean in the Normal School?
DK:
Yes.
DJ
Professor Stuart, he was over the whole model school, a wonderful
man. He was kind but firm. When he spoke, we listened. If a
teacher could not make it, he would come in and teach the class.
You really learned in forty-five minutes. He really was wonderful
in so many ways. He was kind but he was firm and what he said, he
did.
DK:
Was he at Slippery Rock for a lengthy period of time?
DJ:
Professor was there just when I was a little kid, but not for very
long. Professor Stuart was there practically the whole time I went
to model school. He was still there after I left model school.
DK:
After you graduated from college as well, he was still there?
DJ:
Yes, he was still there when I graduated from college. I remember,
when I was in normal school, I did my practice teaching in the
second grade, seventh, and the eleventh grade in high school.
DK
What were your favorite subjects to study and to teach?
DJ:
Math.
DK:
You enjoyed studying math and teaching math.
DJ:
I liked math, art, and English.
DK:
Well that disturbs me.
DJ:
I liked geography but I hated history.
There were other people in my room that were
Persons are getting taller...
It was an education alone, to go
I hated history.
-40-
DK:
DJ
DK:
.,
And here, you are becoming
Now isn't that a shame.
I never liked history.
nart of history and you didn't like it.
P
I couldn't see any sense in it.
Isn't that
funny.
teachers? ^onld"^^'^ "eir°faul« "ta Sltlu^our
fault?
DJ
, time
.
, _ I
t ufle
troinE through model school it didn't
seem
No, at the
when
wm going cnr ^
^
i
to bother me
But when I ventup into
Murphy taught
thing that ®a ®
m®
that was in that book, almost.
learn every date
When°he gave examinations it was just dates dates, dates all the
time. There wasn't much else to it, just dates.
DK:
I think if I would have had a teacher like that I would not have
liked history either. So I'll forgive you because I certainly
would not have liked history taught like that.
DJ
It was just from 1492 straight through every date.
terrible.
DK:
Well, I know one professor that you liked very much, Professor
Stuart. Then the other professor that you didn't like, Professor
Murphy. Are there any others that you thought were particularly
good and had an influence on you? Other than Professor
Stuart...Who was president?
DJ:
Dr. Moffit was president.
year.
DK:
He was followed by Dr. Entz.
DJ:
Oh I liked him. He was a good teacher. I can tell you none of the
downtown kids liked Professor Hamm. He picked on the town kids.
That is true. He was nick-named "bruiser Hamm." One day in class I
was taking Cesar and I never used a pony. I did my own
translating. It was a bridge chapter. He had called on another
student to translate the chapter and there was a good bit of it
that she couldn't do. So he said to me, "now Miss Morrison we will
see what you can do". He talked through his nose all the time. So
I stood up and translated it. There were a couple of words that I
1 n t get. I said, "Professor, there are a couple of words I can't
get in this bridge chapter." He said to me, "Miss Morrison it is
your business to get those words in there." He just irked me. I
"Sin
anything ba<*
i-n lS!SS?rJ 3T' 1
ST-Sn^E
DK:
Oh, it was
The year I graduated, 1916, was his last
t0 a teacher be^re
1 kneW everything
He said to
sat down.
«•
I think that is a pretty good answer.
-41-
but I said to him,
I wouldn't be here. I
y°u
may
DJ:
When I got my card, report card, that year I expected him to point
me.
But he gave me ninety-five.
DK:
Well see he didn't hold it against you personally.
grade at least.
DJ:
But he was so mean with many of the town kids. Then he had his pets
that stayed up in the dorm. There was a Miss McKella, she could do
nothing wrong. But George McQuiston, Scott Hockenberry, Paul
Harbaugh, and the town kids, the girls and the boys, they couldn't
do anything right. There would be certain ones in a family that he
would pick on. He picked on some of my older brothers and sisters,
one sister especially: one time he went over to Germany and she was
hoping the ship would sink. So I was sort of waiting for him. But
that was the only time he ever said anything to me. That was the
only time I ever said anything.
DK:
You mentioned your two brothers and three sisters that also
graduated. We have the image that all these folks that went to the
Normal School taught for the rest of their lives. It might be
interesting if you shared with us what your other family members
and yourself ended up doing.
DM:
My mother taught school. My father did not. My oldest sister
taught first primary in Pittsburgh, my older sister Sarah. Then
May, she taught school in Pittsburgh. My brother Stewart, he
taught school, his first term he taught out at Brown Town. Then he
went west and taught school out in Minnesota before going into the
automobile business. My brother Newt, he taught school and then
went into the banking business. He was a bank examiner. My sister
Delula she taught school in Pittsburgh and then took up medicine.
She practiced medicine in Cleveland and in California.
DK:
Where did she attend medical school?
DJ:
She attended medical school in Pittsburgh.
DK:
At the University of Pittsburgh?
DJ:
At the University of Pittsburgh.
DK:
So most of her life was spent as a physician not as a teacher?
DJ:
Yes. Then I taught those two years. Then they wouldn't let married
women teach. So I took up the beauty business. I had my own
beauty shop in New Castle. Then Chuck and I came back to Slippery
Rock because my father had passed away. I opened a shop in
Slippery Rock. I worked in Slippery Rock until 1973. I worked
from 1931 to 1973.
DK:
How old were you when you finally closed your shop?
DJ:
I was seventy-eight years old.
-42-
Not by using a
DK:
DJ:
You worked until you were seven y
at seven o'clock in the morning. I
And I got up and opened my sh P
^worked Saturdays. I was
took a half day off on Wedine
y ,
but j had t^e business and
sort of foolish to work so
y ^ o>c[ock in the morning. And I
people were glad to com a
^
Not that ghe was down in
t-nni( care of my mother ror rwexvc j
twelve years, but she needed me.
bed
DK:
for
Some attention at least
I intended to^you
eightnwhen you finally gave up the beauty shop, how old are you
now?
t fpll and broke my hip.
DJ
couldn't have worked anyway.
When I came
~r-ry.Lc:r":...
I'm ninety-three years old.
ninety-three the second day of December.
DK
The university was 100 year old in 1989 and you were ninety-three in
1988.
DJ:
I was born December second, 1895.
DK:
You are only six years younger than the university.
remarkable isn't it.
DJ
And mentally I'm perfect.
with this broken hip.
DK:
I think that anyone who hears this interview will certainly know
that you are in a perfect mental state. Do you have any other
memories of your years as a student at the Normal School that you
might like to share; anything that I have not asked you that you
would like to share?
DJ:
Well I would like to say this. When I was in school, we had a class
at 7:45 am and it lasted until 8:30. At 8:30 we had chapel, a
religious service over in the chapel. All the students and the
teachers were expected to go there. That service lasted until
9:00. Then from 9:00 we had classes until 4:15. Another thing;
we had two societies, the Philomathean and the Bryan literary
societies. These met on Saturday nights. All the students, at the
dorm and the students down town, and the students that stayed at
home all had to be in at seven on week nights. The only evening
that we could be out past seven-o-clock was Saturday nights.
Saturday nights we had to be in at ten-o-clock.
DK:
Even though you lived in your own home, the same rules applied as
though you lived in the dorm?
DJ:
There were a number of faculty that lined in town and they checked
on the town people. We had to be in and we knew we had to be in.
That is pretty
Physically I'm okay only I'm handicapped
-43-
DK:
How did you feel about that?
Did you resent that?
DJ:
No, because it was just the same as everyone else. All of them had
to be in. At the dorm lights had to be out at ten-thirty. But our
lights did not have to be out at home. Oh, another thing; when we
entered the Normal School we had to take examinations. We had to
pass these tests before we could enter in the Fall. Then before we
graduated we had to take state boards. If we did not pass the
state board examinations we didn't get to graduate.
DK:
How many times could you take the state boards?
you have the right to take it again?
DJ:
You had to go back to school and make up those classes that you
failed in. The state board came from Harrisburg. This is sort
something that is sort of ridiculous. I played basketball, we had
a girls team. It was a Normal team. The boys were not allowed to
watch the girls play. In the gym there was a balcony, which is
still up there. Two of our best basketball players one day decided
that they were going to watch the girls play basketball: Jimmy
Oris and Dick Dellis. It was discovered that they did watch us
play. So those two boys were both sent home, never allowed to come
back to school, just because they watched us play basketball.
DK:
Even though they were star basketball players the school was willing
get rid of them.
DJ:
Boy were we burned up.
DK:
Did they consider this as being something sexual, that they would
watch the girls play basketball? What did they fear?
DJ:
I don't understand it because we had to wear middies, bloomers that
came down below the knees, and stockings. It was ridiculous.
DK:
I have seen pictures of the uniforms and it would be hard for me to
imagine those uniforms being provocative in any sense.
DJ:
I played center and shot fouls.
That was plain stupid.
DK:
These young men never came back to school?
DJ-
They were never allowed to. I think it is about time that they
start waking up here and start sending a few home. Then maybe they
would not have so much trouble with drinking.
DK-
You think while some of the rules that you had to live under may
have been extreme and silly that maybe today we could use some of
those rules.
DJ*
If they would send a few of them home and allow them to come back,
it would straighten some other people up, I think. They allow them
If you failed did
That was not fair.
I liked it, but that was silly.
-44-
A it la ridiculous.
They walk these streets and
out all night and
,.
thev want to do.
get drunk and do everything they
. _n o t so much the school, but in our concept
I think the difference
^
uke that> like the one you
of law. Because t0 ** y '
n g m e n that were sent home without a
described with th° s ®
?
l d s u e the University and probably
hearing, those two ^n today co
^
^ Qf thQse
win. This is what would happen t
7;
^ flnd w h a t e v e r f i f t h
-**
probably
court system today they could probably win.
sue-
In
our
T didn't know that. But I know that there has been peepers around
A 2LL was a student who came to my door and wanted to use the
rfJJnne
He came to the back door and he did not want in to use
my telephone. I don't know what he wanted in for but I did not let
him in.
Well I think in your case: your age and a woman living alone that
is what you should have done.
They said up at the college, I contacted them up there. Well in
fact I called the police here and they said that they would have to
give him a hearing. They gave him a hearing and the same person
had been peeping through windows but they never suspended him.
They never did anything. They said he said he was drunk. I don't
believe he was drunk. He knew what he wanted in for, he wanted in
to use my telephone. If he was drunk he would not have known.
Well it's certainly a different world.
They were too strict in a lot of things when I was young.
are too lenient in some things.
Now they
We do tend to go from one extreme to the other don't we.
I don't know how they are going to stop, or where they are going to
stop, or when they are going to stop.
How many students were in your graduating class?
TCiere were 112 students in my class. There were twelve boys. One
boy was in the service. We were all four year students. G r a d u a t e d
in a four year course. We could teach from first grade
through
b
high school.
y^Ur^er! thouSh-
one or
didn°t
t h e r e w e re
a lot of people did get what they
certificates. They would only go to college for
S J 1 C O u l d t e a c h ' i n s o m e cases.
tZ
I know you
B u t s o m e P e °Ple could, could they not?
a^ermanent^certificate
j°. r e a c h
years until we could get
u r years to do that two year
teaching
The-r*
g. There are some people who could not afford to go four
-45-
years. They would go two years. Then every summer they had to go
to school. They had to get so many credits before they could get a
certificate. To get a permanent certificate, they had to work on.
Some people had to go to school all the time, every summer.
DK:
Until they had gotten all the credits they needed for the permanent
certification.
DJ:
But the 112 that graduated in our class all had permanent
certificates.
DK:
I know that you may not remember this, but do you remember about how
many were in the Normal School not just your class but all the
classes put together. What was the total population of the Normal
school, approximately? Like today there are about 7000.
DJ:
I would say there might have been 500. I would say that would be
the top figure. There were 112 in our class.
DK:
Mrs. Johnson, since I have known you for a long time and have heard
you speak occasionally about your days in the normal school, I
heard you talk about something called flag fights. This is
something I never heard of. What is a flag fight?
DJ:
They had the two literary societies and they would have flag fights.
What they would do is one society would put a flag up on top of the
boy's dorm. Then the boys from the other society would go up and
take it down and put theirs up. Then they would try to find out
who was doing it. If they found them out, which they did, they
would expel them from school for six weeks. Then they could come
back.
DK:
Well, that could be dangerous up on top of those dormitories
couldn't it.
DJ:
The boy's dormitories is what they used. I remember one fella who
got caught and he was expelled for six weeks. When he went home
his dad told him to go and get himself a job, and when he could
behave himself after the six weeks you go back through school. He
happened to be lucky enough to get himself a job on a farm. He
worked for six weeks and came back. His dad put him back in
school. He graduated and went on and taught. (In a whisper) That
was my brother!
DK:
(Laughter) I heard you whisper something there.
say it out loud?
DJ:
Well that was my oldest brother. (Laughter)
DK:
(Laughter)...That is better. (Still laughing)...Stewart, was that
the name?
DJ:
That was my brother Stewart.
-46-
Are you afraid to
DK:
DJ:
T ,wr think that it hurt him any either way,
Well, considering, I don t c
it was something
for gix weeks.
either the job or being ^
f
His
father
at least had to
0
that his father could not pp
different kind of behavior,
let him know that he expected some an
.„
Another thing I wanted to
students graduating in
y
that in 1913 there were only twelve
^ ciass. The rest were all
^
then Qn there was no
three^ear cLss" Ttlt was the beginning of the four year course.
DK:
That is quite a difference.
112 in your class for the four year.
.
DJ:
In 1916 and then there was only twelve.
DK:
Very early the normal school began to expand and become a degree
granting institution, giving full bachelor degrees.
DJ:
As a whole
we knew we
individual
boards you
DK:
You mentioned that at least one of your class mates went to the Army
in WW I. Did any of the young men lose their lives in WW I that
you went to school with that you know of?
DJ:
No. Hersh came home. He lived through the war. He graduated with
the class. He was not there but there was a chair draped with the
American flag.
DK:
That is a nice, nice symbol.
DJ:
On commencement day it was sad because Dr. Maltby did not want to
retire. But at that time the state took over. So he no longer
could be president. So he said good-bye to us and we said good-bye
to him. Then he and Mrs. Maltby moved to Grove City. Professor
Moore filled in until they got some person from the state.
DK:
You enjoyed Dr. Maltby then I take it.
DJ:
Dr. and Mrs. Maltby were very lovely people. The students all liked
him and Dr. Maltby was strict and he had reason to be. He had nice
students and they respected him.
DK:
Did he live out his life at Grove City then?
DJ:
He lived the rest of his life in Grove City. He and Mrs
Maltby
had an apartment in the girl's dormitory, first and second floor
DK:
There was no separate president's home at that time?
DJ:
No.
we had a nice time. The teachers were strict with us and
had to take state board. So it was up to you as an
to buckle down and learn. And if you didn t pass state
couldn't graduate.
-47-
DK:
Well can you think of anything else that you would like to add
before we terminate the interview Mrs. Morrison?
DJ:
Well I could add some funny things but I am not going to.
DK:
Well we like funny things. Do you think they are better left
unsaid. Well thank you very much.
DJ:
I think that I said enough with what I said about Dr.
DK:
Well, Dr. Hamm is not around to get even with you so I don't think
you should worry about it. Thank you very much.
-48-
Hamm.
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Proj
Alumnus: Margaret Nelson
Interviewer:
Donald Kelly
DK:
our^oorfoSune^to"^
Nelson from the class of 1920.
DK:
Where was your home town?
MN:
Now?
DK:
No when you were a youngster.
Slippery Rock?
MN:
Utica, PA.
DK:
Utica, PA--where is that?
MN:
Vanango County, 10 minutes from Franklin on a farm 1/2 way between
Utica and New Lisbon. Utica was in Vanango County but my home is
in Mercer.
DK:
How did you come to choose Slippery Rock as your college?
MN:
I wanted to be a teacher and it was the closest at the time. I
thought I wanted to be a rural school teacher, so I took training
at Slippery Rock. It was then a state normal school, one of the
13.
DK
Did you take a 1 year course, 2 year course, or a 4 year course?
MN
Two.
DK
You took the two year course then and graduated in 1922.
MN
No, I graduated in 1920.
DK
Oh, I see.
MN
I went to Utica High School. It was a very one horse high school.
I had to catch up on some subjects at Slippery Rock. I took one
summer course too.
DK:
Did you graduate in Elementary Education or Secondary
J
Education?
MN:
DK:
Margaret
When did you decide to come to
I went in 1918.
was'; specialty811^^SCh°01'^
^d it-
So you planned to teach in one room country schools, probably?
-49-
«
MN:
Yes.
DK
Did you teach then in one room country schools?
MN:
Only for 3 years.
DK
For 3 years and where was that school?
MN:
That was called Crouters School in Mercer county near New Lisbon
which is near Sandy Lake.
DK:
I know where that is. And if it's not to sensitive, what prompted
you to leave Crouters School, after 3 years.
MN:
I just got the idea that somewhere I'd like to teach high school,
proceeded after those 3 years to Westminster and graduated in 1925
Then I taught in Parker.
DK:
Yes.
MN:
English.
DK
English and you taught at Parker High School?
MN:
Yes
DK
How many years did you teach at Parker?
MN:
Six years.
DK
I assume you continued to teach, but just changed school
districts. Is that right?
MN:
Yes. A friend, got a position for me at Oil City. So I was there
for 27 more years until I retired. Which makes 36 years teaching.
DK:
Well, I almost caught up with you.
MN:
You'll have to go one more year.
DK
I'll have to just keep up with you. That's for sure. Do you have
any memories of a teacher here a Slippery Rock, that had a strong
impact on you?
MN:
Oh, a number of them. I remember Mrs. Diament the physical
education teacher. I had great admiration for her and for Dr.
Hamm. I had him in 3 situations. We just looked at a book over
there, that my niece discovered, and it had a mention of him. He
taught Bible. I learned a lot there, and he taught psychology. We
had a little nature club too. There weren't many of us, but we'd
go out early in the morning on field trips. One distinct memory of
Dr. Hamm was, how apologetic he was for his face being swollen for
being exposed to poison ivy, he was a sight.
What was your major at Westminster?
-50-
I've got 35 years.
DK:
He was an outdoorsman then.
MN:
He felt he had no business appearing before all his classes.
DK-
I have heard of his. and I had seen Pictures, but obviously he was
before my time. I heard good reports of him. Who was president
when you were here then?
MN-
Dr Eisenberg and I had forgotten his name until the man on the bus
mentioned it
Dr. Linwood Eisenberg. I've been trying all week to
think of his first name.
DK:
And what was your impression of Dr. Eisenberg?
MN:
He was fine. I have some picture of him and his wife and his wife's
sister. They were both on faculty. She was dean of women, the
sister was. What was her maiden name?
I'll think of that on
way home.
DK:
I heard he was quite a disciplinarian.
MN:
Yes. He was very strict about things.
North Hall, and South was the mens.
DK:
Good thing you weren't in North in 1939.
MN:
That's when it burned?
DK
That's when it burned. But you were in the old North.
quite a beautiful building. I've seen pictures of i t .
MN:
Yes it was. They had one section of rooms called the towers rooms.
knew someone who lived in the towers and used to go
over and talk
&
to them.
DK:
MN:
DK:
MN:
traveling? arS ° f
But in this case It got hi*
ln
trouble.
Is that true?
Which was good.
t e a c h i n g y o u h a d s u n u n e rs
off.
I was in
That was
Did you do any
out : S n S ^ i y ?°' -p 1 f 0 0 k a c o u P l e °f trips to Canada then went
?
t i m e s through train, once by car, and once by
plane
plane to
to San
San Fr
Francisco.
R„t- ,-w
1
'
.Lu..
But that was later not earlier.
Western FA?'
lnterested
enough to take you away from
I think not.
DK:
elementfrrannecond:^" 8 ^^
about the occupation yw chose?
a f t « 36
DU y°U
years of
haVe
and
re8retS
MN:
what I wanted 6 to P do y "it* 1 b e f° r e 1 e v er began to teach that, that's
• -Lt really pays to feel that way too.
-51-
DK:
MN:
Do you feel it was a calling rather than a job?
n0t S°rry'
People
retiLdldT
retire. I say follow me and find out.
say what do
y°u
do
after you
DK
Well what do you do after
MN
Keep active in church and Sunday school, things like that.
DK
Is this in Oil City?
MN:
No, Franklin.
DK
What church are you active in?
MN
United Methodist church called Becker Church. It's out in, do you
know where Cochrenton is? There's a lady that takes me out there.
She comes for me. That's the reason I'm still going there.
DK:
I'm sort of shocked to find that your a member of this
United Methodist Church.
MN:
Oh you are.
DK:
Yes.
MN:
Westminster was one of my choices because I was United
Presbyterian.
DK:
Oh, well you saw the light. See my wife is a United Methodist
Psstor that's the reason I'm kidding you.
MN:
Last pastor we had, both him and his wife were pastors for United
Methodist Church.
DK:
Did you have Amy Twigg?
MN:
No, but I know about her though.
Creek.
DK
She's become a district superintendent now.
MN:
Oh that's right.
DK:
I was just kidding.
MN:
I could still enjoy the United Presbyterian Church but, the little
one in Utica broke up and had two but then decided to have one.
DK:
Did they do to you what they did to others in others churches? Do
they expect you, because your a teacher, to teach Sunday school as
well?
I live in Franklin, Rocky Grove.
-52-
She's minister out there in Sugar
MN:
I used to but not anymore.
DK:
i
I thought if I have
a Ht-tle stubborn and refused to.
these k dwl leet long they don't need me on the weekends too. I
made some people mad but I always refused.
MN:
I don't blame you.
DK:
MN:
t_ Ti
T rprfainlv don't have any regrets about being a
teacher
I was always satisfied with that. How would you compare
students? High school students when you started to teach them,
which would have been the late 1920's, as compared to the students
of your last year of teaching? Did you see any difference in their
attitudes in their behavior commitment to education?
Not a whole lot no. As the years went on so many more
interests they had. So you couldn't expect them to be as
interested as I was in participles and gerunds and sentences.
that's what I had.
So
DK:
I bet you just diagramed those kids to death.
MN:
That's the way I learned my English. I used to teach that in the
country school but got away from that in high school. I still
don't recommend it, but, it's the way I see my English still. I
will say for rural schools, and I was a pupil for rural schools,
that teachers were way ahead of their time. They were wonderful.
I look back on them and I will never forget them. They had to take
eight state exams at that time you probably never heard of such
things.
DK
Yes, I took one myself.
MN
Oh you did.
DK
Yes I did.
MN
I remember how proud our old school teacher was when she
found out that I was taking it, and that the children she had were
at the top
She was very proud of us. We had one lady who had
een an employee and a pal. She was ahead of her time she thought
t ?Vh®se mo?ern things to do like field trips, and things
that a lot of people in those days did not try to do. She took us
I ltatB Sch°o1' a.sled load. A farmer, a team of horses
niSht.
T'd
cKo°° U\°Vjr
I had never been over there, but
6
when ehp
tj
time. The whole community mourned
6 Wer®?. C verY nice to her successor because we
felt there wac
there was no one like Mrs. Stewart.
DK:
I'm not a youngster either.
aboutSit^ffiCUlt'
t0 follow a verY
popular person.
There's no doub
MN:
a'common'older
2e
-53-
^
^
DK:
MN:
iriust°rnLJcUSt^haVe,-t5uality>
it just comes automatically.
they d°n't
have to earn respect
when the teacher came home with the kids and
I^LW!£e
6
ni
She
was over our house a good many a times.
nir.t-h0y
iMy
mother was very fond of her. She traveled from home to home. She
also had a permanent place right next to the school.
DK:
When you started to teach were they still following the
IITHZ* that they did in some districts of firing in the spring
rehiring in the autumn--at the lowest level salary. Did they
J
do that in your day?
MN
I can't answer that very well, I know I never missed a pay.
DK
And did you get a raise every year you were teaching?
MN
Yes, do you want to guess how much I started with?
1921.
This was in
DK:
Oh I'll say $1200.
MN:
$75 a month.
DK:
$75 a month!
MN:
Second year $85 and third year $100. There were times when some
teachers didn't receive their pay for that month they had to wait
but I never missed a pay in all the years that I taught.
DK.
To what extent did the local school board oversee your
teaching?
MN:
I used to be scared to death when the superintendent came to the
country school. I never thought, I was myself, I never thought I
did my best when he was around. They came to Oil City and I can't
remember Parker I guess they came.
DK:
I can understand that. It's frightening when the superintendent
comes and observes. I can appreciate that.
MN:
Did you teach too?
DK:
Oh yes, I taught in public schools for 5 years and I've
taught here for 27 years.
MN:
Teaching in what?
DK:
History.
MN:
Dr. Murphy was my history teacher here. I can't remember to much
about the class, but I remember what he looked like.
-54-
DK:
MN:
DK:
j
rh mv subject she's telling me.
She's not impressed with my su j
• v T ViaH a little more access to it maybe a different instructor
lillyol I thttk it does make a lot of difference who your
instructor is for history.
0h,
I thin, for any c l - really
?ructor e and V nS necessarily subjects or what have you
They
select those people they hear are core enjoyable or what have you.
Teaching is every personal thing and very closely tied in with the
personality of the person teaching. How closely have you
m a i n t a i n e d your connections with Slippery Rock over the years?
ins
MN:
I wouldn't say to closely but sort of closely. Diana used to go
here, she's my niece and when she was down here we brought her to
the dorms.
DK
Oh, she was a student here also?
MN:
Yes.
DK:
Oh, I was here when she came here in '63. So through family ties
you've kept close ties with Slippery Rock?
MN:
Yes, and I have another niece who like me is a Westminster graduate,
but she came here summers to help with her teaching programs. She
taught at the Commador Perry School and was just retired recently;
she was Lillian Nelson now Lillian Carnahan; she was retired just
this year.
DK:
Well let's say some young person came to you Miss Nelson
today and they were a little uncertain of their career and college
and they might say to you, "Well I think maybe I'd like to teach
but I'm not sure. And I'm not sure whether I'd rather go to
Westminster or Slippery Rock" What's your advice? What would you
tell them?
MN:
That s a hard question if it isn't what they want to do maybe the
expense would have something t o do with i t .
DK:
MN:
DK:
iVCrainli wouid. Then between the 2 schools, it's pretty obvioi
Which school to choose if expense is the question.
l;;
Ss
r*
iiscaa
£
"sr
a
=* i ffivsag-su isx;* - •»~ - - tl"
decisions Song^hose^ines?' **
MN:
There you go.
-55-
S C h °° 1 S
^
their
DK;
vou'dnii£a^V
good suggestion. Well do you have anything
eyminate with because it's going down for posterity
it will >>« •
it will be in print and people will be reading this for years.
MN
Where are you going to put it?
DK
It's going to be in a booklet along with several others.
MN:
In the Alumni News?
DK
Let's see, no it will be in a separate booklet by itself, and we'll
see that you get a copy.
MN:
That would be wonderful. Well, I certainly have enjoyed
talking with you and riding around with some of these people that
have told us so much. Mr. Watson on the bus, that I first rode in,
he told us a lot about things that have occurred. Since we got it
first hand from him, it's been very enjoyable talking with you.
DK:
Well I'm sure everyone has been pleased having you and they told me
before I even met you how wonderful a personality you had and how
you'd be wonderful to interview. They were right. Thank you very
J
much.
-56-
,-«i nral History Project
Slippery Rock University Centenn
Alumnus: Hazel Armstrong
Interviewer: Peggy Mershimer
You have lived here all of your life?
In
the vicinity, except for when I was away teaching.
What were some of the different places that you lived?
V ™
Rrowntown, also known as Carter Station, and
then'we ^ed°to Redmond? theA later to the Branchton area.
Did you get you elementary education here in Branchton?
Yes I went to the Branchton school, a one room school.
Eunice
wanted me to mention what has happened to the most recent Branchton
school. It has caved in, and she was sorry you couldn't take a
picture of it while it was whole.
I do have pictures of that school, and the roof was still holding up
then though it did look very bad. Now, I guess the Branchton
school is no more.
During the time you were growing up, you went
m Slirmerv rock for shopping and such?
HA:
Yes.
PM:
Tell us how you became a high school student at Slippery Rock.
HA:
Well, I went to the president of the school board, William Morrison,
to get permission to go to the secondary department of the Slippery
Rock Normal School for my high school, it was with the
understanding that my father would pay the activities fee, which
was $10 a semester, as I recall. I found out years later that if
you were a member of a family of a school board member, they paid
for them all. They claimed that the Branchton school was the worst
in the area and they paid teachers extra to teach there.
PM:
It was a badly overcrowded school, was it not?
HA:
It was overcrowded, and there were some kids that did not have
respect for authority and they just did not want to be trained.
They went there to show their muscle. This foreign boy, I don't
know why, picked on Madison Dixon, who would not have lifted his
hand to hurt a flea. This boy threw Madison down and jumped on his
head, so Ethel Hunt, the teacher went out to the playground and
this boy gave he battle. She had her rubber hose and every time he
W °vv
r f i s e h i s hand > she'd crack him over the hand with that
ru er hose. She subdued him, and she only weighed around 100
pounds, but the boy did not know that he had been brought up on a
-57-
PM:
T^i vS.?Jlittle about y°u hiBh school education in Slippery Rock.
What building were you classes in?
HA:
Mostly in the Main building, and the Normal School teachers were our
teachers in secondary school.
PM.
What was different between when you were going to school there and
when you were teaching?
HA:
Well, you would be asked what you wanted to take. I said I wanted
the academic curriculum, so therefore the only choice I had was
either Latin or French, and I chose French because I didn't want
Beatrice K. Mary.
PM:
Her reputation was for being pretty tough?
HA:
Yes. And the choice of French was not any better because 18 of
those who started the year only 6 remained at the end of the year.
PM:
Who was teaching?
HA:
Miss Campbell, she was a Canadian, French Canadian, of course. in
our third year, there was a young man who had graduated from the
Normal School several years before, and he was wanting to go some
place else. He had already gotten his degree from Thiel, and he
was given permission to join the French class, and he got Miss
Campbell's number pretty quickly. He would do things to aggravate
her because he knew she couldn't do anything to him. Of course the
rest of us were enjoying this new experience. One question he
asked her was, "If you were in France and spoke French, would they
understand you?" She almost exploded on that. She said, "The
French I'm teaching you is the French they teach in France."
PM:
Who were some of the other teachers, beside Miss Campbell in French?
HA:
Well, Mr. Headland and Coach Thompson.
PM:
What kind of teacher was Coach Thompson?
HA:
Oh, he was good, and he wouldn't put up with any funny stuff. One
time a star football player wasn't too good in math and during
football season we had been permitted to help him when he went to
the blackboard. One day we did not realize that football season
was over, and Coach told Nick which proposition to take, and Nick
looked back after he put it on the board. He looked at Helen
McCullough and me, and we shook our heads that it wasn't right.
Instead of his just erasing here and there he erased the whole
thing. Coach said, "Now Nick, you explain you proposition." Nick
said, "It ain't right, Coach." And then Coach let loose with all
guns and Helen and I tried to slide under the desk, but he didn't
say a word to us. He told Nick, "Those girls are just kidding
you." After giving Nick a good math lesson, he told him to sit
down.
-58-
PM:
i.
-M that be Mac McCullough's sister?
Helen McCullough, would tha
4There was Pierce and Wallace and
««h''
„«
HA:
.... .f ... «»•>"•'
h'd
""" "***
inbc but they broke them up rather quickly
They started some clubs,
interested in the clubs that were
because the students were
slippery Rock they had the two
available. Before I came to Slippery^ ^^ £isenberg
societies, the Bryan an
«.nnipt:hine; that was going to improve our
wanted us to do was to join
Qf u?
thfdancflroupt^r. Eisenberg said "No" because he felt the group
was not giving us what would benefit us.
PM:
When you say dance group, do you mean the kind where you would dance
with each other?
HA-
Yes, ballroom dancing was what it was. We had a lot of our
activities in gym class. The gym classes were really outstanding
We practiced posture, we played games, we would climb the ropes and
the ladders. One time in particular, we were using a springboard
to vault over the horse, and the first time I used it my feet went
straight up. I was badly frightened. (Laughter)
PM:
There was no swimming then?
HA:
Oh no. Later we got tennis in gym class, and field hockey, and
basketball. I was undersized and had quite a problem in seeing
over people because they towered over me. Jerry Mathews was center
and I was side-center. She was just about to catch the ball and I
ran in to get the ball, much to everyone's surprise, because I did
not do that too often. We also had a game where we had a great big
ball, and you weren't allowed to touch the ball with you hands.
You sat on the floor and kicked the ball with your feet. I think
maybe it was the beginning of training for soccer or something like
that.
PM
What year did you graduate?
HA
I was graduated from the high school in 1923.
PM
What came after that?
HA
Normal School, and I graduated from Normal School in 1925. I took
the two year course so that I would get out sooner to make money.
PM:
You did take more schooling after that?
HA:
Yes
I did not get a job in the fall, and Dad said I should
continue with school, because he did not want me just sitting at
Gr°Ve City' and 1 told him 1 did
want t0 &
rnmr;nier^SgeSc
to Grove City. So it was the 13th of January, 1926, that I starte<
-59-
to teach down in the Beaver Valley. I was there for four and onehalf years. Each summer I would go to summer school to get the
necessary credits, and one year I went to Geneva College, to night
school, to make up a credit. Then in 1931, I was graduated from
the State Teachers College with a Bachelor of Science in Education
degree.
PM:
It was Slippery Rock State Teachers College at that time?
HA:
Yes. Dr. Blaisdell would get and say, "Remember, you are in college
now, you're not in Normal School." And I remember Dr. Hamm, whose
wife taught kindergarten. Everyone loved her and they liked him,
but he scared the wits out of you. One time in Psychology class,
he explained stimulus and response. Well, I understood what he had
explained, but I did not expect what happened next. He said, "All
right," and he started down the row, the A's, and I was the fifth
A. I could tell by looking at him he was ready to explode, because
no one could answer his questions. I blurted out something, if he
had told me to repeat it I never could have, but I satisfied his
question. Then in my next encounter with him, Miss Parks, the
French teacher, was called home because of illness of her father,
and Miss McKay called me into the office to see if I would take her
classes for a couple of days. I said, "Yes, except that is the day
I have Dr. Hamm." She said not to worry that she would fix up an
excuse for me. So I took Miss Parks' French classes, and when I
gave my excuse to Dr. Hamm he asked why they had me teach the
class and why did they not call on someone else. I told him that
no one knew as much French as I did. You know, from that time on
he not pick on me at all.
PM:
Who were some of the other teachers or professors in those college
days?
HA:
Well, there as Ada Elliot. She was wonderful. She wrote the Alma
Mater, the music. Miss Waller was another, she was public school
music teacher. Quite a number of years after she left Slippery
Rock, I was up at Chautauqua, and I saw this person looking at me.
Finally, she motioned for me to come down to where she was and it
was Miss Waller. She was teaching summer school music at
Chautauqua for one of the New York colleges, and she was asking me
about Slippery rock, and about the people. She said, "I never will
be back." I was sorry to hear her say that, because I had always
been very fond of her as a teacher and a person.
PM:
Was there a different feeling between the students and the town then
that there is now?
HA:
I don't know that there was much difference. Where the big
difference came was which group you were in at the college. If you
were Phys Ed, you were it. If you were academic, well you were
kind of a nuisance. They were trying to make Phys Ed the ideal,
and every one else was to be sacrificed at that expense.
PM:
When you were in high school you lived at home and went back and
-60-
forth by horse and wagon?
HA:
Yes, by horse and buggy. I did the same during the college years.
It wasn't horse and buggy when I was going to college, at that time
of my life I was able to drive, so I drove to school.
PM:
When did you buy your first car?
HA:
I think my Dad took his first car with a loan through Roy Grossman.
It was a Ford Runabout, and Walter was determined because he had
learned to drive on John Cheeseman's car that he was not going to
help Ada to drive. Ada said to me, "I'm going to drive down to
Branchton, and you've got to help me." Well, I knew if I did not
help her, she'd do it herself, so I went with her. On the way, she
became kind of confused at the crossing, and she turned to go
parallel with the RR tracks. She went up and over the tracks and
broke the connecting rod, and a lot of people came to lift the car
off the tracks because it was about time for a train. Walter came
down with a horse, the most raw boned horse you ever saw, and
instead of leading him, he jumped on his back and rode him. So a
good time was had by all.
PM:
When you went to school, you just went to school, you did not work
or anything?
HA:
No, I only worked at home.
PM:
Did you have to go to Sunday evening Chapel?
HA:
PM:
Ztt
the mornin6>
you had to attend. If you were not ther
had *>«* Chapels
appreciation^f art""^ 3-ClaSS*
We Ld
Drf Murphy would pivePhy^clatlon of music; you name it, we had it.
looked forward to that
Babe^uth
? W6ek' Snd everyone
us informed about.
* W3S °ne °f the objects he kept
and
This Chapel was like an assembly program?
HA:
ItlL
PM:
Pe°Ple
°bJeCted
t0
»as because they
It wasn't devotional?
HA:
Waller for "BUssed^e^he51^^^^^ £?mplained strongly to Miss
lnds-"
song. And he raised a fuss OVPY
He did not like that
Women wea*"ing the stockings,
and the clock hose. It was rWoYjust "too suggestive." Once a VP^T-10?! 0n_tlle st°cking, and it was
poem, "In Gossiptown." i've
' r< £isenberg would read the
copy of it. There was never a morf "gr?tJed that I did not get a
classroom than J. L. Eisenber* It lnsP^ing teacher in the
come alive.
8- He could make even a dry subject
PM:
Is there anything else that occurs tn
-61-
u
v
you that was memorable, a time
or a person, perhaps or most enjoyable?
literature!*
f°r
™y
deSree-
1
enjoyed Miss Simpson, she taught
PM:
You did not have Miss Arnold or Miss Griffin?
HA'
from InefMcCl^mondf^she^Lled 3 S°°d teacher' 1ulte * contrast
recover. The ones livin. ^ .u a
°Ut °ne tlme; 1 "ever did
dorms who showed up late for
class, she would not
here and Dorothy Hangmen/was ridine 'iJh' 1 "aS drivinS from °ut
W1 th us'
Dorothy would come
like a snail, and Twuld «t L
n
take the bawiings out any Cger
^
Dr. Eisenberg was round*na ,m
Just did not go to class. So,
ClaSS' and Ada
said to me that I had better go^clasl
So^th
proiect we werp fn
w
' bo» there was some
was quite important for our* ?he had Eaid
"
She liked it, but she gave me a n 1 .
a little Buick Roadster.
I specialize in art, so I knew it was not
"^ suSSested that
C&Se I
1 wasn't UP
to her standards. I had iust cur W
Cv!a!!S t0° often0ne morning
we were doing water colors
T'H
before, and s'he he'd"ine^up and ZT/
TlT^V han*
see that this
person has done water colors before «'i Jold h r ?
she ignored me completely.
'
never had, and
PM:
an"adventure S'tiL""
HA:
HartzellsS
t0 SliPP6ry R°Ck ln
tha
-«er must have been
lrifts
-er by
were parked close to wAere the^rHvinrat'th8^
some interesting experiences.
PM
HA:
Sta"edWe
meWe had
Did the Branchton road follow the same route it does today?
Pretty much, except for where it comes down past our nl*™
nthrough one of our good fields. It really damaged ou? land
OnT^
commissioner came out and told us we did not have an itemized
hlm Z'd make an itemized account.
itC°w'bS°A
I itemized
it, but he did not agree with me. Some of them were rea lv Irv
nice to deal with, and you knew the ones you would vote for and the
the
ones you would vote against.
PM:
All of your classes were in the Old Main Building then?
HA:
Yes, at that time.
PM:
Did you have gym as a required class also, when you were in college?
HA:
Oh yes
Our senior year we had to have five days a week in teaching
gym. At our 50th anniversary some of us were reminiscing
Kennv
Hogg said he thought they would get out of it, since they "were
secondary teachers and did not need it. At the last minute they
-62-
312 a S£ His; •-;M S3
..
j
i j Vt4ni he could not graduate without i t .
Glenn
"
requirements^of the three year course, but it came time graduation,
they had to join us.
Where did you eat lunch?
Sometimes I carried my lunch, but most of the time I did not. Most
of the time I would not eat from the time I left the house until I
returned at night. I didn't like to pack a lunch. I did eat in
the dining hall the first nice weeks, and some of the food was
horrid. They had burned tomato soup. Josie Gould was very dizzy
once and he spilled some of that soup on me. Josie was a clown.
He was in a nature study class, under Clay Curtis Ruff, and he was
one of the ones who enjoyed irritating Clay Curtis. So he decided
he was going to discipline Josie, I forget what he had him do, so
Josie looked at him very earnestly, and as soon as he had his back
turned enough, he nudged Mable Dixon to look at how he could snap
his garter. You see we did not need any extracurricular
activities, we had our own entertainment. I forget what Josie had
done that displeased the Normal School, but they shipped him home.
To make sure that he got home, Mr. Cook took him home.
Who were some of the other folks from the area who were in school
with you?
Kathleen Adams. I don't know when she died. I know I heard from
Kathleen after my sister, Jo, died, that was in 1978.
Her brother
Dale had her move to Colorado, where she lived in a apartment, and
she enjoyed herself thoroughly, as you know she would. She could
see the funny side of everything.
-63-
R"k
or., HisCory Projooc
Alumnus: Oliver Gordon
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Where was you original home town?
OG:
Connelsville" UnSntom^^hat^rea'
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
between
Greensburg,
Fayette or Westmoreland County?
Westmoreland
Ann
i
farm out between Scottsdlle anrDawson3" h*16" "e "ere
could go to Scottsdale schools
kids bou8ht
"*
Did you play high school athletics?
Oh, yes.
I piayed football for four years.
What caused you to choose Slippery Rock as your college?
OG:
^er
H^^tro^u
^^ro^to^hL6
"? °f ^ S—1
married his sister and r^s^teS''o^elfep.
DK:
An in-law relationship then?
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
So he persuaded you to become a Slippery Rock student?
I wanted to go to school and didn't know where to PO
rh
7 said tc
go up there to Slippery Rock and T h*H t-h
£!
?
take up medicine, bSt he said to I2f^ ght ?aybe I#d like ^
C°Urse and 1 was
there two days and they asked me n
Physical Education a^velnjoye'd
°"r b°
DK:
You mean you had trouble carrying a tune?
OG:
Well at least I thought I did.
DK:
Other than your Physical Education teacher*
OG:
17 ^
imp^sio^o^yuf
°f^0th"
Ho
v
a^eep
At the time in the Physical Education department we had a Dr
Holmes. Yeah, Dr. Holmes. He used to say to me .
When I fircr
went up to school for some reason or another he used to call me
Jimmy, and I was too bashful to tell him, the coach I wasn't
Jimmy. All my life I was known as "Lefty," but theA all the kids
call me Jimmy, too. Dr. Holmes would say to me, "My you're
missing your calling if you don't go into medicine,"'but then, of
-64-
course, money was short and everything else, and I got a job in
physical education and we had a teacher up there named Linehart and
he was a great gymnast and I worked under him for two years, then
Cottrell came up.
DK:
I knew Dr. Cottrell.
OG:
Then you knew what kind of a gymnast he was.
DK:
Let me ask you another question. I happen to know your wife also is
a Slippery Rock student. Is that where you two met each other?
OG
Yes, she was a physical education major.
when I was a senior.
DK:
But you waited for her apparently.
OG:
No, we never went together until we taught at Avalon high school.
DK:
Oh, I see.
that.
OG:
Oh, no it wasn't.
DK:
I know that you have fond memories of Coach N. Kerr Thompson and I
also know you were on the 1925 championship team.
OG:
1924.
DK:
1924 state championship team. Slippery Rock's first state
championship. So would you share some of your football experiences
and your experiences with coach?
experiences
OG:
WH J t
Course she was a freshman
I thought that was college romance or something like
I J° l d
y° u ^ e f o r e .
01d
Coach, before we'd go on the field
DK:
That was sort of like "win one for the Gipper."
OG:
That's right.
DK:
h^waH good W motivator? Vatlng
OG.
DK:
OG:
y°U t 0
effort.
Do
you think
He was. We'd go through hell f«r v
«
had a 200 pounder on it
We wprit- l-i™' ? U r t e a m » 1 don't think we
• we went through the season undefeated.
Could you name some of the srhnni * ,
Slippery Rock, other than the other
J l a y e d during your career at
c n e r s t a t e normal schools.
Well, yes. We went down t-n Mr n •
off them. An then we, who else thai? C o U e S e a ™i licked the pants
r e w a s 3 team down in Ne
'
New
-65-
them the BurnS M' We we« d°™
andSplayed'them^and Itl
P y a tnem and they all were semi-pro and we beat them.
DK
OG
DK:
What was your position?
weighedn:bo™l65.and
P°UndS; the tackle
^side me~I think he
What was his name?
Coll F PP
College.
a
t k i•
i*
brother were playing at Thiel
I believe Tommy Hollaran was coaching up thfre then
T
quirterbLkear^chhaVC^en-an?t\erHarb0r- ^ tS^asa
I think he would hair k neSle Tech at that time beat Notre Dame,
at Pitt.
^b6en 3n A11-American if he would have stayed
DK:
OG:
What sort of an offense did you run, single wing?
trickSplfvs
?ourse' the coach would come up with some
this one man. I've forgotten where he
flicker°then S 'd^l1^
cflled it a fle^
U8#
travel 50 miles to
see that play.
^^he Said
nit* el
Y
W1ISre pnh'
m
Z remember
DK:
It worked pretty good then?
OG:
It worked.
DK:
Did you do much passing in that era?
OG:
Oh yes, we did quite a bit. We had a fullback named Nick Mahler
I 11 never forget him. Boy, oh, boy, when he was sent through the
line you better get out of there because he'd break your back
If
he hit you, you knew it.
DK:
Was he bigger than the average of the rest of them?
OG:
Yes.
DK:
A little heavier?
OG:
Then we had Rick Goldberg. He was there one year and later went to
Pitt and Jock turned him into a center and he played there for
three years, I guess. So we had some good boys.
DK:
I have heard and, of course, I don't know, because it was before my
era, but I have heard that in that period of the 1920s, which was
very much a sports minded era, that a lot of older players played
on football teams. Did you have any older players or were they
late teens-early twenties?
-66-
OG:
T think there was only one that I can remember that was older than
the rest of us. Goldberg may have been a little older, Nick
Mahler. Did you hear of Mae Taylor?
DK:
I knew Mae Taylor quite well, and I knew her sister Ruth.
sister Ruth taught me in elementary school.
Her
OG-
Nick Mahler. His father was a barber and he had learned the trade
and he'd cut our kids' hair and if he saw Mae down on the campus,
out he'd go and finish our haircut later.
DK:
He was pretty interested in Mae then?
OG:
Oh, yes!
I taught with Mae, her sister taught me in elementary school and
then I taught with her at Slippery Rock High School for many years
before she retired.
OG:
Is she still living?
DK:
No. Mae has passed away.
away.
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
No, doesn't ring a bell with me.
OG:
There she is (points to a photograph).
DK:
No.
OG:
Her father was the treasurer or something at the school.
The Crawford girls.
I don't know when, but she has passed
Jeanie Crawford, I think it was.
were there?*" ^ e ^^ e v e • • • • Was there a Mr. McClymonds when you
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
BurSar when 1 was thereAUen° n wi£h whom"Fli
»is son
Office
graduated, is now working in the Business
OG:
orSotten what he was •
As 1
said when they asked me to si*
t
u
r
n
e
the name of Bill Welsh a lH^f
d over. I had a roommate by
into coming up with me' UP H /° m my , t e r r i t o r y- I got him talked
o u ^ schedules changed and were sent
up to . . .
DK:
Did you know Dr. Hamm?
e heard of him and saw pictures but I didn't know him.
Was Dr.
E i s e nberg p r e s ident
while you were there?
-67-
0G:
DK:
Yes.
"hat memories or impressions did you have of Eisenberg?
OG:
aS He^ate/bec^e rb ^a r?°Tate the" by the name
ofdArtCprassy
y
later became the head of the state penal system.
DK:
Yes indeed, I remember the name.
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
The sister-in-law wasn't real popular apparently?
Sr^hpr11 £all6d hBu Mpink little-W Li^an Johnson. I'll never
forget her. Have you heard the name Alexander Delavaddy?
No, that's not familiar to me.
niehtdINw^hr«?^^ COul?n't Set bey°nd tb* reception room. One
flying d°m the hal1 and
you could seek fire in Lr eyes from^
me beinS there.
r.o,,iS
v7
Before she
think ?ayshonlH KS ^ime 1 S^id t0 her' "Miss Johnson, don't you
t0 Slng in °Ur society?n
"You know
14V
And she told me,
W
ZU- VAI
5° g6t T0 KNOW ? BOY'S NOTE." And I said to
hA wae
Alexander Delavaddy would"--they called him Sunday-he was with me
I said we'd like to call on you. But my gosh we
for te
get through,the girls' dormitory. And she invited us'up
for tea and Sunday night we went. The girls all had their heads
poppin' out.
DK.
They couldn't believe that male could get into North Hall
they were still very strict on that even when I was an
undergraduate, it's quite a different situation today.
OG:
Yeah. I've forgotten the name of the teacher who took us to New
York. To an AAU Gymnastic meet. It was related to the Olympics
I'm not sure--but outside of that--I always had a good feeling for
6
Slippery Rock.
DK:
I've heard you've been a loyal alumnus ever since.
OG:
We try to be. When I was taken into the Hall of Fame. I was called
on and pretty nervous. As I told you before, I got kicked in the
head and was out for a couple of hours and coach never put me in
the ballgame (1924 championship football game) and it broke my
heart at the time. Coach, I know down in his heart.... I expected
to start. And he never put me in. I think he was afraid I'd get
hurt again.
DK:
You did have another year of eligibility--was your senior year a
good year?
-68-
Well
OG:
That was ay senior year.
The fall of 1924 and I graduate in 1925.
DK:
It was sort of you last opportunity then.
OG:
Yes, it was the last opportunity for me to play.
DK:
Where was you first job after graduation?
OG:
Charleroi.
DK:
And how long were you at Charleroi?
OG:
Three years. Then I went to Pitt for my Bachelor degree and then I
got my Master's there too.
DK:
Did you teach physical education and coach football at Charleroi?
OG:
I had the Jr. High team.. The last year I was there we won the
Washington County championship.
DK:
Where was your next job?
OG:
Avalon. And that's where Fran and I got together. She had the
girls and I had the boys. I was the basketball coach and assistant
football coach. From there I went into the city. I started out at
Prospect, went to--I was there about three or four years. We had
baseball. ^ Three city championship and one runner up. Then I went
to Alderdice and I had Herbie Douglas in track. A big school. I
had Herbie Douglas who later went into the Olympics.
DK:
Did you know Lon Colbum?
OG:
Yes, I did.
DK:
knew'him
OG:
Did you know Art Dean?
DK:
No.
Where did you run into him?
^ JUSt °utside Slippery *»«*•
*
OG:
of oourIe"in r i942 P 1 went™ 5 ?"V**" 1 f i r S t w e n t U P t h e r e ' ^
Then I w a ; a? J o n r i y a N a v * a n d came back in 1946.
y e a r s a n d w e nt to Perry and was
there until I retired in 1969
DK
How old were you when you went into the Navy?
OG:
Late thirties.
DK:
Not a particularly young
OG:
No.
man
to be in WWII.
-69-
I see from the photo on the mantle you were officer material.
0G:
I came out a Lt. Commander.
DK:
I see, that's really excellent.
Where did you serve?
center and*then Seattle ancTnut UTA
into commission a^d" t
Tea
t
and 125 crew.
DK:
All navy personnel these stevadores?
OG:
Yeah, black.
DK:
Halsey fleet.
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
And you were discharged in 1945?
OG:
1946.
DK:
then?"and
t?,?iami at a fleet
replacement
I hM'steW
£lp
stevadoes on ship
did y°U g° baCk int° teachinS and
coaching right away
OG:
When I came back they sent me to Conroy to finish the year. I came
back in February. I was there a couple of years and then went to
Perry as assistant coach to Chester Smith and he retired and I
coached then until I retired in 1969.
DK:
That's Perry High School?
OG:
Yeah, as head football coach.
DK
You coached until 1969 when you retired. You've had a pretty lone
retirement then.
OG
Yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
DK
Are you a regular attender at Homecoming and Alumni Day?
OG
Yes. We go up every year. As long as Mrs. Thompson could come
over. We'd go and get here and take her to the luncheon and take
her back. She's a lovely old person.
DK:
And she remembers you well?
OG:
Absolutely.
DK:
When you were a student and a football player, was the team around
Mrs. Thompson much? Did they get the opportunity to get acquainted
with her?
We've done a lot of traveling too.
-70-
OG:
Oh, yes, she was like a mother to us. She had dinner with us in
South Hall. She had a big table set up and Doc Eisenberg was there
and Art Prassy.
DK:
I believe he was also at George Jr. Republic.
OG:
He was at George Jr. Republic then at Morganza, then the head of the
penal system.
DK:
I didn't know until this evening when you told me that he was a
Slippery Rock graduate.
OG:
He didn't graduate but attended for a while. Then he went to Thiel
for one year. I don't know if he graduated from there or not.
I'll never forget Doc Eisenberg was there too and conversation got
slow and Art looked down at him and said, "Well, Doc, is your
stomach touching the table yet?" and you know he had a great big
one.
DK:
No, I didn't know.
OG:
Yeah, he did. For a long time then the baseball team played on
Alumni day and most of the boys we played with went back for that.
DK:
So how did the old fellows do against the young fellows?
OG:
Well, we didn't do too bad. I'll never forget--for my size I could
can stil^Mt-long ball. I remember one game the coach said, "You
can still hit can t you Jimmy!" That's what he called me.
DK:
He never stopped calling you
OG
DK:
He did, huh?
Jimmy?
I never told him it wasn't Jimmy.
Well, he probably knew, but .
Maybe you just looked like a Jimmy to him and that's why he call you
OG:
night at practice we^ad^o^un^he'inn 5 a b o u t h i m 7
d3Sh'
with us and he would beat every one of us.
DK:
OG
DK
OG:
DK:
A b °"t
every
H® W ° U l d
run
Now he was a big man--that surprises me.
Oh, he was a big man!
I didn't think he could be so fast.
He
ne was. He was
I be! i
v.
American Team - - i ' m not sure.
made AU
Oilcan--Walter Camps All
I knew he was a graduate of
D o Y ou
anything about how he got to Slinofr^D S , l i p p e r y R o c k never heard anything about that ? y °Ck f r o m U^inus? I ' v e
-71-
know
OG:
No, I don't. He we>ntschool, I'm not sure.
UPPery
.
Rock--may have been the high
DK:
was a local person5'
S66n that in his cre
Maybe he
OG:
from Slippery Rock, JimhMillslnSi wa dl?nt know that Jim graduatec
I forgot to mention him playing for me
^ S°rry afterwards that
DK:
OG
DK
OG
DK;
OG:
What high school did he play for you?
Perry.
At Perry. He was a Perry graduate.
Yeah.
«=
.*•- *<• -
-
Oh, I met his wife; she's a beautiful little girl.
DK:
they'had'f^rather
OG:
DK:
"1
right.
1 thinh
Yeah, I'd like to see Jim again.
How many of you high school players--like Tin. M -T H
played college ball?
Mills--went on and
OG:
different lolll&s™ I^ju^n't'reL'mbe'r'th^l^'115tGr'
DK:
And this was one of you goals, to get your boys into college?
OG:
YZ
crazy and say, '"What do yZ^iVsly^"'f'""5
Right away, "C's and D'/- Not good enough'
had
too and there was not way to get them in on a scholarship.
DK:
Have you been following the controversy on Proposition 42?
OG:
Yes.
DK:
What are your opinions on the NCAA ruling?
0G:
iV«l\Zell.y°,1 If 1 har 5?,g° t0 C°llege now«
For the simple reason--! didn't hit the books.
-72-
:'d
never make it
Just enough to git
DK:
So you think there
would have been in
and all the people
-you wouldn't have
0G:
That's right.
DK:
Well, that's interesting. One thing that disturbs me. I have had
some students in class at Slippery Rock that got football
scholarships to large university's who were not able to carry a
full load of classes and, therefore, ended their eligibility
without a degree. Then they had to hustle anyway possible to get
back to school to finish their degree. I always sort of resented
that.
0G:
Oh, yes. I think you can blame that on the coaches because they
knew very well that they couldn't make the grade and give them
courses that meant nothing. I'll tell you one: Jock Sullivan, he
never asked how big a boy was his first question was "What kind of
student is he?" You know, most of his boys were either in dental
school or medical school.
DK:
I did know that an awful lot of players from that era were out of
dental school. That speaks well!
OG:
You bet it does.
DK:
That what I hear.
OG:
He was at the Hall of Fame dinner the night I was taken in.
DK:
At Slippery Rock?
OG:
Yeah, he had his whole coaching staff there.
DK:
What year were you taken into the Slippery Rock Hall of Fame?
OG:
1986.
DK
Who were some of the others taken in?
OG
have been real opportunities lost
If that rule
effect, you wouldn t have g° t t e £ l n t o college
you effected ever since--throughout your careerhad the opportunity to help them either?
Joe Paterno's the same way, isn't he.
I hear he's pretty demanding in his players.
B°b PhlHPs.
<=eorge Stoness, Janet Swab
DK:
Yes, I know Ed Hepe--several of t-w
n
HeSS' 1 Went t o scho°
with him. I do know several of them' n?
right up at the top there
T.ef- ™
' _>
course, there you are
played baseball and football as a ' 1 : . " N a t i v e
Scottsdale, PA;
the AAU Olympic Gymnastic Trials in w
v",® a n d P a r t i -cipated in
of the undefeated Rocket team in m?®" I° r k C l t y i n 1 9 2 9 • Member
And this was something you Sdb?t^
" N ' K e r r Thompson."
president of you senior class
" " i t h me'
"ere
OG:
Oh, yeah.
-73-
Fran^orHn ^eliing me a11 the stories you should be telling me.
Fran Gordon) You were really impressed with him I suppose
OG
We've had 49 good years; in March.
DK
That's good.
OG
One son.
DK
Does he live locally?
OG
£eci£ education.^ovmship*
(To
^ches i» the Pittsburgh schools.
DK
I see.
OG
He went to Westminster.
DK
Couldn't talk him into Slippery Rock?
OG
He went to Slippery Rock for his Master's degree.
DK
Well, that's all right then.
Master's there.
And where did he go to school?
We'll forgive him if he got his
&
OG:
Well his mother had her physical education up there and he knew a
lot of people up there so that's where he went.
DK:
Do you have any other memories of Slippery Rock you'd like to share?
OG:
Well, I started telling you about them asking me to sing when I
changed over to physical education. I can't remember the Prof's
name. .
anyway. We opened the door and walked in, Bill and I
and he said "Are you boys up here to play football?" And I said
No sir. I m here to get an education, but I'm going to play
football." And he said, "Then get the hell out of my class." And
it was full of girls. We went back down stairs and Miss Green
secretary to Doc Eisenberg gave us a note and we went back up
opened the door, and he said the same thing.
We went down the stairs again and old Doc was there
He
always wore a frock coat--tailed. He went flying up--2nd or 3rd
floor, I forget now, and we got in the class alright. There were
three of us. One guy did the work in English--he got a B. My
roommate copied from him and got an A. I flunked.
DK:
Now you didn't say who you copied from.
0G:
I copied from my roommate.
DK:
All the same and three different grades. We probably ought not ask
what that professor's name was; he must not have been a very
efficient professor.
-74-
OG:
I think he left that year.
DK:
I hope we don't have too many like that now.
DK:
Tell us about the practice where the players were getting worked up
OG:
We were at it hot and heavy in scrimmage. Coach happened to look
around and Doc Eisenberg coming across the field. He said "Chr"
1St
sake here comes old Doc, now be sure and watch your goddamn
language."
Then the next day at chapel--I always had to open and close
the gym at noon; that was my scholarship--I came in late. We weiassigned seats but (since I came in late) I sat in the back and all
the professors sat in the back and the coach sat back there and
se?HWa«TCOmmenting ab°Ut US °n the PlflyinS field up there
He
was UP to watch them practice and they were perfect
neuer
any foul language or any slang »
fonk Hmen"
I
looked over et the coach and he had a greft big grin o^his face.
DK:
OG:
°K:
Weil, I suppose that in the violence and sweat of foothill ^
be hard to keep your tongue under control.
would
You bet it is!
Juni°r
SW L
0"?is:.--'
b1.; s*"?
tba11
the most important things in your life6
field
was one of
OG:
much help^from the^ t r ' t i r o ^ r • S o m e t i m e s y o u d i d n ' t g e t
ab°Ut the «*ofl
Principals. Some ofXm"ere very
agaln
had one assistant coach .
now^he
"
But. there, I
for over 20 years and had never sot^f head c°acl> • • . I coached
°"f "leave the building at 6-30- the r
/ U' 1 was the last
going home at 3:05 and we got the s^e salary
«•«*•" were
DK:
0G:
There was no supplemental pay?
No, none at all
Thpn T
weren^t'coach•:°aCheS had ""^in'the P°itt b '^th* w« 1 pa»a
oachlng and they were viviZt Jlttsburgh schools and
T uaJ ? '
e
3nd at th" time
a
: Lelefed President of S^Colch
d
to pa? «
hour of work
IWwanted^"10"' ^
costing $50 OOOfor ^? WaS gonna give us
?v,P3y US for 120
S Sports and^hey ^nted
Said iC Was
back for $30 000
T'n
f
rget
Di
tlme
talking to the personneVr* °
<* Myers at°tha?
us f°r 120 hours of work ?lract°r--he said, "You're wm •1"le
much m public rpla«-spoke up and T
. ®.willing to PaY
ld him' ^ Put that
doubt I did %n n- 110nS-" Th® personal J
U p a n d "id, "Now v ^ " S a l d h e d i d n > t
120 hours of work
hours in before fA •-??? S right. "Well c
gonna pay us for
1 Set my 120
before football is over; is it
^ all right for to quit
-75-
coaching?"
DK:
The answer was no.
They didn't agree with that?
0G:
pay us/
DK
0G
DK
t agree With that at a11-
"hat year did you finally
They finally did start to
start getting supplementary pay?
I came back in 1946. 1949-50.
lhat late before you ever got paid for all that coaching?
OG
said he wouldn'tepay°us until^il^he^th38 sup"intendent then.
extracurricular activities g^li^ KoSdt^ ££
DK:
OG:
DK
Of course you should have.
They finally came through. As I said T
-J
organization at the time
Thf i n
? president of the
esident of the school committee
said to me, "I had all mv
She sa^, what
they were gonna pfy^s andTsaid"-^6"^1^
I'll take my time trade and J
' P?rso?ally, I don't want it."
6 a"d my executlve board said they take their
time trade/
What do you mean by "time trade?"
OG
"aIingrhomeylnS **
teaCh"S
Masses while we were
taaah
DK:
I see.
0G:
no°thingrSBirsIS' I?'n'JkUldn;My°U rath6r haVe that than
$4000. Head coach and he's go£°3 0^4 assistants*^?et%ar°Und
how many.
DK:
Several assistants.
OG:
I had one.
DK
OG
assistants.
I ve forgotten
Yes.
Anything you want to say to wrap up about Slipperv RnnV
memories or attachments to Slippery Rock?
aT^
y°U
I have two grandsons and they've been up there and i-u^r
tQ g°
to school and I hope they do
I'd be Willi™ t o L y
to go up there. I think it's a fine institution and thtvveTra
fob Aebersold311^'
^y°U
DK:
H
You went there in 1920.
"nd
a better
President'"than
I went there in 1950 and I agree with
everything you said. I had a fine education. I went out and was
able to compete at other graduate schools and with students from
-76-
much larger and more prestigious schools. I'm proud of
undergraduate days at Slippery Rock. I have always been n
be a faculty member there. We're in complete agreement Pr°Ud
OG
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
Oh, there's one thing I haven't mentioned.
faculty member named Laurie Stepanian.
Do you have
to
woman
I know who she is, not a personal friend, but I know who she is
I led her father and mother down the aisle when they were married
Really.
Well do you know her brother Leo then?
Yes, very well.
Leo, of course, is a lawyer in Butler.
Yeah, in fact, I've seen Leo.
How was it that you became involved in the Seen*
ln the Stepanian wedding?
r and m°ther lived in rhari
r.5
"
"
enJ°Yed
v
.
every minute of it.
-77-
s. " v f e s r -
1
1
< ~ »
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Joseph Frazier
Interviewer: James Mennell
JM:
were'about £ g"Zn^yoVexoe/r'•"}**
«- -d w
edu"tion.
your first memory of your education?0"
What's
our community^thfn^e cai^^into'thi^ the.educational set up i
posed. I was bom in PleagL 5 ii
n-qUeStlon which you have
Township, Butler^ointv
i ^Cy ?istrict. Miller Creek
is now the Cloverleaf on route 422"ieS?* a.stones throw fr°m wha;
Park. West of Prospect
'• lead^ng lnto Moraine State
I enterpH L? f ' Pennsylvania, that would be.
achool. Pleasant
Valley School. Which was located'i3
which we have described- on err^ S east of tbe interchange
I went to one of five or six'school"°^°^cupied bY the park office.
Were ln Muddy Creek
Township and these were Wat-fS °
*
for the convenience of the nenni1R ^arious areas of the township
attfnding the schools,
There was the Butter school rhpW
school, the Pleasant Vallev'which °°mfleld.sch°o1. the Burnside
called the Frazier school and 1-h nt ™entloned which was formerly
I believe, with a n^e" do not recaU
°ne °ther'
from the school.
recall. We lived about 1/4 a mile
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
You were closer then, than we are today.
don't^recall^ever riSInftfschoo'l^t I' "****- ™
I
S *b°Ut th®
days before automobiles, my early school
davs^Nn
community owned an
t
Jnooi days. No one m our
would have been 1918
That woul^hav611^6176^1 SC^?q1 whicb I believe
eX?e5iencedo recall going with my^o oJder
I e^aS
*
lu™*es
with them under some bushes. I ate with ihe
days then I ate with the fellas
Thfac«
f
first few
by some local person who had got his/her certificatio^bv1^*1311®1111
county examination. In my elementarv exner*Jtii T £ 5 Y taklnS A
who had attended college/ My elg^wSde leache^ /h °ne te3Cher
college a total of si/weeks7 A summer session at
"'Tv
Normal School it was then.
session at Slippery Rock
As you look back does it really make a difference? n™»c a „«n
education really make a difference in an elementary school leachfl?
I Z11/ / t°es- how^er' 1 had v"y g°od teachers who served verv
well at that time. They were dedicated people, I'm sure they would
not measure up to the quality of many teachers today but bv the
same token I'm sure they surpass many. Their education
compensated, I feel I got an education that served it's purpose
Many of what some people would call the frills of education were
-78-
not available to us and that is a lack. I'm sure I have feltsomewhere through my life but. The curriculum was very sinrole
you can surmise. We did get rhetoric, a good deal of hisfn^
grammar. I'm really not in a good position to conmarp rn u a
7' h"
Sure buC 1 think
bettered
we got" "
better education
m the use of numbers, s p e l sometimes
l i n g a n d the
fundamentals of grammar possibly as thi case now^a"fys in m
blanket ""Option of today's education^
any means".
JM:
?^ —
hzs
xtr
relationship
between the
teacher and parent?
JF:
would goVtoUlsdchoayinr^ Jo the" teag°b°d
The parents
rarely interfere as is "he cas "today"" °CCasionaUy but wouT''
JM:
Why do you think that was?
JF:
he"dnJhetmesrayWthaJ mln"„«fpr^CT" h" the teacher, and we've
got one at school. I cL'"recln mv 3 WhiPPinS « home if they
png^s^rb^tT^
"never " ^
v^f^oot
"po6!0 J "go
an afternoon and sit in 7 But I
T" or twice a year lusfffr
complernt or suggestion to the teajw ab"/^ V6ry lbttle
country school.
Slngle 1,1081
important criteria in a
J"1
Was there much problem with discipline?
JF:
N°t
JM:
JF:
by the time 1 „as
,
- • * ~
:
.
Their early twenties?
In their early twenti^c
-
s
r
,
r
s
- - >
v
And ^ went
rlLc"era^haeStShetreor"a"erOUanSd"n'ba8veOW:
0t
She
could
6 and t0 test
tells of one incidentw?
control
they
f
teachers got a strong Z "
^Uy IfLZ
' -Now my father
situation. She took on°Unf lady to c°nie in wh runninS out several
and grabbed him bv th* °f the c"lprits on!*tered the
teacher's desij and told"*""" °f tha neck and °J theRingleaders
out. Well he got tirerf
t° stay there i,!h ?h5ew hlm under the
desk and made a bolt for t-h a afte* awhile and i StraiShtened
the door and she n3>? h PS6t the teacher's
UP the hickory rod
-79-
Sfef0lir? ^im fnd <;au6ht him and gave him the whaling of his
after il,^ incidents like that and she had control and there
But if you read Edear°F
w®" d™pped out and scho°l went on.
eiv*l\ZTiZ
^dSar.Eaggelston's The Hoosier Schoolmaster this
g
p etty much a picture of what went on in the generation
6 teacher in my day
too°b!tmnortoNth thEre rS StlU 3 t6St °f
68
66
considerably by that^ime ' * ^
^ave quieted down
What did you study?
toward%£
H
Mostly grammar and arithmetic?
C°ur®es for the
seventh and eighth grade students
Was there any homework?
Yes there was always homework. Spelling particularly and
masted LPrtler^ HoPefully the other subjects co^ld be
b®CaU?e with eiSht grades in the school of
course thereSw
were reciting
Now n ^ 1'"a•a "udylnS whlle °ther students
one of m^t Sch£ e^L^cL^nTs^oo^ilfr^
in len^laUe^ livens ^th^er SSTrJZS?
for tLel^frC^deeSar?ttae?i^Tg?Lhifteen °r
tW6nty mi™teS
Before you moved on to another grade?
Yes, before we moved on to another prarip
cA
for all the grades and sometimes maybe a couple of grades would^e
combined. Maybe grades five and six might be combined for a
b3^£da^yCt^oSsnmeSpurposefttNormallyteachWgradef if^here^ere^5*1
student in a grade, but sometimes if there was one stiid#»r>tstudents they might be combined with one or two in another prxr\*°•
certain subjects. I attended this country school f^r six yfars
From age six.
From age six. It was an eight year school, but I was promoted over
two of the grades, which I may have mentioned to you previously
and I finished m six years, and I was not yet twelve years f ^ e
when I was ready to enter the local high school and my father waf
not quite sure whether I should go or not. He was afraid the
-80-
larger boys might beat up on me, but we talked it over a n d
i ^
it up pretty largely to me and I wanted to go on and I got alon
fine with the boys even though I was the youngest and the smallfst
JM:
JF:
Why did you go on to high school in a rural community'
you feel you should go on to high school?
made
orS1arLbelieVu my y°uthful age was one reason. I wasn't old
or large enough to go out and engage in heavy ohvsirff
, ld enough
alWays
ver
had
y ^h interested in m7goinf to scho i a°d
had wanted to become a school teacher herself bu? Je ®ch?Gl- she
the
opportunity. Her parents would not permit her to To
elementary school. They said they needed hprV g °n bey°nd the
and a°
tearh
^W3nted
Sat an education
In fact ?
7
^er encoura^eie^t^d™
dlSh s=hool.
both my parents were in favor of
But
father would have been very happy if t hfd d *
school. Now my
acont nued my
education at the conclusi™ of the hi^ a ,
have stayed at home to work on the f*™ K
J *nd then 1 would
way, he simply didn't offer any^*^
in my
examinational©^get
JF-'
Uh^
«« -y heid
Oh absolutely.
JM:
admitted"^
t0 flfteen
P««nt flunked the tests and were not
JF:
?«t in cases now they^er37' they Bera prett^tiff'
Pa"icular,
m all fairness t-T
geared, 0f cour.n ®tiff examinations,
haVe to sa?
particular use f o r
things which student-* V*!?
lf
you
we
0day
have
n°
wallpaper it woSd'taP
" goina to %
t0 wallpaper
flSure out how much
of lumber could h
rL
a
h- much grain could^e st™ Sa° °a*y^ ^ ^
in—
M:
YepVi
•
tl .
11,6
.?
J'
test was hard?
A" rs.2
J
studied' TthiL3?.eaSy test- There „
arithmetic, a test in'his?16'' °Ver to "^grandd' °n 6Very subJect "e
composition writing, ££!?*• physioloLS 3"ffaUShter a test in
' Yes' a goodly number
of3r^ Phe °nefi recall g' ?rithmatic,
°er of students did In " as 1 think about
hese and they were
-81-
they cared to. ° recall^n^ repeat,the 6rade and take it again if
Wh° WaS taking ^e telt
the year I was taking iJ
He^
^ke it on the third^ound
H^ went on% ^r°Und' but he didn,t
the community, but he couldn't cut thp n, t- S°me t S°°d citizen of
he mustard a* far as passing
the test was concerned.
JM:
They didn't let him through?
JF:
No, they
JM:
dldn,t let hlm throughi
they didn,t automatlcaUy
When did automatic promotion begin to come in?
JF:
for°this^ecame^uch^ore'apparent^in°the
JM:
XT#*«. L^r.
Not
before then?
before that^ate!^6
JM:
JF:
JM:
ss'^ P"Sh
W*S ^ great
^ount of it in our community
What high school did you go to?
Portersville Muddy Creek Joint- hui, c i. i
and Muddy Creek Township cooperated fnd°W1r^b•'Tllle Borough
consisting of two room/ t-wJ•t
built a high school
$10,000. My father was'on the school bofrd^1^1^ itSelf cost
thought this was an exorbitant Trl
5
5hf time- He
to build a building,
That building is still used t-nrtav r _,spe
expanded, severalL'LvV"^111'' Tt has baa»
elementarY
school for the Slippery Rock Area Schoo^cLtrict"
What's it called, Portersville?
JF:
now route 488. Of course that was route 422^
school that is
488 at the present. But previous to thai- i-h
£ime' but its
school right in Portersville Borough--held in'the^dd^i^
Two teachers were employed and a curtain Vf>l *1
Fellows large
Home,
5
auditorium to separate the
teacLrs You
m°re they remain the'same.
We talk^bout^
Middle School here at Slippery Rock and where they hive th!
classroom with as many as four teachers in ri,. „
, the °Pen
Well this was pretty Lch an open"ussroom'in ST.^"
Y schoolsYou see the wheel is constantly being reinvented
To
JM:
JF:
IT T
Did you go to school when they had just the curtain across?
I did for a half a year and, after I had been there for i,au
the new school was completed and we the students did t-hp m •3 yefr'
the books and so forth, so we had a moving day and 1Tj2™"g °f
the new school and we then had three teachers in the new school°
-82-
JM:
JF:
JM:
So one teacher taught two grades?
Yes, there was a division of the subjects.
How was high school different from elementary school?
JF:
dld not hava in the
elementary°schoolWe g'jT h^V^u
the old
New England days, but we didn't^ave it in th"37 baCk
Latin, we had algebra, of course we d „
try. We had
fpr s t s » » s c,d a °
with a physics lab and
chemistry lab.
JM:
JF*
JM:
'
science department also
°h, you did have a lab?
IrS'»
-C LIDO
a Sma11
small lab
lahWe
had a
IT
«-K,-
I
&a5*MK>
-re
JF:
No, I don't think t-ha*-h
it Should be taking u^th
course higher educfr?
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
*"™M-
•»« — -
•
Pe°ple who *erf com^1
tlme and space to K
j
it was just
something
to attend
- 22 S. •.
"<&•
^
numbers ^""ngths of it were
Prepared te^t^ T
g" school.
^
y
1
SCh°ol?
'»
think we had well
Thsy w©iT0 col 1
students who were not doin
° °f whatever. Thera t. ^
lng Was
t0° WeH
concernpf6 Was a cettain
would h ' ®ut n°rmally the
P£ «=- S p3S S S?? r -."
afraid 0f having hi*
everyone
6 nis material
-83-
locker at schooWe'haS desk^to'store' wrVT*^* thing aS j
property and I don't recall a cincri * ^ books and our personal
school/ It may have happened W8}? lnStance of thievery at our
if it happened
PPened but I m not aware of it and I doubt
JM:
Do you remember when the lockers came in?
JF:
No.
JM:
Pretty good indicator of moral change when the school lockers came
JF:
here'at'slipperyCRockhin
^1
' 1 t0ok a
of course, there even there I
'tf Vere lockers there and,
at the time yet a
problem of stealing, it was a problem of ^
students didn't move frnm ni
convenience because
it was necessary to have a storaee^l0 °laSsl?°m 3 6reat daal and
lockers.
storage place in the hallway and
JM:
attended^ but/no locksmyS6lf'
11161:6 were
lockers in the school I
JF:
here''was"the'proximity to'X^mff ""j b° be
the size of the school. Now that can°wnity an<*
JM:
JF:
JM:
repetitive
smallness of
a bit
the
Regardless of the age?
I."™ 3r.J™ Sei.0™.""':!*;;
~«-t.
.lsht
.... »
t.
When did you decide to go on to college?
JF:
^"personally'said'when
^Mgh SCh°°
that's it. Encouragement from my mofter^olrl'd''^
Slippery Rock for a college catalog which I dfd
e V°"rlte t0
wrote for a catalog and placed it ww/t
°' so she
stumble over it and I got to reading it and°T k m°re °r less
So I Willingly enrolled when the time ca^e but it^o
a.llttle bit
Of gentle persuasion on the part of my mother to
in it. So I enrolled in college when I stiH
V® ln5erested
d 3g6
sixteen. Well people often ask me was thaj L advantav'
disadvantage. Well, socially it was a little bit of a® °r
disadvantage, I would say. Academically, I never find )f
disadvantage and, I think, in the overall picture I wild 3
it any differently, things being what theylere
I'm '"l n0t d°
-84-
necessarily advocating that people skip grades todav
it#S
n0t
3
Z°°d
male SV^ofugS"
JF-
ide*-
T t-hi i
L
it waff
think in my situation i \
it was because I didn't have the necessary competition in
?ybe
Sma11
group to have challenged me had I done otheSe
many bright kids around today
Ihenar 1™ ' r
,
" are
steady youngster a challenge to stay in a grade where^e"is^ *
th3t
1
yfwL^thatf ^
d
" y°U
h
a
-
to
That was in the fall of 1927.
S"h£gT
.
.
..
.
.
..
.
..
.
.
.
. you
„a
.
„
t
Wy .
.
.
.
.
.
ftsts S S K H X
K
Really?
JR:
Oh yes
-.2A£ss
a Vi-j v
percentage but aS"1'86'
1 wouldn't
be able t„ . .
SlipperyURock they"™' 3 Mrs"wc2yf whTltm ?.student before7
lives here in
The Dickers
£ y suSSe«ed that the Ch^K
&
rss rjcj"™
;££'•""
- oIS UT S«-"VV
over to talk to Mrs rhf ^
the first student she ^
suPPosed
and
supervision
college where
she agreed to V u
S°.we went
betweenHthree^nd^our^tud^n^s^^ thereafter bor^tuljen^s^and^ept
JM:
JF:
atu^ ff
No.
h^^^have your own kitchen,
next
charged us a $1 oo
you could
a ri
meals.
And
Today a
door
I l - T d - - a n d
$he d.
e paid her a $1 00 a
f°r"
the seco'nd^eaTl^
OUrSe" rUral education to te°aU rbeatnd
I
c
Why did you enroll for * r
-85-
"
1
ru^al
school. . .
JF.
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
Well I didn't know anything about city education
I had npvpr b>aar>
around the city much and my ^parents said well since you grew up in
2th ?n 17 and you know the country I think you better prepare to
than -F R 3 rur
school and two years was cheaper and much quicker
763
Ind wharT " ^ that S6emed t0 be the loS^al course to'take
tSo otW ft?? Ss°lng Zu Sayl the second year that I was in college
that time were staying with Mrs rhamhpre
A
we made arrangements with Mrs. Chambers to cook our own meal but
You were saying what it cost you every year in school.
year 1 "aS ln sch°o1 total expenses for everything Sitlnn6
tuition, books, room, board--cost me $600. The second yea?$40of
$400.
SeU::steifh°°if and
°£irTt^oS
Es>
^•aifid"S:o^
JM:
In two years.
JF:
In two years.
JM:
One banana split in two years
P-p" e^edl^tKthe ^ame
becLse
JM:
What kind of students were there, what classes did t-v.oxr
7
how much money did they have, what were they like?
*
'
JF:
depression'years^getting llllV^
^ ^
did not have a lotSof monev
ihev w»n deprf\ss1™- Most ""dents
means I would say. That they would be illl'
very ordinary
in those days. In relation to other people they were^ildle60?16
An occasional person maybe had a little hitmiddle class,
certainly there was no
No fast cars and all that sort of thing?
-86-
, _ vQ,r4«cr a car. I don't recall of a
I don't recall of any student having a ca
single car on the college campus in those days.
, , . .
aee of college students with the
Wasn't this the beginning of that age 01
thin^
raccoon coats and hip flasks and that sort of thing.
11
amnnp d.M
the people
that I knew.
I'm sure
Not in our "liege
or notnot among
^
^ raccoon
there were certain students in th
don't think I think
coats, I don't recall of any raccoon coats
I don t think,
think
that must have been a more wealthy community than this.
Was there much of a college atmosphere in Slippery Rock in those
days? I mean, like the raccoon coat or any other way. Was it
considered a, was school a social as well as an academic event?
I would say it was social. There was a . . . dances were held
practically every evening after dinner.
Every evening?
Every evening in the gymnasium and the President of the College and
the Dean of Women and the Dean of Men were always there to
supervise and to see that things were in order.
Every evening?
Well, at least five evenings a week. But it was the usual thing,
short dance and then there were. . . .
What music?
Where was the music from?
t
Victrola?
Frankly, that has gone clear by me. I don't even remember at that
time. You see I was younger socially. I remember going to the
dances to look on, but I was not a participant in the dances.
Therefore, that has not registered with me so well. But there was,
I would say, quite a social atmosphere at the college, for you see,
it was not a commuting college. Only a few of the students who
lived in the immediate vicinity of Slippery Rock commuted. It was
before the days of automobiles, that is before the days of
automobiles for college students. The parents might have had an
automobile at that time, but not the students. The, we had classes
on Saturday, of course, too.
Oh you did?
Up until Saturday noon, and students were encouraged, strongly
encouraged to stay at college over the weekend, and generally they
did that. They would maybe go home once a month or once every five
or six weeks or if they lived more distant even less than that.
them to stay?63"
Str°ngly encouraged?
-87-
Was there pressure put on
Yes. There was pressure put on and even to the point where the
President Eisenberg would take an interest in an student to the
point of calling him in sometimes and advising him that he thought
he was going home too frequently.
Is that right?
The President took a great interest in each individual student.
Apparently.
The President at that time, to call students into the office if they
were observed walking, cutting across the campus. There was to be
no campus cutting. You were allowed to stroll on the campus, but
not to cut across and beat paths in the campus.
Was that across the grass.
Across the grass.
He'd call you in if you crossed, walked in the grass.
Yes. I knew of more than one student who got called in and Dr.
Eisenberg was a very stern disciplinarian. A little carry over I
suppose from the old high school, elementary type of thinking an
it was a rather narrow chalkline that people expected you to walk
And students were dismissed from college who didn't fit in.
Oh, they were?
They were advised that their college days had come to an end, on
occasion. This didn't happen frequently, but Eisenberg I think was
a reasonable man, and he didn't arbitrarily throw people out, but
only if a person insisted in breakingall rules and regulations.
People also were dismissed for academic reasons.
If vou look, think back to the college, what do you picture in your
mind? What stands out about the campus itself in your memory.
Now, are you speaking about the physical campus.
Yes.
The thing that stands out particularly as far as the physical campus
was concerned was the neat and orderly condition of it. The
neatness of the buildings, the janitorial work, the lawns and the
trees and the shrubbery. No clutter was on the campus.
No litter either?
No litter on the campus. The campus was very well taken care of.
In fact it was a I suppose an outstanding spot in the whole
surrounding community.
-88-
JM:
i_
c -w wflv? Was it just natural or did people say
we'want'to'make ° th i s campus the most outstanding thing in the
community or the area?
JF:
22 fiZ\S "2
••
that day and age.
JM
Of course, there wasn't as much litter, I don't imagine.
JF
There wasn't as much.
JM
Was there a place to go and eat, and get drinks and things?
JF
Yes, a small stand. Grover Watson's stand down near where the
Paradise Inn is now located.
JM:
Let's see, that's down Cooper Street, right at the end of Cooper
Street.
JF
Well, at the end of Maltby Avenue.
JM
Oh yes, where West Hall, near West Hall.
JF
Yes. And then there was another little place, right in there. I
think the building is still along there. I think they called it
Mom's Place, maybe. It was a kind of a place where students could
go in to get something to eat. But these were pretty small places,
and of course there was no place on the campus, in those days like
there is now. No student union, nothing of that sort where you
could eat. But students didn't have money to spend for that kind
of thing in those days, so there wasn't any big demand for it. If
they did eat and snack they would probably go down town to the
grocery store and do it in their rooms.
JM.
Oh I see, yeah. What about sports? What do you remember about
sports? Was the football team a big event?
JF:
The football team was a big event. Coach Thompson, who's name is
I re™fmbered even to this day and age, of course, was the coach
e' fnd he/made tl*.
-i
He was
f
coach °f, 5he football team, but also the basketball team
nnitP fh!
Su WaS made of sP°rts in those days. These were
student body turned out and in pretty nearly
full forrp
th6y
Stayed
over weekends and this was a social
^
There was^great deaT^f' ^ i° the events were W®11 attended,
concerned
V SCh°01 Spirit as far as sPorts were
S p5?gram was not as extensive as it is now,
of
course
but
i
t
or course, but it was well
supported.
W?
JM:
What do you recall of thp
Slippery Rock looked H V P Jh i i?an
What dominated?
Physically?
-89-
c
Picture what the town
What stood out about it?
you
of
JF:
Well.
JM:
Was there anything?
JF:
Of course, many of the streets »«e unpaved at that^e«n*acant
walkine from Chambers' down on Maple btreer aero
lotwherethe
present-day
Education Building stands, one had to be
careful of not tangling with a skunk at nigh .
JM:
What was that?
JF:
In fact, my roommate tangled with a skunk one night.
JM:
Is that right?
JF:
And one had to be very wary of that. So. walking around the streets
and crossing the streets, they were, there was mud
You had
have overshoes, boots to get across the streets and then, of
course, the town was smaller. There were many
at the time yet. And beyond that the physical comment I don t
think there was too much difference. Of course, there was. . . .
local businesses did serve the local community and probably were
more
thriving^ comparatively speaking in that day than they are now
when people can drive out of town to do a lot of their shopping.
JM:
Was there a hotel then, where the bank now stands?
JF:
No. There was no hotel then.
when I was a student.
JM:
What else was downtown?
JF'
Well of course, there were two hardware stores. The!Meier Hardware
store which was then the Rogers Hardware store. Bingham s Hardware
was up the street further. The Bard store was of course a big
*!•
o+- hViat- f-iniP
It was a country store that carried a good
line^^clothing and sold a lot to the Silage students. There was
no store on the college campus at that time. And they were very
iealous to try to keep the trade downtown then, and fought very
hard when the college started getting into business of that kind.
Cafeteria business and so on, taking business away from the
do^to™
Now there was another store down about where Brooks is
downtown.
It was referred to sometimes as the
Baker>s store.
?c' nf SlioDerv Rock
You would have to have seen it to have
appreciated it Se you went in things were disorderly , I think
PP?H J P Treasonable word to use.
You ferreted your way through
W°
I never have seen anything like it in
nri v lit aisles
all'my'experiences. But he had almost everything in the way of
groceries and clothing mainly as I recall.
JM:
JF:
The First National Bank stood there
What stores do you remember?
Where was that located?
That was located where the Brooks store is now.
-90-
John Brooks'
plumbing and appliances.
Across from Snyders.
JM:
And it's next to the Boron Gas Station.
JF:
Yes. Yes. Where the Boron Gas Station now stands there was a
restaurant at the time.
JM:
What stood where the Sunoco Station now stands?
JF*
Well there was a huge frame building on that corner and older Mr.
Brooks, Levi Brooks, later took out that building and I really
don't know what was in there when I was a college student. I don't
remember, I think it was before the time of Brooks.
JM:
What about where the Falcon Station on the corner, the Falcon
Station?
JF:
Well, I don't remember what was on that corner.
JM:
The restaurant next the Falcon Station?
JF:
That was Topley's Restaurant.
JM:
It's always been a restaurant?
JF:
Well, it was a restaurant and a bus stop, when I was a college
student here.
JM
I see they have that mill stone on the outside.
JF:
Yes.
JM
Do you know any reason why they have that mill stone In the side of
their building? What was that to illustrate?
JF:
thiTlk itsJust t0
the thingPUt ^
tbere»
Preserve it, and I really don't know who
sure its just a matter of preserving
but
JM:
Probably represented something; was it a mill at one time?
JF:
stonetnd'had'S illdd'd •^
pu^os:fand to p«s^ it"'" *"
JM:
JF:
Just g^hered up a mill a
f°r Native
office
It had8a bell tW^lt "aS 3 building near the post
you have to go certato nl»eP T' ^th 3 bel1
outside. Did
Is that Wh3t ^""
was? Special booths? DU ™^1?hone7 u
•
y e have a phone in those days?
I don't think so. I don't reran
college days. We did not have a teIenhUSlng autelePhone in my
reason to call home and no other re^! ^ atThome so 1 had no
And I think what they called the r ®on that 1 needed a telephone.
central at that time--it was the
-91-
ffi-SS E"S3^
later.
JM:
Did everyone in Slippery Rock have electricity by then by 1927?
JF:
I would think that practically everyone had electricity and that was
a ereat treat for me as a student because we didn t have
electricity on the farm yet. That didn't come until some time in
the late '30s after the REA under Franklin Delano Roosevelt got
rural electrification.
JM:
Yeah. What about radios?
Rock to your knowledge?
JF:
I didn't know anybody who had one.
but I didn't.
JM:
You didn't know anybody?
JF:
I didn't know anybody who had one. It was pretty early days for
radio then yet. I'm sure some of the more affluent people had
radio.
JM:
Not the average person?
JF:
Not the average person. I don't think I had listened to a radio.
That's what makes me think that people whom I knew did not have
them, because I don't think I had listened to a radio. I might
have a little bit earlier in 1925. I do remember the crystal sets
where you used the earphones, but I can't recall exactly the da e
of when I first heard these. I did, the first inaugural address by
a President, I heard was by Calvin Coolidge. Now Jim you help me
with that. That was in 1924?
JM:
Right.
JF*
1924. A gentleman in Portersville had loaned a radio to the high
school, brought it in, set it up, and we listened to Coolidge s
inaugural address. And we did sit there and listen to it because
we hadn't heard radios before so we were willing to listen to it.
I recall in later years when I was a teacher of taking a radio tor
students to listen to an inaugural address and they didn't seem
very much interested in listening to it. The first televised
inaugural address that I recall listening to was in 1950 in
Eisenhower's inaugural.
JM:
In '52.
TTT-
Tn '52 at the Slippery Rock High School when someone loaned a _
television to the high school and we had the students listen to it
in the auditorium and I think they listened pretty well at that
Did everyone have a radio in Slippery
-92-
I suppose some people had them,
i -j
o e a relatively new thing.
I do recall
time because again this was a
and somebody would have to
%£% quite frequently during the ineugur.1.
see, what else was there.
IM:
IF:
Were there any streets paved?
Well, Main Street and Franklin Street I think were probably the only
ones that were paved.
JM:
Bricked or concrete?
JF:
They were concrete, I believe.
JM:
How far out were they paved?
JF-
Oh I think just to the edge of the borough. I think possibly Main
Street I think that pavement ran to Butler. Yes I'm sure that it
did
Route 8 it was at that time and it was paved to Butler. And
maybe the road to New Castle. I believe it was paved to New
Castle but beyond those main roads, the streets in the borough
itself'were not yet paved. At least many of them were not paved.
You know these, you get accustomed to taking these things tor
granted after a while and I do remember the mud on Maple Street
because I was living there. But some of the other streets I don t
remember quite so well.
JM:
Were there street lights?
JF:
Yes, there were some street lights.
JM:
Gas or electric?
JF:
Electric.
JM:
Electric?
JF:
Electric street lights.
JM:
Well, what was the college like? Well maybe we had better wait and
hear the rest of your story. What happened when you finished your
two years?
JF:
Well, when I finished the two years, I got a teaching position in
the Oak Grove School, Muddy Creek Township, my home township.
JM
Did you have any difficulty getting a job?
JF
No.
JM
Two years of college.
JF
I had no difficulty getting a job. I had the best certificate of
anyone in that in our township. No other teacher had two years of
education. My only problem was, I was not yet of legal age to
-93-
teach in school in September.
JM:
How old were you?
JF:
18 was the legal age to teach, and I was not 18 on the 23rdof
October
The school board was very generous to me. They employea
me to be the teacher with the proviso the substitute would take
over through September until I became 18 years of age. I marvel
sometimes that ?hey were so generous or bothered to getting me a
job under those conditions, but that's the way it was. The
substitute teacher opened the term and then I took oyer after he
left
I had to go around to interview some school directors and I
recall very vividly that I did much of this on foot. I
about 7 miles one day wearing gum boots over country roads
interview a school director who was working on a.chicken farm- I
followed him around through the chicken house, "bile
5
—
interview and he was the director for Oak Grove School and things
apparently worked out all right. He must have given the word to
the school board to employ me. I got the job in any event.
JM:
He had to interview you?
JF:
Yes. I consider myself very fortunate. I'm very^grateful for
public schools in the United States, in my community, that I, as a
country kid, a country hick, you might say, could get an education
and go on to college and become a teacher and have the privilege
teaching all grades from grades 1 all up through graduate school.
JM:
You taught every single grade?
JF-
Yes. I'm sure a few other people have had that experience too. But
there are not too many more living and around in this day and age
who have had that experience.
JM:
Did you enjoy teaching.
JF:
Yes, very much. I found it pretty strenuous at first, as I think
most new teachers do; it was not easy by any stretch of the
imagination. But by and large I enjoyed it and I enjoyed my
college work more than the other and I enjoyed the graduate work
more than any of the college work and I ended up with a good last
year which has left a pleasant memory. But I certainly did
appreciate my college students and particularly the graduate
students.
JM:
I enjoyed graduate school, too.
elementary school teacher?
JF:
Well I remained in the country school as a strictly elementary
teacher for two years. And then I was able to get a position ma
eraded school and what we referred to as departmental work and what
we call elementary today, teaching arithmetic and spelling in
erades 5, 6, 7 and 8. On that particular year, you were asking
gout the availability of jobs. Well, I made the change after the
-94-
How long did you remain as an
™
....
£*;.£»!n'iiSMwp.™!".- •
sn
•••'•
continued for ten years.
JM:
JF:
You were a principal for ten years?
Yes I was a principal--a teaching principal. So all of that was
elementary work actually because there was no middle school. Then
I went into junior high work in the city of Butler teaching
mathematics, but at that point I was invited to come to Slippery
Rock and I did not apply for the position.
JM:
You were invited?
JF:
I was invited to come and came and had an interview and looked the
situation over and decided to come as a supervising teacher in the
laboratory high school.
JM:
What year was that?
JF:
That was in 1943.
JM:
Had the campus changed much since you had been a student?
JF:
Well, not greatly, I would say. Now, of course, by that time we
were in the war years and men were getting very scarce on the
campus through several years but I think the old values and manner
of operating the school, the size of the school, were pretty much
the same. We had not reached the stage of expansion which took
place after the World War II, at that time.
JM:
Physically, everything was pretty much the same as it had been?
JF:
There had been a few buildings added from the time I had been a
student, for instance now I'm speaking about coming back here to
teach in 1943. We had gone through a period of expansion
physically in the form of buildings under the Roosevelt Programs of
buildings such as North Hall, the Library, and the new Laboratory
School. Those were the basic buildings.
JM:
Did that increase the enrollment at the school, or was it just
because the money was there that they were built?
JF:
J think it was pretty largely that the money was there. Because we
had "ached a figure of around a 1000 in enrollment in the late 20s
udrtd U=r- T T A °n t
}*eve that figure was surpassed until
S
™ hL »
-, n ^ Pretty larBely a matter of money;
we had a local influential Democrat.
JM:
Who's that?
Both junior and senior high school.
JF:
cic
Party.
-95-
"
V
,
There was the possibility of an
increase in federal funds for the college, for expansion.
JM:
How did it change after the war?
JF:
Well, after the war, of course, there was a great influx ofstudents
and expansion, that we got into changing over to a State Colleg
system as opposed to a single purpose teaching school.
JM:
Normal school?
JF:
Normal school and teachers college.
JM:
University?
JF-
Yes university type. So I think the greatest, most obvious change
was'the increase in size and the multiplicity of the offerings m
the curriculum.
JM:
Completely changed the character of the school?
JF:
Yes, I would say it changed the character of the school
considerably.
-96-
How did the college change?
They had a multi-purpose.
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Marion Hartley
Interviewers: Shirley Cubbison and Peggy Mershimer
CM
You have spent your life here in Slippery Rock?
MH
Yes, I was bora here, right next door, at 231 South Main Street.
CM
What are some of your earliest recollections of life in Slippery
Rock?
MH:
My earliest recollection, of course, would be of my home life, which
was very different from life today. It centered around the home;
the evenings were spent at home. We had devotions every evening
and every morning. Our life also centered on the church. On
Sunday we went to Sunday school, Junior Endeavor, Christian
Endeavor, and church services in the evening. We were not forced
to go; we wanted to go. We were more of a family, very close,
where today it is very different from that.
CM:
The church was a social center, too, was it not?
MH:
No, not when I was small. We had very few social activities. We
had a dinner before the congregational meeting, which was one a
year, and at Christmas we were given an apple and a popcorn ball
and a little bag of hardtack candy. Those are the only two social
events involving the church. Of course, our Sunday School class
had a social meeting once a month. We did not have the social
activities then that they do now. We did not have dinner for the
public. I was about 15 years old when those started
CM
I should have asked you when you were born?
MH
I was born August 29, 1910.
CM
Can you also tell us a little about your elementary education?
MH
main^uildine "th^ev"
when 1 we*t
to kindergarten up in th
door. Mrs Hamm was the teacher
She^ "^^^
Everybody just loved her- we all cripH W?S
°J teacher.
ried when we had to go on to
first trade
In flf fil
th" 1 W3S her
helperf and * asked her'to let^e so anoth
told my mother later that she had wasted"
°u klnderSartenwasn't wasted. From there I went to thf M dTi w"-,iC really
MOD®L School, which is
West Hall. From the Model School T
was on the third floor of the maiA building"
^Sch°o1' whiC
CM:
MH:
Who^were some of your teachers that you can recall besides Mrs.
I doubt if you would know any except Mrs. Hugh Bard.
-97-
She taught m
in home economics.
CM:
Any other names you can recall?
MH:
Miss Walters taught music; Miss Grayhand and Miss Snyder, but they
are not from here. At that time Slippery Rock seemed to go out of
town to get teachers, it was very hard for a local person to gel a
job up there. But not it isn't; there seem to be more teachers
from here.
CM:
After you completed your high school work, did you go on to
college?
MH:
I went to Normal School, as it was called then
I am not sure of
the year it became a college. I went back in 1958 and got my
certification for Special Education, which I ended up teaching a
lot.
CM:
You saw a lot of the college in two different eras, didn't you?
MH:
Yes, and I found it to be very different.
CM:
Could you comment on some of your teachers during those Normal
School years?
MH'
I had Dr. Russel Morgan, who graduated from here. You see I took
my classes in the summer, I went one winter, and the rest of the
time in the summer. I had Dr. Mary Shinaberry for most classes-Dr. Mary and Dr. Charles.
CM:
This is when you were getting your certification in Special
Education?
MH:
Yes, that right.
CM
Anyone else you can recall from your earlier college education?
MH:
Well did you know Mr. Lady?
I had Mr. Lady and Herb Book.
Lady taught mathemetics and Herbert Book taught history.
CM:
He taught me in history in high school, also.
MH:
Hanna Parks taught English. I had Mrs. Fred Vincent for speech.
She was Miss Eichler then. She taught speech and dramatics.
CM:
Of all of the people you recall from your school days, who do you
think is the most memorable, the outstanding teacher.
MH:
I would say Mable Vincent. She was always so very kind and
considerate. She made the class with her sense ofhumor; you _
really enjoyed her class. And, of course, Mable Vincent still is a
beautiful woman and it was a pleasure to just sit and look at her.
When she came here, she was very, very outstanding.
-98-
Mr,
CM:
MH:
- ,, p rules and regulations that you did not like?
What were some of the rui
-r J• J
like them, because they did not
Well, it wasn't that I did n
Qf course f the students
affect me. We had a very
One
school was regulated with a bell.
weren't on the streets. The school w
^^
^&
student got his tuition pa
campus. They weren't
bell at 7:30 AM, and the students were^ccam^ #
^^
allowed to sign out. If
nQt allowed to come into
dorm, I had to go up the , , y t
of course, at that time
ts<
town. They weren t ro
S
thought of these things at
there was absolutely no dr:Inking won*
g
President thin,
that time, that I know of
IDr. Eisenberg
Ustened
We had
chfpel^and we£we?easeated at 9:45 every morning
Each person had
his or her seat, and they took roll. He was a big man with a
powerful voice. He was married to a Johnson, and Lil Johnson was a
and she really sent overboard. The girls were not allowed to
wear patent leather shoes, because their underwear might reflect
when they were dancing with the boys. Everyone dressed to go to
the dining room, both the boys and the girls. Not like now, when
see them going in in shorts. At 9:45 at night another belu ia"g»
and you had 15 minutes to get ready for bed. At ten o'clock all
lights were out in the dorms.
IZn,
CM:
Were the rules the same for the boys as they were for the girls as
far as bed times and such?
MH:
Oh yes. There was the boys dorm, South Hall. And most of the
students worked. I've asked so many students to do yard work, but
they are not interested. If you wanted some work done, manual
work, all you had to do was call the Normal School. People worked
their way through school then. Now they go on government loans,
and are paid for going. I scrubbed everybody's kitchen in this
town and worked at the telephone company across the street at night
with my books beside me trying to study. But not today. I know we
did not have these houses here, like next door, where you have 16
people living in that house. It was beautiful when this house
belonged to Jack Barron. This was the finest house in town, people
from everywhere came. Of course, the students tore out the
beautiful cherry woodwork the first year.
CM:
Students did live off campus when you attended Normal School?
MH:
Yes, my mother and I kept students. We had some mighty fine boys
live with us. Everyone around here boarded students, but they were
supervised.
CM:
°° yOUJeel
stuoenr/
there WSS perhaps more
MH:
EK.-S'.S
-99-
respect from the town toward the
Frank Bingham, he was about 100 years old ^en he
j
to get so angry when students^^f^^ren do not know old
have almost come to the conclusion that chil
^^
people. The old people are not in the home, tn y g
nursing home.
I know I was glad that my children had the chance to grow up around
my husband's grandmother; it taught them a lot.
ffl:
I agree.
It makes a difference.
Most young people do not realize
that they will be old some day.
S,rSuISi»Sa1'S"„5"p"^ tr £i=St S5K2,'2XS"*
had a different house the .
from the Methodist Church up
we called that the orcha ,
pPT1Tyer's house. That was orchard,
PP ^ where the Chautauqua was.
where the tent was. We would
back."
;M:
FFL:
It was during the summer?
V
T think it was a dollar for a ticket, and you worked like the
dickens to get the money to ^
there'were "r^of ^ever" We had some really wonderful
.
S
T T-VIINV back
We also had a movie house, cost a
"lick McDonald? Louis's brother playedthemoviepiano;
Shen lack wasn't there it was Rowles who^played
By
movies were where the Grang
,
and doWn the street.
Tell?
th3t tSecou?see W:heenai8grew
up? th'e sthoo! a£d the town were very
close. They hai a movie I believe
h^sS^t^nces,"but they
Friedman and I used to go up th ^
^^^policemen. ^
were conducted very we.1^^ about once a month> and they were
firemen had the
tQ different homes to make
nice. Everybody went.
.6
hild
x aiways had rows of
candy in the evening When I was a
kitchen as I was teaching
kids, mosV ??nd?
nils to?n was peaceful, like a family. Of
course°most of the town was related: they were all Bards and
Binghams. We never locked our doors.
:M:
When was the Main Street paved?
[H:
nn.
in iq9S
Thev took all of the beautiful trees down that
S?d »Sline the'street. It was not necessary to cut those trees
a™ bp.cause we did not cut ours' down.
-100-
r first
CM:
CM:
teaching job when you finished school,
Where was y
I started to
actually four places.
T
raueht in three places, acij ule. McDermot was my
teach in Marion Township, east of
x taught at Ray,
first school, that is where
net Frank
7th and 8th gradesthen I went to Boyers, to the big
The first day I
ItaUansand I mean big. They were
•
I
walting to go to school.
went to school, I thought they »e
hiP in Mercer County, and
taught half a year in Wolf Creek^
^ x got in a place
then Slippery Rock, i
and I was happy.
• - rhe Sliooery Rock Area Elementary School after you
lot your
spec
ialeducation certification,
,-e.
MH:
No. Jenny got sick and Franc
No.
I took some time out to "
and my mother got sick, so
g ^^peopie and I had no
^ principalt and every year she
gub>
x toid her not to call, that I
notion of teaching. Fa
would call me and want
that was special education, and
was interested in one thing, andthat™
me one day and
they didn't have that at
.2?e^ay
and "talk with Dr. Yingling.
told me to get to Butler right^
The next d
x went
They're opening a room in Slippery
into summer school.
CM:
Where was you classroom when you started Special Education in
Slippery Rock?
MH-
Special education was in the American Legion. We had to fold up for
bingo, fold up for meetings. Then we were in the Presbytei u
Church. The Legion Hall, the fire hall, and the Presbyterian
Church were all used temporarily while we were waiting for the
construction of the day Slippery Rock Area Elementary School.
CM:
Do you know anything about the Model School on New Castle Road?
MH:
Yes, my mother went there. This was more like a finishing school.
You know, Harrisville almost got the college. They really wanted
it, and they almost got it because they were near the railroad. 1
regularly talk with a woman from Harrisville who says she is
awfully glad they did not get the college when she sees what is has
done to Slippery Rock. Of course, I am very thankful for the
college.
CM:
Some of your ancestors were involved in setting up the college here
in Slippery Rock. Do you recall who they were?
MH:
Robert Bard, Frank P. Bingham both worked very hard. Robert Bard
was my grandfather. Jack Bard, Horace Bard, they all worked very
hard to get the school here. Also the Watsons. I think everyone
in Slippery Rock worked hard. What they talked about most were
those terrible trips to Harrisburg. It took so long to get there
then.
-101-
CM:
Jenny Bartz and Aunt Grace were friends?
MH:
Yes, Jenny and I walked to M°orhe<£'? ^Edith^hristly^and sit
we would get Mrs Moorhead and go fiallagher's
and we'd always
there for awhile Then we'd stop back at aanagnei.
get buttermilk to drink there.
CM:
How did Jenny and Grace know each other?
MH:
Through your grand.other
Hcw your gra^other and « he^e
aCi°e" frilly per^anHhe JSKbly saw you grandmother and
iust started talking to her.
-102-
oral History Project
Slippery Rock University Centennral
Alumnus: Carl Woodling
Interviewer: Shirley Cubbison
SC:
rw-
recollections
What were you earUest pers
of Slippery Rock?
^ ^^ ^ ^ ^^^
I first came to Slippery ROCK in
j>
uent t0 Baccalaureate on
friend who was graduating that J**. ^^ Qnly clme j ever saw
Sunday and Dr. Killer was there, ^
and Dr. Entz was also
him. I remember his being
ln August of 1940 to visit
there. Then I came to Slippery started t0 go together--the summer
Louise. That was when she an
worked for Dr. Entz and Dr.
of 1940--and we later marri.e .
Dr.
Grove (Hotel) for dinner.
Entz took us up hete to the
come and i „as introduced to
McMaster and Mrs. McMaster nao ju
them at that time
&nd sprlng j canle to Slippery
During the fall, th
wnuld
walk through the campus.
rb^mrsVshow«^
Building^ the
they had to build a whole new one
That fire was during
^
Miller's administration. He came in 34 and left in
.
»
will also mention that Louise told me that the year she »,!»
1930, they had just finished the East Gym. And then the training
school was just finished.
SC:
So there was quite a bit of expansion in 30's and 40's?
CW:
Yes, in the 30's and then also in the early 40's. The high school
was added to the training school, the old training school had been
in West Hall. The high school was on the third floor of Old Main.
Then when the training school moved up to their new building, of
course, the high school moved to West Hall. When they finished t e
high school, of course, they left West Hall, which was then used
for college classes. After I came I was told I had a very good
memory and was very interested in the college. I didn't know to
much about Slippery Rock outright.
Most of the college teachers lived in Slippery Rock at that
time and, well, the town was glad to have the college because there
probably wouldn't have been a town if it hadn't been for the
college. Bout some resented the people at the college. They
didn't bother too much with the college, however, the Presbyterian
Church, the stone building, probably would never have been built l
it hadn't been for the college people like Dr. Blaisdell and all
the old timers. The original church, was built in 1854 and then in
1883, before the college came, they remodeled the church a little
bit. In 1927 they built the stone church up around the olden
wooden church. Then in 1948 it burned. One reason it did burn was
-103-
because the old wooden church was right f^ide all of the
you see. But the new church that was built m 1947 LS^^°orThere's little wood in it. The Highland Church said they would
never do^Sat the Presbyterian Chu?ch did. And they turned around
and did the very same thing.
.
,
T rame out
I came to Slippery Rock permanently m 1945 when I came our
of the service. We were married in 1941 just before Dr. McMaster
had passed away. You know what happened to him; he committe
suicide
We were lust married and Louise asked if she could stay
because"I was going to the service. Before Dr. McMaster died Dr.
Entz had been Dean of Instruction and then he was madeJ^an
Students and Director of Student Personnel. Dr.
k
1937 and he was Dean of Instruction, taking over Dr. Entz wor ,
h. ...
.....Id b.
But Pearl Harbor came on the 7th of December of 1941 and that
v.
A
riipi-urp
Because the boys were starting to go and th
always felt that he was the acting president but he was not.
right in the books that he was the president. Bob Watson
it
The was'down and in the fall of 1942, I think in October,
some Army personnel came and viewed the college and d®cided it was
ideal set-up for training soldiers and so they decided to take
that for a year and that would run out probably around the spring
of 1944
Zey brought the* in in the spring of '43 and there was
only about 100 girls and 2 boys, in the college
They let th^^
t6llS
for°the Army'personnei.
Some of "aye^in West Hall and that
went on f™ a year. I was back on a couple of furloughs when they
were here and it was really a big thing in Slippery Rock,
opened up the town.
What was the town's reaction to having the Army trainee's here?
Tjen rhev were very well received. It built up the work at the
college you know, for the maintenance and everything. In January
of 1944'Dr. Entz was told that they would be phasing it out in
Anril of '44
He was very much worried. When they left he just
had the 100 girls and 3 or 4 boys.
He was notified in January of
1945
they
might
have
to
close
the
college.
Anyway, the spring
1945 they m g
^^
d o
SQme of the boys starte
back that summer.
comingS
Then in August was the final surrender of
-104-
. „
Entz in September of '45 felt
Dr
the boys kept coming.
He was
o n t h e presidency.
that they needed a younger »an 'to
J tQ i t
He s a i d i f he and
ready for retirement and^dito ^feel^P, d
He
Mrs Entz were to enj y
time was up around the 21st of
did resign in September andh
^ ^ b o a r < J e l e c t e d ,) r Dale Houk
January of '46. I" December ^ w a s v e r y m u c h u p s e t because Dr.
as their new P resld £JJ * n
liked Dr. Entz.
Entz was leaving, They J* 1 *
a b o a r d m e m b e r s a id to Maree McKay,
In later years, you kn ,
retiring." She said, "What do
-You know Maree, Dr. Weisen
^
They all left
you mean? They all got fir
j d o n , t know a b o u t Dr<
under fire except Dr. Entz, yw
anyway that was Maree's
Maltby, but Dr. Morrow did
^
Umise
&nd
H ouk came in.
expression! Dr. Entz left in^Janu«y ^ ^ ^ t Q s l i p p e r y
had been friends withj 1
. f r i e n d s 0 f ours. We visited
Rock and they continued
He died in 1957 and she
0 f t en.
their home in Wl J- liam ® P ° rii 5 s b e i e f t word for her nephew to send
died in 1964. When she died she left ^
T
cn
those (pictures) on
my
Lillian Griffin's engravings.
— S^ i »j r < 2 - i - J S5-J-.ST ST
tsA&rxrsi r:us sssf s.; ejrsr
students in from Penn State because Penn State was so crowded.
They were engineering students who were to gent two years here and
then go to the main campus, weren't they?
Yes, to main campus. About 1950--I think that was the end of the
Penn State students. The chapel was closed during Dr. Houk's
administration. Harrisburg would not give them money to repair tne
chapel. The chapel meant a lot to the alumni. Dr. Houk respecte
that, but Mr. Bauer was very much against it. It didn't mean
anything to him; he graduated in State College and he had closed it
1955. He didn't try to get any money to repair it and the alumni
gave money to try to save it and get it repaired. During Dr.
Watrel's time, it was torn down because he didn't have any use for
it here. But they did save Old Main, and they remodeled it quite a
bit. It's very nice, but the chapel was gone. I guess they ^ av ®
some of the stained glass windows out of the chapel. They put them
in the Alumni Room in North Hall.
Those are very nice but they're really a small portion of the
stained glass.
That's right, Dr. Elder--Walter Elder--well, he was very much
opposed. He said the stone in that was imported and they didn t
save a bit of it, you know. Bauer was to blame for the loss of the
organ. They took the organ out of there and put it down in the
basement of the Science Hall and the roof leaked and it got wet.
They took it out and threw it in the dump. But then, on the other
-105-
hand, Dr. Weisenfluh didn't do anything to save it either. |>r.
Houk was partly to blame too because it was closed in 1955 and he
resigned in 1956. Dr. Weisenfluh followed Dr. Houk and I would say
that it was Dr. Houk and Mr. Bauer that should have perhaps had it
maintained better. Dr. Weisenfluh came in they had a building
program started up, but the chapel was too far gone. The alumni
had given quite a bit of money to save it. Dr. Watrel
anything about it either, so it was a sad situation.
We bought the house on Main st. in May of 1946. As I said,
Louise came to Slippery Rock in 1930 and she lived
Mrs. Hilliard. Vonnie and Vevia are her cousins
She lived with
them in their house down on Maple St. I came back in October o
1945 and houses were hard to get and that time, so we lived
Hilliard's apartment and I worked for the Veterans Administrati
in Butler. We lived in the apartment until the May of 1946.
bought the Grine property; it was a big house. Barnett s live
there now. They bought the house from the Stauffer s.
Stauffer's bought the house from us, we built a new house righ
above it. Mrs. Jackie Evans lives there now. At the other h™se'
we have student tenants. The next tenant was Bill White and his
wife and then Archie Dodds. He and Mrs. P°dds :r^left Miss™
the 2nd floor apartment for 7 years and then when they left> Mis
Elva Rice the English teacher lived there. And then we sold the
house, but before that, we rented the house and moved up to the new
house we built, a split level, and Miss Rice lived there for two
yCarS'Louise
had retired in 1959 from Slippery Rock after 29 years.
She had retirement, but she had only 3 years Social Security.
e
state employees in PA did not get Social Security until 1956
But
she didn't go back to work at the college; she made it up working
at the Church part-time and for Mr. Patterson at the real estate.
But my Social Security was OK. I had 9 years Social Security
before I came to the college, and then the last 3 years I was at
the college I had Social Security.
You were in Florida for awhile, when did you come back?
I came back in 1965 and worked at the college until 1972 and then
retired. Louise was transferred from Dr. Weisenfluh s office to
Mr. Dodds office and she worked for Mr. Dodds 3 years
There was a
conflict there because she had worked for Dr. Houk. You know the
political side of it. But there was no political business with me
at all
I liked Dr. Weisenfluh and was sorry I ever had left, but
lust the same I did. Well, I had charge of some maintenance when I
came back and the laundry. Of course, they closed the laundry m
1965. I enjoyed my time at the college very much.
Well, you saw quite a bit of change.
Yes, we sure did--from the 1940's up through the 1970's.
Quite an era of expansion under Dr. Weisenfluh?
Yes that was true and then they had that when Dr. Carter first came
-106-
and then of course it va
P
^ b u i l t d u r i n g Carter and
came. You see, Vmcen
w a s r e a lly planned by Weisenfluh.
Watrel's administration,
Hamer Hall, Rhoads Hall was
Then the classroom
"built after Watrel was here,
built. The Boozel DiningHall ™ 5 ^>u ^ r e m o d e l i n g t h e
y
Now this summer I
That is
t 0 b e a quick dining hall.
Weisenfluh Hall a
g
Alumni D
NoW| j had never been in
Boozel Hall°until Alumni day
it's^vepr^nice. ^Of^course,
i^the^orth^al^StafP^dining room.
I've been there, that's real
You see, when Louise passed away, I opened a contact with
Sally Lennox and she got Dr. Aebersold up here. I got a very nice
letter from Dr. Aebersold when Louise passed away recognizing that
she had been the president's secretary for so many years
Then Dr.
Dawson and I set up a memorial scholarship in English and English
Education and (they) called it the Louise Kelly Woodling Memorial
Scholarship. I gave $5,000 and then every year at her birthdate,
which is May, I give $500 towards that. Then we'd gotten
contributions from people that had gone to school here and the
faculty that knew her. We got, oh, around $2,000 on that. Also,
from relatives and so forth. Mr. Ross iter is the man that's in
charge of the program. So what we're planning and doing isn't
final yet; but the way it's set up is that at my death it's to be
called the Carl and Louise Woodling Scholarship and I'm to give
$5,000 to the college for that. We're talking about raising it and
I'll give another, let's see, $10,000 and that will build it up
with what I give every year in May. All my business is done
through the attorney and First National Bank of Slippery Rock.
11106
SC:
Louise served under how many presidents?
CW:
Well, she actually worked for Dr. Entz when he was Dean of
Instruction. So she worked for him 16 years and then she worked
for Dr. Houk 10 years, and then she worked for Mr. Dodds as the
Director of Student Placement for 3 years. But, she worked when
Dr. Eisenberg was there, in those days as Dean; Dr. Eisenberg did
the hiring, you see.
The way she happened to get here was: She had planned to go
UniversitY
i"oo£
Miami when she graduated from high school in
1926. And then the hurricane came and her father lost nearly all
of his money. So she was already up here on a visit and he told
her not to come back
So she went 2 years to Iron City Business
55*
u S ^ 6 w o r k e d f o r engineer in the Fulton building
and, of course, the depression came.
SC:
That was the Fulton building in Pittsburgh?
not^bfcause of ^ 1 ' * ' t l U t W <' I '»
"ally
• IC
£*IriS?butit1trik« m :r t hL S ?B t 0 ^ t t S b U r g h q u i t e a b i t
The Bessemer bulldln
£
^
^ '
e r
-107-
SC:
So all in all Louise really was acquainted with many Slippery Rock
faculty and administration?
CW:
Yes, from Eisenberg through Dr. Weisenfluh. She had contact with
him. She didn't know Carter or Watrel or Aebersold. But anyway,
Aebersold knew she had been there and he wrote me a letter. He's a
very fine man.
_ .
Well, getting back to the way she got here, the Hilliard s
lived in Forestville, so she and her mother came up to visit the
Hilliards. Her mother said, "Why not call Mr. Galaspy? Maybe he
would have something at the college." Well, she did call. The
reason for that: Mrs. Galaspy was a teacher and Louise's father had
gotten her her first teaching job, so she felt that she owed
something to Louise. Her father was gone then. So they went down
to see Mr. Galaspy and he took Louise up to the office. Dr.
Eisenberg had just come in from the garden and said, "I can't even
shake hands with you" because in those days they had big gardens,
and he had been out working in the garden. He talked to her and he
said, "I'm not going to ask you to write any letter of application
because I've heard all about your experience, and your father being
an educator."
He said, "Just report to work the day after Labor
Day," so she did, but she told her mother that she would only stay
in this little country town one year. She stayed, of course,
years. Eisenberg was very strict and in those days the office
force came to work at 8:00 in the morning and they stayed until
5:00 at night, with an hour for lunch. Miss McKay was the
registrar and she was over-well, she wasn't over the office all
together, but she ruled the roost. Dr. Entz said
I m going to
tell you that when Maree.McKay snaps you off when I send you over ^
there for anything you just snap back and she'll never bother you.
So she did that and she never had any trouble with Maree. One time
all the office girls were doing some work for Maree. It came 5.00
and she didn't want them to go. A couple of them just got up and ^
"Left so she said, "Well, there's no use in us working any longer.
' Dr Eisenberg had a Miss Fitzgerald and he didn't allow any
smoking on the campus. Nobody, not even maintenance
someone had
reported his secretary as smoking, so he fired her and hired Elsie
Hamm. She used to sing in the choir at the Methodist ^urch
Great big heavy person. He hired her and she was a graduate of
MiLi University; but she couldn't type so she wrote all his
letters
in longhand. Dr. Hamm was a Psychology Professor and they
said that they thought he had had something on Dr Eisenberg and
that's why Eisenberg hired her. Anyway she stayed for about 4
years and he sometimes had important letters that had to be typed.
He used to get Louise to come in and do it, you know. Then Dr.
He used to e
first thing Dr. Miller did when he came was
«t6ridrof Elsie
So liulse did the work for Dr. Miller for about
f vear and a half
She did both jobs without any more money. Then
a year and a ha
h
ld teach and also be a secretary
H »°babvsitter for hinK He hired this Evelyn Miller and she
and a babysit
She come and she was his
she was qualified.
secretary
Anywayf she told Louise, "You know you could have made
secretary. Any* j
coming in her and you being here so long."
fe
r
e
C
sL s:ii: "No i nevrr'w antedSto be his secretary because I didn't
-108-
want to be a babysitter." When Dr. mner lert, Evelyn Lane
stayed on. Dr. Miller went up to Allegheny College. He was in
ad^nicrr EdVCatit"} u£ thera- Evelyn stayed on through McMaster's
EntZ Came' She stayed on 'til March of
^4?
Tb
i°n ^ T
UP
DrMiH r Sha resl^ed
Allegheny to be secretary to
Dr. Miller. She said to Louise, "I have recommended you to be the
secretary to Dr. Entz when I leave." Afterward, Louise went in and
u*de£st?nd that Evelyn had recommended me as your
Itrt'i-
s i.u.i r~ r"-!«
•''•,=K
— £•'ssrjaa
saszzs-srd £F£v~
iw"
w„
-109-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumni: Norma Watson Laughner and Carl Laughner
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Norma since you've been around this area for a long time, and I know
your family has had long association with the university could you
tell us the Watson involvement with Slippery Rock University.
NL:
For as long as I can remember someone in the family who's been in
Slippery Rock or talking about Slippery Rock or involved with
alumni affairs. My Aunt Mary Hines was a graduate of Slippery
Rock. My mother worked at Slippery Rock and had gone there for a
semester. My father graduated from Slippery Rock. My whole family
was in Slippery Rock except for one brother. Three of us are
graduates of Slippery Rock of the children. Just seems like I've
seen diplomas on the wall and things like that since I was a baby.
We always looked for a word to anything that was going on at the
school. That was the center of culture for the whole town and so
everything we did as children was kind of centered in Slippery
Rock.
DK:
As a high school student during those years in which you'd be making
a decision, did you ever consider escaping Slippery Rock.
NL:
As a matter of fact I signed up for the FBI during the war and had
references sent to Washington because it was a war time situation
and I'd wanted to go into nursing but my father vetoed that. So I
decided on the FBI, then he found out I was going to Washington and
that was a no, no. So he said just go to Slippery Rock for one
semester and then if you don't like it, do what you want. So I
went to Slippery Rock and I was hooked.
DK:
We can assume that you liked it then.
NL:
I liked it yes. We had a very small school in 1944 when I started I
think there were only 40 some freshmen, 40-45 freshmen at that
time. The whole school wasn't much over 100 because there were no
men. We only had 7 men in Slippery Rock in 1944 and they were all
on the basketball team.
DK:
As a graduate of the local secondary school, then a lab school I
believe, do you have any memories that you might share with us?
About the situation in which the town kids went to a laboratory
school and were exposed to many student teachers and most of the
teachers were in fact college staff. Do you have any memories of
that area you might share?
NL*
Yes. I know we looked forward to every semester with new student
teachers. It was kind of a challenge to get to know and understand
their way of thinking and doing things. In fact, it was really
good for all of us as far as getting along with people was
concerned. Because you had to get along with a new set of people
-110-
every semester and that part was good. We also had a lot of
opportunity at that time because we were connected with the college
as an elementary school. I can remember in sixth grade we did the
Nutcracker Suite in the chapel and I was a Windfairy and we had the
orchestra from the college playing for us. All of the instructors
were dance instructors from the school and we had a lot of
opportunities in music, drama, and art. My brother was in a play
done by the school and the Maypole festivities were all elementary
children from the school. We would go over on campus and dance
around maypoles, we just had a marvelous time. That way the
connection was so good, the feeling was so good. There was just no
way you could have anything almost without being connected to the
college.
DK:
I too have fond memories of lab school situation fond memories of
excellent student teachers, yourself included.
NL:
Oh yes.
DK:
I have heard this criticism and see if we can get your reaction.
That the lab school student, because of the great variety of
student teachers they were exposed to, they also became very
skilled at testing the quality of student teachers and were
sometimes difficult to handle because we did become such experts at
baiting student teachers. Do you have any reaction to that
viewpoint?
NL:
We did that. I remember in the library when Lola Buzash, Lola
McMullen another towny was our student teacher. We were making
some funny little noises and it would spread all over the library
and she d go back to one place and we'd start her on another. She
got quite irritable about the whole thing, but we knew who we could
tease and how far we could go. We just got to know those things.
HZ Lt S ?° H e * P * r i € ? c e t h ° u S h - I would say as a whole there were
very few student teachers that were upset. I think reallv badlv
upsetfun.
by such things, by
by kids.
kids. It
It was
was more
more in
7 the ttownies,
o w n l e s . by
good
in just
DK:
deafiuh'problL!1
NL
DK
*
E°0d
exP«ieI>«
then, to learn how to
Right they were gonna have more
They were going to encounter more in much worse situations.
NL:
That's right.
DK
You were also involved with vnur
great influx of WW II GI's descendedaduate career when that
already told us about the years thereT" *1 Ca ™ PUS ' Y ° U ' V e
7
maleS °n canlPus
Any description of the reaction when thl^h
after WW II?
be boys came marching home
NL:
We had a kind of a orientation to that
.u
t when the air corps fellas
-111-
were up here. I think I was a junior in high school and we had
250-500 young men swarming around the school and marching around
the streets at 6:30 in the morning. It kind of got us ready for
the big day when the boys came marching home. But, yeah, I
remember we were used to our 7 men which turned into 22 or so the
next year and all of the sudden we had 200 men coming to Slippery
Rock. It was just wild and these fellas were out for the grades.
They knew what they wanted. They wanted to get finished, they
wanted to make a mark for themselves while they were in school, and
they were real competition for us. We made straight As before
that. When they came home you sort of slipped to Bs and Cs because
they were taking the top grades out of every class. They really
meant business and the girls learned to adjust and also got a lot
of husbands during that period.
DK:
That was my next question. How long did it take you to sift through
the group to decide where to concentrate your interests and efforts
on these new arrivals?
NL:
Well let's see, Carl came to school in 1946 and I got him in 1947
and we were married in 1948. It was several month's there after he
was in a class with me, a drama class then we got in another class
together. In speech problems and by the time we got in the third
class, why you know things were moving right along and that next
summer we got married.
DK:
Let's shift to Mr. Laughner now.
CL:
Pittsburgh.
DK:
You had spent how long in the military?
CL:
Three and a half years.
DK:
Army?
CL:
Air Force.
DK:
Air Force and where all were you stationed?
CL:
Oh, all over the U.S. pretty nearly. I went to Miami for basics.
Then I went to California and spent most of my time in California
until I went to Tinian with the Marianas group. It was a very
undistinguished career. It was too late to do anything in Marianas
except get ready to come home. I like to think that when I was in
California the reason I didn't get shipped out until the regulation
changed was that we ran things very nicely despite the regulations.
Then they decided they couldn't do what they had been doing all
along, that the oldest man in gray had to go and when that order
came out I immediately shook hands with my buddy and I was right.
About a week later I went. I was the oldest sergeant in gray but I
had worked on P-38s and they were as different as day and night.
The new boys coming out had no idea what to do with the old ones
and so they kept us around and didn't ship us out the way we
-112-
Your home town was where, Carl?
- f l ,ii v
should've been shipped out. truthfully.
But mostly I was in
California.
^ ^ V I nav did you return home?
About how long after VJ Day en y
r 1QU
I had enough points to come home.
I came home in February of 1946.
You came home on points.
™rld
Well much of the U.S. and part of the
Well after seeing theJf°ri •
metropolitan area of Pittsburgh,
world, and having grown p
to select Slippery Rock?
I'd be interested in knowing now y
Well one of your teachers^
- in
i ob° at"that 0 time
Td
and we talked him into going to school and
he went to Slippery Rock and I helped him move here.
May I interrupt?
That means you and Bob Sinclaire had been friends
in Pittsburgh?
Yes I knew him before that. Yeah, so when I came home - -he had
served in the infantry--and when I came home he asked me what I was
going to do. I said if I'm ever going to do it I might as well go
?o school. My last parent had died during the war so I moved here
lock, stock and barrel. We had 7 pieces of hand luggage all of
which belonged to me on the old Harmony Bus, and he claimed 3 of
them and I claimed 4 of them.
They let us out at the long
and moved here with everything I owned, and just stayed 2 1/2 year
• - it m p n /1
You completed 4 in 2 1/2 years?
Yes.
That must be some sort of record.
No, I think there were quite a few who did that. You had to carry
22 hours one semester which if you remember Miss McKay?
That was my next question. How in heavens name did Miss McKay
permit that kind of record?
Well, she made a bad mistake. I said to her I wanted to take 22
hours and she said absolutely not and I said to her Miss McKay to
whom do I speak next and she said Dr. Duncan. She could've bitten
her tongue off immediately because Dr. Duncan would let you do
anything. Now I don't mean Duncan the historian. I mean Duncan..Dr. Leonard Duncan?
That s right and I went in and he sat a little bit and he thought
we could try that. I didn't get along with Miss McKay for about a
month until I got back in her good graces again. As you can
imagine you knew that lady. I finally had to take two courses in
-113-
health and physical education to have, to piece out my credits.
There was a woman here in our major field who didn't draw students
and I signed up I think. There was only one other person signed
up. The teacher will remain nameless. She's been dead a long
time. Miss Burns was one of the transients and nobody else would
sign up so I said well I'll take something. So I went oyer and
took a health education, course in community health I think it was
called and I took two. I don't remember what the other one was. I
needed 6 hours that summer and I got them by going over to the
health education class.
DK:
That sort of sounds like my experience with Miss McKay. Being a
Korean Vet not a WW II Vet I had many friends in other colleges who
were being excused from physical education because of military
duty. I kept delaying my physical education courses until the
beginning of my senior year. At which time she called me into her
office and told me there would be no way I'd graduate from Slippery
Rock State College with out my 3 required physical education
courses. The tone of her voice and glint of her eyes, I knew she
meant it. So I spent my last semester taking 3 physical education
courses.
CL:
I forget how much we were exempted from but we had to take them
too. In fact I had to run around the field once at the end of the
day. I think 3 times around Thompson field because I said son-ofa-bitch on the side to somebody. I didn't say it to anyone in
particular. I was talking to one of my friends. I think Vern
Swagger. I said that son of a bitch of a Smile. He said you run 3
times around the track.
DK:
That was my next question, you answered it.
compelled you to this additional duty.
CL:
Yes.
DK-
Could either of you in some order name your professors who
influenced you to the greatest extent, during your stay at Slippery
Rock?
CL:
I'm sure we will both agree on Miss Burns.
that and I'll say some you didn't have.
NL:
And Dr. Spotts too was very influential in me staying in English
because I had a couple of physical education people telling me I
should be in physical education. I wasn't particularly interested
but Jan Burns was probably our closest friend and teacher because
of our interest in speech and English and she was an excellent
friend. I guess because she gave us her apartment when we got
married. We lived in her apartment for that last semester and we
kept in touch with her until the time she died last year. She just
was a very good person to talk with to just sit down and talk
things over with when you were having difficulties, or just someone
to talk with. You could go into her apartment anytime and be
assured of a listener. She was a wonderful person.
-114-
Was it Smiley who
Then why don't you say
I have a feeling she was just like family.
She really was.
She was brilliant too.
And she had a family.
She didn't parade but man how well rounded she was.
Very good.
T M 1 e W * t-hiq n o t t o p a t m y o w n b a c k , b u t w h e n I w a s a n
i
aAd was
was^having
having a conversation
with her, and I'm,not
undergraduate
and
.
^
.
ng uke
but
she
said
of
«Tinmv kids "
which was a term she often used, "of all my kids the
ones I think I will have the least to worry_about. that I feel most
sh® referred to me.
confident about, are the Laughners and Y°uI considered that a real compliment and I know she meant it for you
folks.
Yes that would be. Well she had a nice family. We had a really
great time together in the drama dept. We had a nice group that
worked together and played together.
We actually have a nice picture where everybody looks good. You'd
think we're in a very high class place all dressed properly and
that was Alpha Psi Omega, right?
Yes.
And we still have that picture.
Did you have a feeling that she thought you had potential but maybe
needed a little additional attention? A push and actually develop
in a way?
Oh, sure she did.
And she was very knowledgeable about speech correction which nobody
knows about in our field today you know. She told me at the end of
my career here that we used to tape when we came in. I don't know
if you still do that but, we used to do a tape or record and then
they evaluated it. They never told you anything about it except
that they felt that they learned something from it . And she said
"I never had a tape like yours before." She said, "there were some
things you did beautifully other things that were terrible and your
pronunciation would be Pennsylvania Dutch" as it would like me to
be because I was reared in a Dutch town, "and North side and then
* ,gs ** wfs as if you taught yourself," she said. "But at
least you ve straightened out at least reasonably." She was a very
ilike that- When we said Doc Spotts we
neglected him. I don t know if you know it or not but his grammar
-115-
was the second best seller in the U.S. which coming from here isn't
easy to do. Yet, he even got it published, and I think you
probably know how that was done. But Doc never entertained you.
He wasn't an entertainer. And that brought me to one I don't think
Norma did have. That's Joe Frazier and I told Joe this, I said to
him that, "I learned more from him in three hours of government
than I did from, "then the head of the department, "the head of the
department in six hours of history." I learned more history from
Joe in three hours of government than I did from the head of the
department in six hours of history. He didn't entertain you
either. That's how you made the transition from one to the other.
NL:
I remember George Miller too because we had have been rarely open to
art as such. Lillian Griffin was good but she was a traditionalist
and kind of austere. But George was a warm kind of outgoing
fellow. He made you learn your poetry along with learning the art
and I did learn an awful lot of art in a short time from George
Miller.
CL:
And there's a nice contrast here because I didn't have George. I
had Martha Gault. Martha had brought the new in and we did less
with the classics and more with a new text, which tried to develop
our taste in general rather than recognition of the classics.
Which incidentally doesn't fit in with what is done on the National
Teachers Exam. You better recognize a few of those famous classics
if you want to score anything in the art. Because people that
didn't know them and they couldn't pass the exam until we said,
"hey, take this and look at 100 of these and then maybe you can do
it." But at least learn that area. I learned some advertising
terms and so on which I used when I first retired working in
another completely separate industry where I was doing some
printing work and I had done so as alumni director. Things I
learned from Martha I applied and made a buck that way. Which is
kind of nice to know even when you're 62 years old, I was then.
It's nice to know you can apply something you learned in college.
It isn't always that you can do that as you all know a good bit of
it just drops down the drain.
DK:
It sounds as though your experience is a dovetail of mine. Had
there been any option there would have been some courses I would
not have taken, music appreciation, art appreciation. I would have
avoided them. However, in all those instances I took away a great
deal that I never expected to take away and that I have utilized
and referred to often in my life.
NL:
I've got to mention too, I think of here, more as an elementary
school teacher but she was really a college teacher and that was
Gladys Arnold. She probably had the most effect on my entire life
more effect than any other teacher I knew, and that was probably
because she was with me longer. But because I was so interested in
music and she encouraged me from the time I was a little kid. You
know she told me if I worked I could do this and thus and so it
worked out. I'm still very interested in music, and still using my
music at the age of 62, which you can't do with a baton and you
-116-
CL:
,--k nfhpr skills but she made me see that
can't do lots of times w
ur voice so for a ion
with practice and industry you can u
y
time.
» ^a-i,prq that we shouldn't miss because I don't
And one of Norma s teacher
had h(jr as a criti
know how much if you ve heard"^^.
j ^ her fls
a coUeague
teacher when s e «aa
Lois
Harner
I
don't know
f w
that was
m the college and Dean or wo
^ l>n t never^aid a^orc^to anybody, hut a guy who would be flunking
English and I remember there was a time, I don t know if it was
when you were here if you flunked English three times you were out
of the school. You had to make a »C» in three times and many times
she would quietly tutor somebody and get him through when nobody in
the English Department, and I'm kicking myself in a way because I
was originally in both departments. That's how I got here. She
would coach them on the side and get them through, save them, and
she did that a good many times. Most people didn't even know she
did that when she was Dean of Women.
DK:
She was a remarkable women I had her from ninth grade onward.
NL:
Yes. She came after Matilda Bailey left.
Bailey?
DK:
I did not know Matilda Bailey.
NL:
She was fantastic but we only had her for two years.
stayed for two years.
CL
You've been told that she came back as a dollar a year a person?
DK
Yes.
CL
Matilda Bailey.
DK
Yes.
CL
And frequently flew twice to New York and back in the course of a
week. Which indicated she wasn't living on that buck or what was
drew it at that time which I don't think
she did"7'
NL:
She only
FnMcl a cauti°n- This boy Howard Wilson fell asleep in our
CVeryone file °"t very quietly and let
him sleep
Th^neYf16
and there he was sleeping and
finally he wnko
• ° u?S came
I trust vou had a !
Y* diffetent class altogether an5 she saic
™
CL:
Do you remember Matilda
•» ~u. ,.u..«... i.
You fell asleep?
-117-
DK:
No, I had a student fall asleep and as the class filed out I said
shh, and when the next class period came in I said shh. Halfway
through the next class period he awakened himself and looked right
and left and turned all around and didn't recognize anyone.
NL:
That's a terrible feeling.
CL:
I fell asleep after the Worlds Fair in Chicago. It was in 1933 and
1934 and I had gone in 1934. I'd been up for three nights. I
hadn't been in bed. The first day of school was after I came back
and if you were done at 3:05 you had to be out of school. If you
were there at 3:15 you stayed. I just had a new job and I fell
asleep at the end of this class. A teacher I didn't know, who
didn't know me and I'm still sleeping at 3:15. The bell rang and I
realized what time it was and I said to her, "I've been at the
Worlds Fair I'll explain this to you tomorrow. I have to go to
work I have a different job." And I left. I don't even know how
articulate I was. I had to be in town, which was a mile and
something, in 15 minutes to go to my new job. That was some
incredible experience. You awaken people and I fell asleep.
NL:
Warren Strain, you remember Dr. Strain, he let my brother Tom sleep
one day and when he woke up his suspenders broke and he jumped up
and Warren Strain was telling everybody that story for the next ten
years. He'd tell about Tom waking up and breaking his suspenders
and flying up through the air.
DK:
Well we have you both graduated now in 1948 and 1949 and we know you
didn't come back from Slippery Rock for a few years. What did each
of you do in the interim?
NL:
Well I graduated in January. There were 13 of us that skipped that
last semester we just speed up a little bit and graduated in
January. But I was the only one that got a job and I give all the
credit to Dr. Weisenfluh. He was looking out for me very well and
they needed an English instructor down at Coraopolis High School.
They had interviewed 42 and I was 43 and they hired me and I don't
know why yet. It was a cold winter day when we went down there I
came back with a job and I stayed down there for 4 1/2 years. Of
course we had our first child so I was doing substitution work down
at Hampton Township High School and Carl got a chance to move back
to Slippery Rock. So we moved back up to Slippery Rock in 1955 and
he was teaching in the English department, I guess.
CL:
Two.
NL:
Speech and English.
CL:
They needed someone in both departments and both Mrs. Burns and
Dr. Spotts knew me and agreed I could be half-time in their
Departments. That's what they needed, they didn't need anybody,
there was still only about 1000 students in '55 roughly, and that's
how that was. It was strange I had a new masters degree in English
-118-
, „ree in speech but it was all
I didn't really have a masters
right anyhow.
)K:
SL:
^re did you
i assume you taught during that lapse too,
«.%. Mil district like Harlem in
I taught in Herron Hill. T^/pittsburgh and it was a very
New York. That's what it is in
^get al
If you
S3SHSSS £•*»Iltht""
NL:
CL:
97% black.
4 f9nh when I left it was 90% black.
Yes almost 100% black^ graduated from here, older than I,
Yet, I can name two tea^f*^edgbecause they liked it. I worked
and had chance to move but stay
became activltles director,
four maybe four years or five,
because we had 1150 students,
which was the only junior high •^t^a^tivities director. You
something like that, ^at
^
think of inciuding
did everything and anything e
?
i did that
hat
u had.
keeping the books forJ*e ®
Shapiro took my job when I was
Dr
before I came here. The trustee Dr. ^nap
iviti;s director, no
called back in the Korean War.
later on she
-b?n -2TI-
Wp' I don't know where else but we're still good friends. It's
, . i' r interesting that we taught in the same school. I was going
to say you'd think about a school like that about everybody being
under-privileged. But one of my favorite stories is that I had a
class where nobody in that class except for 2 students, bhere was
thirty something, everybody had an IQ of 135 or above. Two ki
were over achievers. They only had about 125. One of whom was
Josephine Nelson who's father was in prison for being treasurer ol
the communist party, at that time. I had already had Albert
Albertson who's father was president of the communist party.
Remember the ten they prosecuted about that time? That would be
about 1947, 1948 somewhere 1949 somewhere in there. They sent ten
of them, jailed them actually and I had Albertson as a student
teacher and then got Josephine. Josephine was a good student. She
couldn't read and her writing was terrible but we got that
straightened out and she was in that class. She was one of the
ones that had a good IQ. It was an interesting experience. I
never had a class that good when I came to the college if you want
to know the truth. Because they, other than being immature, they
were in 8th grade; I had them in 8th and 9th grade. Two subjects,
homeroom, English and Social Studies. So you could do anything you
wanted so the one year that I had them we did the standard
literature. We did whatever grammar necessary with them. It
wasn't very much. We did the school newspaper and we did three
citizen education projects which was a big thing Columbia did all
over the U.S. all in one hour class. Now a full hour. I had them
for lunch hour therefore I got ten minutes more out of them but we
did all of that in one hour with
"
*
-119-
DK:
How did you hear of or how was the contact made that there was an
opening in Slippery Rock?
CL:
I guess Dr. Spott's called me and said maybe if I applied I could.
I had a little trouble with Dr. Hauk. I came here and I told
Pittsburgh that having an unusual job that I wouldn't quit after
July 15, June 15. No it had to be July because we taught until the
22nd and I came and I still had nothing to say. I was working
here, Dr. Hauk said "you'll have the job." Well I knew enough
about the politics of this kind of thing that maybe the state would
change their minds and I said no that I had promised and this was
the last day and if I didn't have it I was going to stay where I
was. He wasn't happy but he called Harrisburg and verified the
appointment and I stayed here rather than there.
DK:
How long were you in classes here before you became involved in
alumni affairs?
CL:
Not until 1970. So 1955-1970, 17 years.
DK:
I think you were the first director of alumni affairs, is that
correct?
CL:
No. Cliff Underwood was hired with that job that was his training
and background he came from the same place Dr. Hauk had been. San
Jose State.
NL:
In California.
CL:
We were very happy he was a very capable person but he didn't
handle money as well as he should have. When he left we had $400.
It appeared that we had $4000 but we owed all but $400 from there
it was you know I had....
DK:
Is this a topic we ought not to pursue too far?
CL:
No it's alright. The first time I held a homecoming. We ate in
the cafeteria because there was no money to hold anything with and
I wasn't spending any money until we saw how it was going and then
it improved substantially. When I left we had--I don't knowbetween $100,000 and $130,000 with close to $100,000 for N. Kerr
Thompson and maybe $30,000 more. Oh no, 27 for, you know whatever
the rest was that's not important but we weren't poverty stricken
anymore we had rather nice things.
DK:
How many years did you work in that office, Carl?
CL:
1970 until, oh boy, I don't know 1978 until I was 62 you want to
know one extra semester I stayed.
NL:
Yes
CL:
Because they asked me to.
-120-
DK:
I've heard it said that -chers « ~
scZls 3 5 ^^'s'your experience?
CL:
That's definitely true.
What'a your reaction?
The athletes are willing to contribute
sr^'s. ttii 22 :s .i..?.ai«» .«> *.<•.
*uS
truly undefeated not just the conference they were undefeated
throughout. A few of the basketball players and don't know really
of anybody else as strong as they were. It was primarily for the
for the football men that started that other teachers had the
feeling that its a state school and we know many of these by name
but won't name them. They say I, not doing that, I don't need
anything from them. Well that's not true either. Although we may
not do as good a job placement ten years later as some other
universities might. For instance I heard the other day that
Westminster took care of a graduate who's been out six years a
replacement to even recounseling. I don't, maybe we don't do that
quite as well and I don't know anymore but they felt it's state
supported and that's all it is but they don't realize that
currently I'm sure you could name the percentages; this much from
state this much from tuition and want anything other better have
someone dishing it in. In fact I'm just going to serve on the
foundation. I just was accepted on the foundation.
NL:
There were a good many years there too where you had to get your
masters some place else and your loyalties became divided. Like
we'd go to Pittsburgh, we went to Pitt together, he went to Penn
State and you get to lose that close bond. You know with your
original certificate and the school that gave it to you. I think
that had maybe something to do with it. Then teachers weren't paid
very much that's another thing. You ask them for 5 dollars and
they want to know what good this is gonna do me. You ask them for
10 or 20 or a life membership and they just drag their feet about
that.
DK:
That s sort of the direction I was going. Now that we're more of a
multipurpose institution and creating business people and all sorts
of professions is that maybe part of the reason for some of the
improving situations? I'm assuming that the situation is
improving, I'm not positive.
CL:
NL:
a whole lot really.
The foundation does the best they can but
they have not raised a great deal of money. The money i s s t i l l
t h e a l u m n i association and the
department. I pretty nearly know that.
:vr?haf^hWlth the nUmber
0f
««*«... ^
CL:
e
were 3 when W I had"^ 1 ThereTasTperiod
i^th
^ when
h 3 *" 6 we
"""h"
a period in
there
had a"
-121-
couple of alumni directors who only stayed a little bit and there
were a many lot because I mailed to 22,000. Sally's mailing to
23,000 but she started around 18 and picked up the rest again. So
really we're still only contacting about the same number of people
I was contacting.
DK:
This is probably an unfair question, but I wonder what we can do in
creating an atmosphere here to engender loyalty to the degree that
they're willing to reach in their pockets?
CL:
I don't really know. I think and thing that I see is in this
institution the teachers themselves are not sufficiently supportive
to stimulate the kids. Remember how you were an iconoclast when
you first started to teach? I'm sure you must have been. You
know, you're gonna smash all the idols--we seem to have quite a few
who continue to smash them. You know not anything constructive
happens after that and I don't care if you quote me to anybody,
that happens. In fact, I have been told, now I haven't served on
foundation yet, but I have been told that very little comes from
the faculty. Yet in some institutions the faculty contributes
substantially.
NL:
I notice too, in the people that come back on alumni day, their the
ones who have deep connections with Slippery Rock. They've made
certain sentimental attachment to something here, and there doesn't
seem to be as much of that going on as there was. I mean we don't
have the nature trail and the green and white.
DK:
Are we increasingly afraid of sentiment or embarrassed by sentiment.
NL:
I think the whole world is. I think that's the way things are going
today. No emotional attachments whatsoever, but there are always
those people who look for that. If they don't find it they give it
up.
CL:
I just want to throw something in here, I'm digressing now but...
DK:
That's fine go ahead.
CL:
When we talked about this sort of thing we had that old business
where we were served in the dining room. In fact when I went here
we were served twice a day breakfast was the only one we weren't
served. Then they cut out the lunch, but we were still served
dinner family style. Assuming that most of us were first
generation to go to college. Which was true and still is
frequently. I think we learned something that way we also knew
that we could kick it around and make fun of it a little bit.
Still that it was good for a good many of us that's one of the
things I wanted to say. There maybe I'll come back to when we
talk about it a little more.
DK:
Well I'm nearly to the point to say or just to open it up and stop
being the guide with the directions you want here and allowing
either of you the free time and space here to make any observations
-122-
summaries or otherwise, about your experiences with Slippery Rock.
Your memories, on other words the interviewer seems to be running
low.
Well as speaking as a towny and watching the school grow all these
years I don't know that it's that much better because it's that
much bigger. It was always a good school. It's never been to the
point where it could have been called a bad school. They always
had good teachers even when they only had 100 students. They had
good teachers where there was only maybe 20 of them here. They
started out that way and they had a quality that was maintained
over the years. I feel, and I think that's still being done, I
think we still have very fine instructors and...
I wouldn't dare say this if I wasn't on the staff myself but I often
times compare myself and some of my colleagues to those persons
that I remember from my undergraduate days, and feel we fall a bit
short in several areas.
Discipline maybe, some of them maybe in discipline, because as I
remember there was a lot of work going on in the library not just
by the students but by the professors too. You felt that in the
classes, you knew you had the feeling that here was a lot to be
learned.
That was one of the things I was going to get to. I'm going to
name some women, Mrs. Dubard who should not be nameless by any
means, and she used to take I would think three classes of freshmen
who were doing exhaustive research papers. Alright, now she not
only collected paper and your outline, she collected your note
cards arranged in some form of organization. Then she'd give them
r* y°U ?nd
"an alternate organization." Now you do this
>e
?
W
£
V ?
u
several hundred note cards. I'm not saying I
Jel!hprr>S'
I vad 3 fuU Pack' Wel1 1 had almost 2 packs. I
remember it was a debate topic and she gave me a very fine
with"what ^af^h^
^ iC because 1 "as
beautlful things like that.
women had L snend
Now that
tile mavbe ?7 00 b
5 " day ln addicion to teaching at that
done. Well she haHUrS f" y°U say how i" the hell could you get
us, we were her fam*?0 a?1 ^ and Put
® hours in which came to
The guy in Termp^\ 1* 6ffeCt did y°u knov who *he taught?
W 3t Wa? bis name?
one time
She had
The well known author at
heart attack and even wrote
^^"h° h"d
3
Oh, Jesse Stuart.
Jesse Stuart.
I didn't know that.
He's one of
ffly
favorite authors.
because he wa^nftura^talenrvo^kn °h ^ thou8ht he was Sreat
her tutelage. So that'c
a ^ u,know a^d boss him somewhat under
S klnd of interesting, but that was —
one
-123-
the things I was going to add to the dining room bit. The other
thing is, I concur with you that it was a good thing that I had to
take a lot of subjects. I'm still lousy in geography but because I
had two courses that made me employable in the Pittsburgh public
schools. When you teach social studies there the geography and
history are combined and they'd pass the Pitt grads up just boom
boom. In my school and many others I knew and here somebody from
the state teachers college because you came with maybe 30 whatever
hours but also had six hours in geography. There was something to
be said for that not only because it made you employable but,
because you needed some of those things I did. I'm still ignorant
in geography and I've been a lot of places but I hardly can locate
them
That was sort of a finale for me. I didn't want to miss
Mrs. Dubard because she was a perfect example of a ....
DK.
I had her as a high school student.
CL:
Did you?
NL:
Oh, did you?
DK:
Yes.
CL:
And she liked men there was no doubt she was friendlier to men than
women.
DK:
I was perhaps not perceptive enough to notice that. I was pretty
young at the time. Probably 9th or 10th grade, I'm not sure.
CL:
But the work that women did. The other thing is you remember that
when we came here to teacher college every teacher had 5 years in
the public schools somewhere or another. There were a few cheats
then but not very many. They usually had a couple of summers and
winters and maybe a doctorate to boot and then it began to go where
that wasn't necessary and rightly so. You can't find people with a
doctorate in physics who have taught five years in a public school.
That doesn't work.
NL:
That's how I got my opportunity to substitute because I'd already
taught in public schools and I went into the English Speech Dept.
CL:
We didn't mention that she taught here for almost how many years?
NL:
About 9-9 1/2 years. 1958-1967.
CL:
Part-time and full time and so on.
NL:
I taught part time in the speech department. Practically all of my
experience was with freshmen. One freshmen class after another. I
finally got a class teaching speech because one of the women took
sabbatical and I had to teach which was a nice experience.
CL:
Well, she filled in for the department chairman in one of the drama
classes when she was injured.
-124-
NL:
vin high school too.
Well, I had taught dr«a £ Wg
that was being done in Coraopoii
I had all the drama
CL:
•
that when she went to Coraopolis the man
What I was saying
She said the windows I said
driven out.
that was ahead of h« was ^
^^ ehlrtieB probably 6
the door. He was
drove hlm out anyhow and she
something in height, Dig g y
well,
was 21 and a new graduate. She did very wen.
NL:
T
^
^
He had a class of football
Uhv he was driven out, too.
s all tl except one beautiful girl named Deloris. I'll tell
you that was a class.
CL:
Anyhow she did so well they asked her if there was anything she'd
like to do
She said she'd like to take a speech class and they
allowed her to have a speech class for the seniors^ The good
seniors. In other words the pick class and thereafter you taught
at least one.
NL:
Every semester I had one speech class.
CL:
That's kind of interesting that she had done that she had more
experience than I did when I came here.
NL:
They had speech there for a little over 12 years, because the little
old lady who had taught it retired.
DK:
That would be Norma's second opportunity at experimental speech
class. Since I was in her first it was real interesting. Years
later I had never been able to figure out why I was selected for
that group because it was such a select group. When I was in
college and I got to know the supervisor of the class a little
better I said, "Miss B. how is it that I got into that select
group?" She said "Well there were two types of people in that
group. People that we didn't feel needed anymore English and
people that we felt further instruction in English wasn't going to
do any good anyway, they might benefit from speech." Then she just
fell silent.
NL:
That sounds like her.
DK:
Am I to draw my own conclusions as to which eroup I fell into and
she said "you may."
CL:
lit
there graduate of Slippery Rock who
his (Wr°
j
students to Penn State and he g
e t^ght hls entlre career at another college ve
satisf^tntn
T
SOme graduate work with some of his stude
and thev thr> Kt- I
But °ne °f his instructors said
me one time "UH t'
d
yOU
do with a fella Uke that? "
has great talent A a
°
but not badly^ but he cannot ^eU.^'^
^
teacher in
clrSt sch°larship
-125-
DK:
I'm well aware of who that is. I had him in speech class and
Problems of Democracy. You can imagine Joe Frazier's attention to
detail and how Mr. Sinclair got along in trying to write on the
chalkboard in problems.
NL:
And he couldn't say aluminum.
CL:
I met one of his graduate students and he taught elective courses
until such time as they had appreciation of theater. You know
about where we began to have another appreciation here and he said
to these students who must have been seniors at least, he said,
"fellas what the hell am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to have
classes in this." You know evidently he'd go in and they would
take the N.Y. Times theater section and begin from there and
compare it to the classics and this, that and the other. Which
he'd do very well so his students laid out the course the way it
was supposed to be taught, so he could teach it. I thought that
was interesting. They weren't demeaning him by any means. They
thought he was great. He just didn't care about organizing
something like that.
NL:
He was the best man at our wedding.
DK:
I guess creative would be a good description.
NL:
Yes.
DK:
Very creative person.
CL:
Miss Burns helped him right through his Master's.
did. No doubt about it. Strange fella.
DK:
Well...
CL:
I don't know anything else that has to be said.
DK*
There's probably a lot more to be said that could be said. It s
been a pleasure you've been very helpful and cooperative. I'm sure
this will be a fine addition to our oral history. Thank you both
very much.
-126-
I'm sure she
SIlp,„,
"°""
Alumnus: Donald Kelly
Interviewer: Joseph Riggs
, « a , y . « , - i l , — b . « k . 1 0 , t b l . community?
J R
Forestville-Harrisville area.
JR:
Do you recall the name?
DK
His name was James Shields. Not long after my maternal
grandfather's family, named Johnson, moved into the area from
eastern Pennsylvania. So on my mother's side a vepr lengthy period
of time; on my father's side, however, they are all Hoosiers and
not native Pennsylvanians.
JR:
So, from 1797 until now your family has been in the area?
DK:
Yes. They have been in the area permanently.
variety of farmers, shopkeepers, blacksmiths.
JR:
Any horse thieves?
DK:
We have had problems in some branches of the family with alcoholism
but I don't know of any horse thieves.
JR:
So then you grew up here as a youngster?
DK:
Yes. In my earliest years we moved around a lot. My father was
employed by Western Electric and he was transferred often. I have
lived on the fringes of Slippery Rock most of my life. I have
never lived in the borough. I lived in Fores tville from the time I
was one until I was five. I lived in New Castle from five until I
was eight. Then we moved to Worth Township, which is just west of
Slippery Rock, where I went to one room country schools until I
entered the labratory school of Slippery Rock College. During my
senior year of high school my parents moved back to Forestville.
So, most of my life I have been in the Slippery Rock Area.
JR:
The Lab school back then was for what ages?
DK:
The Lab school was for the borough students from K-12; however,
there were outlying townships such as Worth Township where I lived
that sent students there only after ninth grade. We had an eighth
grade test system at the time and all of the township students, and
,•P^yivan'a wide, not a local thing, and you took an
erSe which I
° f 6 i g h t g r a d e t 0 q u a l -ify you to enter ninth
C ? n a i d e r e d h i gh school at the time.
I como?^
And so in 1944
completed the eighth grade at Wolf Creek Public School which is
-127-
They have been a
on Route 108 which is west of Slippery Rock and then in the autumn
of 1944 came to Slippery Rock in the labratory school.
JR:
So in those early years up until the time you were 14 you were in
and out of Slippery Rock?
DK:
Oh yes this is where the shopping was done. This is where you
visited physicians, dentists, and there was a theatre, and it was
the closest theatre, known as the Roxy, so this is where you came
to movies, etc.
JR:
The Roxy has only been gone 12 years?
DK:
Not much more than that. I can't pin down the year when it burned
but it was, it opened about 1939 and functioned until the early
1970's.
JR:
Father Ragni used to hold Mass there?
DK:
I believe so.
JR:
The present high school was not built when you came here?
here on the campus?
DK:
That's right. What is now known as Maree McKay Education Building
was the elementary school and the high school, K-12. However, all
of the staff at the lab school were employees of Slippery Rock
State Teachers College at that time. They were all at least
assistant professors on the staff here. Some of them taught only
lab school classes but in some cases regular professors even as
high as full professors came over to the lab school to refresh
themselves at the elementary and secondary level. And so from
ninth grade on I was taught by college professors and I think it
had a lot to do to inspire me; I had excellent teaching in almost
all instances.
JR:
That's kind of a lost art for ranking faculty to teach in a
secondary school situation.
DK:
Yes, there was a lot lost. I realize we can't go back. The school
is currently simply too large. There are too many student
teachers. It was getting that way even before the labratory school
was terminated and you couldn't get a student teaching experience
worth very much with eight or ten student teachers in a given room.
That just isn't very practical--so it had to go. But when it
worked, I think it worked well. It was good for the students. The
student teachers had a full experience. I did my student teaching
later at the lab school and you did everything. You sponsored an
extra-circular activity, you keep state books on attendance, you
went out to teach. After you had a student teaching experience at
the lab school you were ready to step into any situation. You had
been well prepared for the rigors of teaching.
JR:
Fairly intense supervision?
I had forgotten about that.
-128-
It was
DK:
JR:
DK:
Yes, very intense. And some of the names that are well-known on
campus now by buildings and so forth. My ninth grade English
teacher was Lois Harner for whom Hamer Hall is named. I had Carl
Spotts for whom, of course, the building in which we are now
sitting is named. I had many others who did not get buildings
named for them. Keller Shelar, Winnie May Dubard, Wilda Brubake
and of course two that followed me throughout my educational car1"
and later became my colleagues, very near and dear in my heart ***
Charles Halt and Joseph Frazier. I had them from ninth grade until
twelfth and then had the good fortune of coming back and working
with them as colleagues years later.
°
program?
°f^sch°o1'
K:
R:
•C:
a
full athletic
No.
Those were war years and basketball was one of the only two
sports
my senior year I think
football, no baseball
R:
did they have
Thev
7
virtually every year until
" excePtionally good. But no
What was the university called thon?
were state teachers college?
t*.
W*S
PosC-normal school.
Yes, we were state teachers college then.
So there were how many college students
around then?
then?
hLuaents around
Beincr nnltT
1 r ic
Being
onlv 1/.
14 IS
but I judge around 700ytor8001woild1hn'C K°nitor that real closely
th® waF years at one point and a™?
my guess and during
r™
not state this
authoritatively I believe at one
?
"v
in this institution
hand
all of!L
f*
°nly 9 males
handicap or something that rro
whom had some sort of a
fact, to add a Htuf spLe^avbf^ them from beinS Rafted. In
totallY "^nown for
bovs°d " fenlales <>f the college to
boys during those lean years S
occasionally date high school
TV> A v A
There Was SOmeth1^
From about 1944-45
Zr!T"
Were
-bout the Afrika Corp?
Tm „ -
waited he^Tsi^1
War's
-d, air corp
and using colleg^f °f
^Teachers •
ties
tha
would bring work c5
*
'
Y would bw*
I WGre housed her'
Reynolds which
Vv
°m the Prisoner of g'
government
War camP at Camp
particular in «.
Transfer Pa
a
from Ro™el'aSA?rikaacm°St alf °f'th^m"^11*'
V"'
rpwork and anv
«
They would
incarcerated there wert
and any moving 0f beds and so folvT down he" a"d do lawn
for the air corp cadets;
them on
-129-
We
youngster^beine
young men.
f th" Sort of thinS- 1 "member as a
impressed with the physical nature of these
JR:
You mean the German soldiers?
DK:
Yes.
Hltl« had created a master race
ofSblondbhfaded° hw"
6
ri
S
men. Very haoDV hv fb^
?? ' tbey were quite handsome young
the war was over Uk W*y' ™6y sh°Wed no discontent, for them
ne war was over and they seemed very happy about that.
JR:
^earilWtercehnicrar^agini^?flying'
DK:
JR:
bel"g trai-d
I really don't know where they were flying.
^ere?
Wa£
But ves all of th*
SS'S.^-S.'SSi s.srf: ' —
particularlyhstrUting?
DK:
°MS
th°S6 yea" 1944
" 1948
that
I
Lf^!SS like m°ft people who erew up in the World War II era
images are mostly related to the war. It permeated almost
mv
7
^ W" nGWS' friends and
reports""of T
relatives gone,
3 k
the l0Cal pe°ple 3nd
RaHnnL T
forth
vlvidlybit difffrenreme
L^ing on a farm the situation was a
nn5
iTWe W6re ^0t y affected meat rationing because we
had our own. We were affected by sugar rationing. I can remember
with°whi^hSaVe eaC5\m®mber of the family their own weekly ration
ach you could bave a sweet orgy or string it out for the
week. Another area that gave the rural boys an advantage was gas
tracto^fnr ?CTe farme?S Sot more 6as» which they needed for the
tractors for food production and such, the farm boys always had a
S2U1" their Sirlfriends around.
b^H a6 t
The city boys
had A stamps, while the farmers had C and R stamps. These were
designations of how much gas one was allowed to buy
I certainlv
remember in April of 1945 in the school. All the students gathered
in the auditorium, listening to the radio broadcasting the news of
the end of the war in Europe. I would say those WW II days left
big imprints on all those of my generation.
JR:
There was no lower campus to the university at that time?
DK:
No. In fact there were only two classroom buildings then for
college students. The building that is now housing Psychology
across from East Gym, that building and Old Main were the only'two
classroom buildings.
JR:
High school graduation came in 1948, what then?
DK:
Well, it was off to two hitches in the navy, first a one year hitch
and then I returned later for two more years. In between were a
variety of jobs, steel mills, potteries, strip mines and so forth.
I really did not have any intentions to go to college during
-130-
high school or immediately after graduation
I was being subtly
inspired by the professors in high school and by some of the
associations I had with the professors' children. I still did not
think that college was for me. One of my best friends was the son
of the man whose title then was Dean of Instruction, who today
would be called Vice President for Academic Affairs. His name was
Leonard Duncan, and I spent a great deal of time at their home.
Apparently he imagined that he saw some merit in me. When I was in
the military he wrote me a few letters indicating that he thought
that I should enroll in college.
In 1950, after my first hitch in the navy, I went to work in
a steel mill in Youngstown, Ohio. The Korean War broke out in June
of that year. Dr. Duncan wrote me another letter in late July or
early August. His other letters had been rather pleading letters;
this one was sharp and to the point. I can remember the ending of
the letter read, "I've asked you a number of times, I'm never going
to ask you again, but I think you should be in school." And so, I
decided if he has that sort of faith in me, I ought to at least try
and live up to it. I quit the steel mill and enrolled here at
Slippery Rock.
But I only attended one semester in 1950. I was still in the
Naval Reserve, and after one semester of footing my own bills, I
smelled the possibility of a GI bill in the future and I thought
that would be my salvation. So I volunteered to be reactivated in
the reserves and I went back in for two years and indeed did get
the GI Bill. In 1952, I re-enrolled at Slippery Rock and continued
until my degree was complete.
JR:
Was that four year period from 1948 to 1952 a positive experience?
is a physicist with some agency of
experience I was exposed to some good
-131-
minds and had an enjoyable time.
her stud«*s, kind of
a Miss Jane^dv™?
me from high school *nri c*,'
? °^ae t0 colle6e» she remembered
theater and speech which ? gently nudged me in the direction of
iiu speecn, which I enjoyed very much.
hours taken^t^as^lose^n hUf
wsvasz sir? >=
Speech was my minor-
In terms of
that had the talent and ^Mili J?her®were ^ ^es chosen; those
JR:
However you got in there, it was a great thing.
•=• "--is
V~'Er:.T:'l-~
ss-ars;:?s
DK:
our debate team.
They would invite ut t"th *
xiegai at the time.
."rzs,
They were mostly WW II vets.
colleges? ^ lnterC°Uegiate
JR:
A*
debate circul«
Wlng and coached
i^r
"id you debate other
did "°trdebate ir} dosage, only in high school. In high school we
did go to forensic contests. I'll share a ctnrv ^
Ju
contests involving Judge Brydon. Judge Brydon in those days Sas
more inclined to rely on his emotions than his debate technique
The debate we were involved in on this occasion was a state
chosen topic; Resolved:
There should be compulsory arbitration o
all labor disputes. I was on the affirmative side and Judge B^don
was arguing the negative side. Of course we did not debatf eaS
other because we were debating other schools. But my partner and I
had a very finely reasoned, unemotional, perfectly logical
argument. My partner was the person who grew up to be the English
Professor spoken of before. Judge Brydon hadn't done his homework
very well, so he decided to play on the emotions. He told stories
of miners, of young men wheezing from the Black Lung, and told of
undernourished kids and he just went on and on and on. And he won
the debate. Afterward, the female judge came to our two coaches
and said, "That young boy has got to be a miner's son." She said
nobody but a miner's son could feel what he felt. The point is as
all the local people knew, John Brydon's father and grandfather'
were mine operators! But this forensic judge was moved to tears
and gave him the debate.
DK: 1
JR:
Do you remember much about theater in college?
-132-
Yes. I think my first role was as Jebaz
plays b
d
Daniel Webster." Miss Burns had a kn
^ ^particular
on the people she had
I
had a Daniel Webster
year, physically and ability wi ,
^ by glvlng me the role
y
think she was just trying to g
f rmed most competently was
of Stone. Probably the one role I perlotf^^ Reller role> the
outlet for me, to he somebody that I wasn
JR:
SunOS'
--- .
in those undergraduate years you were in History and Speech?
DK:
Yes, except then there was ™ s^b 'y^could hoisted your History
had to take Social Studies and then you co ^
Social
hours if you wished. J°u ^^"ined to teach in the public
Studies courses in order to oe certmcu
schools.
JR:
So when you graduated you had a teaching certificate?
DK:
Yes.
JR:
And did you go immediately to the lab school?
DK-
Yes
I had done my student teaching for Mr. Charles Shaw, whom I
wouid also later work with here. He also came over to the college
after the termination of the lab school. He became a Prof®"°J 1X1
the History Department. I also did some student teaching
Bill Cornell, who would later go onto the faculty at Edinboro
University and he wrote a high school text book for Pennsylvania
After graduation, I interviewed at two different school
districts. As I was leaving an interview that had interested me in
Warren, PA, I was passing the office of a man who was then serving
a dual role. He was director of the lab school, and he was also
supervising principal of the local school district. This man s
name was Dr. Clarence Long. By 1956 we were in a transition; the
lab school was going out because there simply were too many
students for that structure and we were preparing to build the new
high school, which still exists today. At any rate, as I was
passing Dr. Long's office he saw me and motioned for me to come in.
He said that just yesterday he had received a resignation from the
Social Sciences department, and would I be interested? I had never
considered staying locally and I was sort of looking forward to
getting away from where I had been all my life. I told Dr. Long
that I would talk it over with my wife and let him know in a couple
days. Considering expenses and the fact that we were soon to be
parents, and all of the difficulties in moving, this job sounded
like a real easy way out. So I went back and accepted and went to
work immediately.
My role teaching in the lab school was a little different, in
-133-
and role taking and that sort of thing.
JR:
fc people who had faculty rank who taught in the lab schools, did
they have to have graduate degrees?
DK
Yes, a Masters degree was required.
JR
What grades did you begin teaching in?
DK
I began teaching 7th and 8th grade English.
JR
How did that happen?
DK:
That happened because of all of the Speech
an""
I had taken P*- "Vg^'ml en^h credos*tLt Har?isbSg
that sort of thing. It gave
J teU that part of the story.
could certify me. In fact,
,.
, t the
covered
When Dr. Long interviewed me 1he ttld M^that^
have English
is:Sh,r
SSiScSJoTS1^^b- ^ready t-lewed my creditSeanddId
™eo..
JR:
You taught writing and literature and such?
DK:
Oh yes.
And also 10th greekeWorld
section^of 8thUgradeSEnglish and five sections of 10th grade World
History.
JR:
Fun years?
DK:
Yes, definitely.
JR:
You knew the parents of most of the kids?
DK:
Yes. I was warned by many
buffrfaily1^
I was going to have the chil
..../-pif.serving but I think I
did not find that,^°*b
^g^knew the family background of a lot
was a better teach
was in a lot Qf cases more sympathetic,
of these kid5; , I thin
^ and in some cases maybe I came down a
and more considerat
>
COuld see they needed a little
little harder on them becau ^ handicap> and j did not find parents
push. So I did not f
Not one
harassing me or attacking me.
or old friends in any ^way.*
le of instances, not
incident. On occasion, there^ fesso^s who had high aspirations
involving local people,
they hoped I could help their
-134-
kids.
btle suggestions saying "this kid has got to be
Just some subtle sugg
better than this.
JR:
DK:
How large were the classes.
w
I was teaching in a room in what is now
^ r V U ' r t h ^ I ever had a ciass larger than 25
students.
JR:
DK:
What did you do socially as a teach
i became very - t i
in s e ^
few
years of teaching, io lis
^ various times in the local
call super "yuppiedom to y.
t i v e f o r the Boy Scouts, I was
Lions Club, I was district represen
^
active in my church as a
y
o c c u r red in 1964, after I had
The greatest amount of^pride occurr^ ^
^
come over to the col g .
.
t ^ e slippery Rock Creek
sealed mines at the upp
loose a slue of acid which killed
watershed to burst forth a n d f i e ^ ° ° " a R *ckCreek. The creek had
virtually all living things in Slippery Rock ore
klUed by
y
been slowly dying for a n
f
h
c e n t u ry, but then limestone
mine acid Portion at Aeturnof the^cent ry,
q£
the e crlek e and 6 as the limestone was washed the effluent went into
the creek, which kept the acidity of the
1960's
neutralized
But the limestone plant shut down in the early lvou s
and then on top of that the big storm caused the bursting forth^of
these sealed mines, completely killing the creek. The mines had
been sealed during the depression days by the 1 BFA 1 w o r k ®" p .
f
Well, the fishermen and recreationists had been screaming
years for something to be done about the creek.
But generally tne
public doesn't listen to the fisherpeople and boaters and s ^ c h With this highly acidic condition, Elwood City and all of the otner
communities along the creek were going to be seriously affected.
Elwood City would use some of that water in some industrial
processes and it is so acid that it will eat their metal equipment.
So suddenly there is a great public outrage.
JR:
Because we're talking money and jobs now.
DK:
Yes indeed. We organized the Slippery Rock Creek Watershed
Association. I served as Secretary, state representative Don Fox
from Lawrence County was president. Murph Shellgren was the
prominent chemist who monitored creek conditions. He was the
technical advisor to the organization. We got action. The 1965
Strip Mine Act of Pennsylvania was not exclusively an o u t g r o w t h o
our activity, but we were the strongest lobbying group.
I think we
could point to what happened here as influencing a lot of people.
In 1960, Dr. Long asked me to take on some additional
responsibilities at the Lab school. I said that I never really
wanted to go into administration and had not thought much about it.
I had no certification and my degree was in History. He said he
knew all that, but that he would give me a title that did not
-135-
require a certificate. I was to be called an Administrative
Assistant or Assistant Superintendant. Because of the money, I
took the job. I worked for Dr. Long for one year and then he
resigned and moved to a job in Elwood City. The high school
principal, Neal Williams, then became the Superintendent and I
worked for him as his assistant for one year.
During the second year of that job, about mid-spring of 1963,
Bob Duncan and Charles Halt got in touch with me and said the
college was going to have another opening and they said I should
apply. I told them I was already rejected once and I didn't enjoy
brick walls. They said some things had changed, so I applied and
this time I was hired and began teaching at the college in
September of 1963.
I found out later what had happened. In a variety of ways
the local school district and the college had to cooperate. There
were overlapping functions in the community and so forth, and
occasionally the school board and the college administrators had to
meet. Well, several years after I had been hired, I heard that
there had been a meeting between the school board and President
Weisenfluh. One of the school board members, for some reason, was
apparently misled by me and made some very laudatory statements
about the job I had done as a teacher and administrator, and I
guess that had an effect on President Weisenfluh. So he let it be
known that he would consider me even though I was a graduate of
Slippery Rock.
JR:
Was all hiring kind of at the whim and caprice of the President?
DK:
Oh, absolutely.
JR:
You began as an Assistant Professor?
DK:
Yes, and I even took a slight cut in pay.
JR:
Do you remember your lab school salary?
DK:
Yes, I made $3400 in 1956. And here at Slippery Rock I remember
the beginning salary as an Assistant Professor in 1963 was $6500.
JR:
Then you went to graduate school?
DK-
Although there was nothing in writing, I had promised Dr
Duncan
the chlir of the History Department, that I would get my doctorate.
T crnt- mv tenure before I got the doctorate; in fact, I got my
tenure before I even started a firm program for the doctorate. So,
since I had given my word and having come from a family where you
since i n
g
j
j did gtart
the Unlversity of
Pittsburgh
rittSDurgn,
where I took a'couple of courses. I had some unhappy
wii
.
with erades. I was carrying
d
_n ^ manner
experiences there.nothing to^do with^
I felt was'being treated byPPpItt, and I thought of going
in which 1 felt
.
because I still had connections there
rp-f^or^Sred me and with whom I'd had good
S"ab^
experiences.
-136-
T TNNV a trip to Indiana
During Christmas
have offered me was an
University. The/b®st ^e?1400 for the year. I had a former friend
assistantship which paid 5
the name of Ben Bastj he
who I had gone to Slipp'ery
He had gotten his
Rock in »56.
pP
and I had graduated from
So while I was in
tate University.
PhD and was teac^n| u State primarily to see my old friend, and
Indiana, I went to Ba
there and asked a gentleman
I saw
S
went into the History Department there an
Dr> Bast had left a
there if Dr. Bast
at
P- ous y and wasdteachinge
year
well, as
Johns on Long Island, NY.
^
^
St.
_f ,.u Historv Department, and he was a
$3900Pfor
IK
half-tim^instruetorship for
the year and, with a spouse
and two children, that was a lot better than
Really it was
a practical decision to go to Ball State even though it certainly
was not a well known program.
JR:
Were you in residence there just a year?
DK:
Yes, just a year, and taught two classes a day. I completed one
language requirement, and had to delay the second. It was a busy
year. Again, I was very fortunate in that while I was away in
Muncie, one of the numerous administrative upheavals of Slippery
Rock was occurring. Strategically I had a feeling that if I was
going to move into the Associate Professor's ranks, maybe during
this period of uncertainty and transition would be an extremely
good time. We were between Presidents, we had acting Presidents.
So, I rushed home to Slippery Rock with all of my hours and my
application, and when I returned I came back as an Associate
Professor rather than an Assistant Professor.
JR:
So you were made an Associate in 1969?
DK:
Yes, as of the fall of 1969.
JR:
And when did the full Professorship come?
DK:
I believe it was 1976. I got myself involved in a very
tedious dissertation topic. It was an analysis of the pioneer
settlers of six western Pennyslvania counties; while it was not my
only source of information, my primary source was the census of
1860, which was the first very comprehensive census. I was working
in the manuscripts of the census and codifying 184,000 people in
six variables, and building a profile; who are these people, where
did they come from, what were there property holdings, there sex
and ages, occupations.
JR:
v°Hdid y°U
nobby?
DK:
Well, as I said earlier, growing up on a farm, very isolated with no
g6t int° the historY
°f Indians?
-137-
Was that kind of a
near neighbors and any neighbors we had, their youngsters were
expected to be working a great deal of the time, too. Even when I
had a neighbor, when I was free to roam, maybe he wasn't, because
we had responsibilities, and without other people, without tennis
courts and ballfields, my pleasure was all found in the woods with
hunting and fishing and trapping.
Thats the way I grew up.
I once really considered Forestry or Wildlife Management as a
career, but I only had the money to go to Slippery Rock. Once I
got into History I knew that was my thing. I read a lot of Earnest
Thompson Seaton when I was a kid, he was a naturalist, one of the
founders of the Boy Scouts, but he became alienated because he
thought the Boy Scouts had become to citified. He wrote a lot of
children's books--I enjoyed them very much--and he wrote a lot
about Indians. So the interest was always there, and nothing was
being done about it. I had a lot of frontier courses, though I did
not have any special courses on Indians, but I took a lot of
courses on the American frontier in graduate school.
So I had no special training, but I had the lifelong interest
and all of the frontier classes, and so I started the course as an
experimental course and of course the students latched onto it. It
was a popular thing and it has retained its popularity. I have
been encouraged to offer more than one section, but I think you
have a way of killing a course if you do it too much, so I've
preferred to keep it to one section a semester.
JR:
Well, you have been there for sometime. You must have some
overviews of the evolution of this place over the past 35-40 years
as a college. For instance, we have 370 faculty now, roughly, when
you matriculated here there must have been 50-60?
DK:
Maybe 50. Again, in those days we did not monitor things that
closely, but I would be surprised if it was much over 50. I have
some impressions, I don't know if they have any validity or not.
I'm not sure where to start, but certainly I would say that overall
what has happened is good. We can produce so much more. In the
past we could only produce teachers, although a great many people
came here and did two years in the normal school and went on to
become doctors, lawyers, engineers. That is documented
But now
we can offer them all of these possibilities, they don t have to go
elsewhere. I think that is very good.
I think we have sacrificed a lot, though as we've grown in
the personal interaction between faculty and students. I think it
was L my advantage, for instance, that every professor in the
History Department had me several times and their impressions,
whether trL or false, they had confidence that their impressions
were
into me and
frustrated as a Professor having a student come
one^their usual^three^Senior
^
wanting
recommendations,
a recommenciation
for
face. ^%stu^n" afd„ kLw that I had them, but I'm a little
them, and I will
remember you very well. I tell them what
e
reluctant because If
^£nd them since x keep
flliSIS:m^if they were attending class regularly and
-138-
, mavbe I can remember if they
what grade they got on tests an
y but other than that, I can't
recited in class to
gteat excen ,
^Dr ^
^
say very much. The student will reply.
yon know me as well as anyone else.
reg
any
JR:
DK:
.r
,.onr email
A lot of parents think of us
they expect me to know their child. I
6000 students here and it is quire y
without me meeting them.
and when I meet them,
them there are 5000.
tQ
four years
That is a very common ^"ience^ I ^^Lsfion "tut I have a
embarrassing moments, and again
X would
Grove City.
ssji:X';;"ITSSd.C,i51^t u n « . . T i .
never ^t down because I would stand and talk to him so people
would not mistake me for a potential client and create a line and
so forth. I was standing there and talking to him one day and
there was a gentleman in the chair, and finally, my frien d
the barber, said do you two know each other? And I said no the
gentleman in the chair said no, and Glenn said, Don Kelly this is
Frank Hoffman, he's in the Biology Department." And like a fool, I
shook his hand and said, "Welcome to Slippery Rock." He said Thank
you, I've been here for five years." So it is not only students we
don't get acquainted with, its the faculty, too, sometimes.
Anyway, I think our multi-degree capacity now is a real good
thing. I have to look back with real nostalgia, 50 or less, that I
had were very good, with very few exceptions, and maybe I'm saying
that now since I am in the role of a professor and I don't hear
anything special coming out of my mouth. Sometimes I think, gee,
those guys were better than I am, and better than a lot of my
colleagues today, even though we were a small school with not much
of a reputation. I think I am a good enough judge to say there
were some really great teachers.
JR:
Do you think it has anything to do with us being more high profile
now? When you are a smaller institution and everyone is having a
look at you, maybe you've got to perform better. Maybe all of that
community service stuff created a tightness that was a positive
force.
DK:
There was a certain dignity about these people, too, that we don't
have today.
JR:
I remember my elementary school teachers in great detail, and they
were so very, very good, in my opinion, and I've been in this
education business for 35 years. Can you imagine the University of
Minnesota with 40,000 students. Ball State must have been fair
sized?
DK:
About 15,000 students when I was there.
Indiana U is up around 40,000 now.
JR:
Lets talk about History majors for a minute. You've been in the
History Department since 1963, and the majors in the social
-139-
Not large by any means.
sciences, economics, History, Political Science--has that declined
over a period of time or stayed steady.
DK:
It declined seriously from about 1970 to maybe 1983 or so. For a
period of 12-15 years there was a very serious decline. The
education majors in the Social Sciences declined because there were
no jobs in the secondary schools. You had to be very mobile and
willing to move to find a job. Other than education, History
majors sometimes go to law school, or into theology. History
majors do a variety of things. But to be a historian unless you
want to go on to teach in higher education and get your advanced
degrees, it is sort of a dead end street. You might become an
archivist or something like that, but there aren't many
opportunities, so we had a very serious decline. But those that we
had were very committed to their craft, and some had some very good
people, though there numbers were few. Our department staff
declined from 15 in 1970 to eight a couple of years ago. piat was
because of declining enrollments in History. That is turning
around, especially in General Education, History has somehow or
another been reborn in the eyes of some students. That makes me
happy, and we are experiencing some growth in our majors, but we
have a tremendous pressure for our survey classes. We are now back
up to about 11 people in the department, although one of them is
still a temporary.
JR:
Has the Carnegie Commission had an impact on the number of History
majors or the preparation of History teachers for secondary
education?
DK-
Certainly I think the Carnegie report had a lot of impact on People
who read it, but the average high school student was not affected
much
I'm not sure what has done it. It has regained
respectability. You know, in the 60's the past was not even to be
considered and this went on into the 70's, forget the past, the
•u
nr> value
it can only confuse our future if we
think about it
This was the attitude. Somehow or other, now they
are learning
like old Ezra Pound, that those that don't learn
History^are doomed to repeat it, and so forth and so on. I think
we are learning some of that again.
JR:
Do you have other impressions, student body, faculty, physical
facilities?
DK:
imnressions about the student body, and I don't
I have some sjr°ng i p
misinterpreted, because I
mean to be unkind and I hope it wo
^^ have fewer truiy
think there are reJ®on®ercentage wise. I've tried to think about
uutstandrng students
perc ^
availabiUty of aid.
Good
that and I think it "
whQ came here_ thelr
secondary scho°i=^ents they're not upptr middle class, if
parents are ""king parents,^ y^
^
anything they are
g
really prestigious schools, so
couldn't
afford
to
send
them^to tihe:
J
P ^ S^a ^
^^rtsfandi^udLts can find the wherewithal to go to
-140-
Qf
Harvard or Yale, Princeton, wherever and therefore I don't see many
of that top 5%.
. t.
„nrV habits who are also talented
Those people with gre
recruiting, is our
youngsters
Are we missing the boat i^sQmethin| we flre
alumni sending us the wrong peopie,
doing?
I don't know what^re^ot
school with one exception. I find myself often getting kids from
Long Island or Connecticut, not that we have a lot but we have
some and I often ask them what attracted them to Slippery Rock?
Thev are often times Physical Education majors and have had in high
school a Physical Education teacher who is a Slippery Rock
graduate who promoted Slippery Rock to them
But it most often
happens with Physical Education majors. As I said this is not a
scientific study, and I don't know if it will hold water, but that
is my personal experience.
When we promote people here, up through the professorial
ranks, we make a big deal of the fact that we are not a publish or
perish institution, and that the primary emphasis is on teaching
skills and ability. Is there a chance that this has lessened our
scholarly output in some fashion?
I think it has, but again, I'm going to be very frank, because in my
experience, and I've served on promotion committees two different
times, I've served on tenure committees. While we are told this by
many people, my experience has been, in recent years, without some
type of publications you are not going to get promoted. Now how I
feel about this, this is very personal, first of all, I don't like
the hypocrisy of saying one thing and promoting on the merit of
another. As you say, we'll emphasize good teaching, but when it
comes to the promotion process we'll say, well you're not excellent
in scholarly growth so therefore you can not be promoted because
you did not publish. There is a hypocrisy there, it seems to me.
If they want both, then I think we have to give people some time to
research and publish. Or quit using it as a weapon. That is very
personal, its heresy probably.
What about attracting faculty to Slippery Rock University. We hear
a lot about the fact that the "hotshots" don't want to come here,
it is very hard to attract good people. I've never been a fan of
a ,
ve always thought that they were competitive in terms of
salary and in terms of the working environment. People don't turn
wives^air31136 ^ are
nbackwoods-w
I think it is kind of an old
Lbarra^P^c^0?111?16116 aSreement with you. I know one of the
embarrassment W * ?^rienced. not an excruciating
with mv Associat-p v* ? 1
°ne' Was w^en 1 came back there in 1968
fesaorshi
making more monpv ^°
P. " I've already mentioned. I was
y
an the man who guided my dissertation at Ball
-141-
State University. My wife has been attending seminary in
Pittsburgh, and I've become acquainted with a lot of the staff at
the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. A very scholarly group, a
much published group, and they do give them light schedules for the
purpose of research and publication. But salary wise, I rather
pity them.
JR:
I have had that experience with Grove City College when they find
out not just the salary, but when they see what the fringe benefit
package is, they get a little green, and that is understandable.
In the early 70's when we went with APSCUF and unionized throughout
the state college system, one of the things that happened in that
transition was the "all college" committees. In retrospect, do you
have a feeling about how positive that force has been in terms of
fairness across the board for sabbaticals and promotions and all
that sort of thing?
DK:
Are you prepared for a little heresy? First of all, I certainly was
a strong supporter of APSCUF, I belonged from the beginning, I
belonged before we had a collective bargaining agreement even. I
have belonged to a number of labor unions in my life, as low as the
hod carriers. I believe in organization and I was looking forward
to the "self-governance" the collective bargaining agreement might
bring, and I would not want to throw it out.
But my experiences on committees have caused me to become a
little cynical about committing myself or anyone else to the
judgements of one's peers. I say that because sitting on
committees I found that there are all sorts of hidden agendas that
I'm not astute enough to read or recognize. Let's say it would be
a promotion, and you would sit there and you would listen to the
discussion on an individual, and ultimately all those who are up
for promotion, and you would tally in your mind how the vote will
ultimately turn out on the basis of what you have heard. Then you
submit it to a secret ballot, and it makes no sense, on the basis
of what is said it makes no sense. I don't know how to interpret
that except to say that there are hidden agendas, there are maybe
personal feuds, jealousies that I am unaware of that affect
committees of our peers. With the protection of the secret ballot,
those things can happen. That is the one regrettable thing I have
about the collective bargaining agreement is all of our committees.
I have thought a lot about that one, this isn't shooting from the
hip.
JR:
You have seen the town of Slippery Rock for a long time and the
relationship between the town and the University. Has that been a
thing that has gotten better and better, do you think? Is this a
good college town, or is that a dumb question?
DK*
No, that's not a dumb question, but it is certainly a^
difficult question. Again, this is one person s opinion only,
because I have been on both sides of the fence. All of my 1 e
I've been a local person and I certainly see both angles, and from
the stand point of a college student I think Slippery Rock could
very well be a boring little town to be in, particularly
-142-
student is from an urban area. On the other hand, I do believe
that local people have a certain right to peace and quiet, and I
can understand their irritability when their tranquility is
disrupted at two o'clock in the morning by a noisy party and that
sort of thing. I think probably there has been less serious
trouble than there is potential for trouble.
JR:
This town is fairly small to house a college this size, the students
outnumber the townspeople three to one. Maybe that imbalance
strains the situation.
DK:
A few townspeople, however, do recognize that this town might nnf
forth W i ? ^ £ h l S c o l l e & a n d t h e i n c °ne that it generates and so
rortn. I think many of them are somewhat philosophical about
putting up with what they feel and as some of the less desirabl
e
JR:
Have you ever lived in town?
DK:
here r and V I d reaUy™; r ate d L^stud'tV" l n c i d e n t t h a t occurred
was in the early 70'a sort of at th
v, " . 3 f e " y e a r s a 8°- This
h e h e i g h t of the ecology
movement
T \> a *
beyond where the maintenance'"building ? "
°f C3mpus'
n°W' n f a r 3 l o n g p a t h t h a t
non-bused high school students used t
C° t h e 8 c h ° o 1 ' a p a t h
off of High Street. Just beyond collei
p
r
o
p ? r t y- o n private
property, there were beer cans knee deen
that the college kids had b e e n * n e e dee P» w e l l maybe ankle deep
f-ternities a^d sororities^andtchLST t h " e ' S e V e r a l «* * •
publicity lately in the Rocket the r rf ®2 n g e t t i n g a lot of
a"d 311 the local
Papers, for cleaning up the highways and^h 6
Rock, getting a lot of PR. j fort o f J a PP r o a ches to Slippery
hypocrisy of posing for all of th*c
f t t a c k ed them for the
6
p
i ? t u r e s when they had totally
befouled this property where nohnd
J
"7"
DK:
*" "i>" t.».
I don't know.
A lot
some place to drink and ? can'tT'
WlU
b.„„
t e l 1 y °"
th. torn
having
JR:
DK:
p witn our students?
can
---
have a more
activities^throughout^the^ear^fon^our^maj*^^' ^^"hav^three
jors or those considering
-143-
a History major. One is the picnic in the fall in which we have
soft drinks and beer and food and so forth, we cater it, and they
get to see us as human beings and we play volleyball and horseshoes
and such. Your suggestion might well be a good experience if more
of that was done. I received a notice from current Vice-President
Foust about inviting freshmen to your home, but now I have a
handicap since I live 35 miles away now so that is just impractical
for me to take students to my home. That is kind of unfortunate
and we do have a lot of commuting faculty, too. A lot of them live
in New Castle, or Butler, and some even live in Pittsburgh. It
makes that sort of interaction difficult.
-144-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Sally Lennox
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Sally, how did you come to choose to Slippery Rock University as
your school of higher education?
SL:
Like many students in western PA. my family was not college
educated. Resources financially were not great. So I had my
choice only of state colleges. Since I did want to teach it was
logical that I choose a state college anyway to get a good basic
education and to become a public school teacher. I chose Slippery
Rock University probably because I had some excellent teachers
probably the best math teacher I had was a Slippery Rock Universitv
graduate. I thought so much of him.
DK:
Could you name that person?
SL:
one poor
DK''
lA-Z* °f ^
™
that exPerience
too.
SL:
studie^minor'was'very'easy'to
My main interest was in English
DK:
g°°d al®eb" Ceacb"
*»'
I had an excellent aleebra
111iw
UP'
A SOcial
ls wh^ ic was
there.
Did you teach English upon graduating.
SL:
mother who^ad children' anc^s tayedhome6 °ld
DK:
SL:
fashioned early
sixties
Where did you get this husband with whom you had children and stayed
Nothing would do of course hut- = ci •
"^started to date when we were fresELTher^ **££*££*in
DK:
^
SL:
^
then. Don't
°ther social activities?
Well you have to understand that t-h*
•
than now
We had more rules than werf^p16® W6re Very different
i0t of
N°W "6 l0°k back
Northman" 5* r6ally didn'b hurt us
the women
rtn Hall. It was unheard of in
lived in
W3S for»idden for women
to live elsewhere. We were in our do™
night unless we had earned privileges^, T* " eiSht-thirty at
865 t0 stay out until ten-thirty.
-145-
There was very little social activity simply because there was very
little in Slippery Rock and hardly anyone was wealthy enough to own
a car. So I don't think I missed a thing. It was a good time with
the women in North Hall, the men in South Hall. We had fun, we had
good times, but it was, I'm not going to say mindless good times it
was just gentle good times.
Who was the Dean of Women during your stay here?
The Dean of Women was Miss Lois Harner. Today the students think of
her as a building and we think of her as a very real person. When I
came back to Slippery Rock, when my husband accepted a job here
about fifteen years ago, she greeted me by name, asked about my
room-mates, remembered everything about me. Unfortunately she
remembers everything bad that any of us ever did. But I've always
had a feeling that although she told us how serious it was, she
didn't pay much attention to it.
She was a remarkable woman.
She still is a remarkable woman.
She was my ninth grade English teacher and also one of my
instructors here in college. It was my good fortune, just two
years ago, to see her at a high school reunion. She must be in her
eighties. She is just as sharp and her memory as clear as you
describe it fifteen years ago.
She was back for a weekend just two weekends ago, looking great.
A lot of fond memories and as you say she is much more than a
building. That is for certain. You mentioned your husband, could
you name him?
I think I could name him. Uh, Slippery Rock University had a very
tough problem through the years. We have never had enough men to
go around. In the fifties and the sixties it wasn't quite as
serious as it was during the war years. One of the yearbooks
showed three senior men, ten men on campus. There were never very
many men on campus. When I was here there were five women to a
man. So you had to choose your man early and work hard at getting
him.
I'm assuming that is what you did.
I certainly did.
What was Bill's major?
Bill was a physical education major. At the time, over half of us
were physical education majors, especially the men.
I assume as a physical education major he was involved in athletics.
What were his activities?
-146-
SL:
1, ^o-rcnt!
And he played a little bit of soccer. But
He was a trac p
*
Domisley was his coach, Jim Egli was
son>
mostly he was a t
P
campell Snowburger was his coach. A lot
" ^ b o d y remembers from Slippery Rock
University.
DK:
After your and Bill's graduation, where did you go?
first jobs?
SL:
My first job was at a school that is no more, through no
fault of mine, at Darlington. Darlington, Pennsylvania lost their
High School when they joined in to a jointure.
DK:
That is in northern Beaver county isn't it?
SL:
It was in the Black Hawk school district now, yes. Bill
went to Riverside, which was a brand new school just opening up.
After that as I said before, I left, we had two children. He
continued to teach at Riverside for a long time then he went to
Butler. Then he came on to Slippery Rock University as track
coach.
DK:
In what year did you return to Slippery Rock University?
SL:
For some reason I always draw a blank with that. He has been on the
faculty here for over fifteen years but we didn't move for a few
years.
DK:
Did you continue during his early years being the wife and mother
rather than being professionally employed anywhere?
SL:
Yes.
DK
Do you sometimes wish for it again?
SL:
Well I don't have any kids left. So I don't know what I would do if
I were home now. My kids are in Florida.
DK:
SL:
Where were your
It's an old idea but it's a good one.
nniLr h ir L e t l ? 0 X u S a r f V e r y m u c h l n v °l v e d with Slippery Rock
University, both mother and father. What about the children?
1983° n Mv H
S 1 i? P e r ? R °Ck University
graduate.
He graduated in
DK:
h
"
-
SL:
a^tan*
B e S i n n i n g with, since he was four
years old his^irft^ir
b o o k - he has been
interested ^
could go on a round^he world tri^v?^^ 1 0 1 1 1 ° k a y e d t h 3 t h 6
P with his aunt who is not
healthy. Thev DarfpH m
y p a r t e d Com P an y and he continued on his way and for
-147-
six months he traveled around the world by himself. He will never
recover. He is planning right now to head out again in August and
go around the world again. This time to hit those places that he
said he missed. He might go back to see the pyramids again. He has
always been fascinated by the pyramids and after he took Clarie
Settlemire's class he was really fascinated by the pyramids. He
will spend a month in Africa and go on to India. It scares me to
death.
DK:
I'm sure.
SL:
But he has so many good history teachers through the years.
DK:
It sounds like he is an experienced traveler.
SL:
But with good history teachers, they put these places in
front of you and you think "I have to see this, I have to
experience this..." and that is what he is going to do.
DK:
Curiosity is the basis of education and knowledge. Without
curiosity not much happens. I can appreciate Billy's viewpoint
very much. Of course today you are Alumni Director, is that the
proper title?
SL:
Director of Alumni Affairs.
DK:
Director of Alumni Affairs, when did you become involved
with the Alumni Association and eventually evolve into this head
position?
SL:
Mostly by default I became, Fred Williamson was the
director, had received my name from somewhere and called and asked
if I knew how to do books. I didn't know a debit from a credit and
I said "sure I know how to do that..." I experimented, faked,
figured it out, talked to people, and took the job as the
bookkeeper. Then when Fred left, we were left without a director.
I had started to help him, I had done some of the job, and I more
or less just fell into it. What I lacked in experience and
specific knowledge, I think I made up with enthusiasism and a great
love for Slippery Rock University.
DK:
And how many years have you been in this position.
SL:
Almost five.
DK:
Almost five years. Prior to the five years as the Director of the
Alumni Association, how long were you working with the Association?
SL:
Just about a year.
DK:
I would say that is pretty rapid advancement, after a year you
become director. That is pretty good.
SL:
That was being in the right place at the right time.
-148-
DK'
That haptens to a lot of us. Rather than degrading ourselves we
should take credit for ability instead of making these excuses.
How many alumni are there at Slippery Rock University, living
alumni t h a t you know of and have records t o r .
SL:
We have 28,000 living "alums". We are in contact with about 26,000
I tell them if you don't hear from us every four months, we have
lost you. It is your responsibility to let us know. A very small
percentage do let us know, they just figure that we will find them
and usually we do.
DK:
That was my next question; How committed are they to following
these instructions of keeping you informed.
SL:
DK:
Our new alums are very good, our eighties people have been very
excellent. I think it is because when they leave I began to bribe
my way into as many classes as I can get into and tell them what I
think their responsibilities are. If it is not a definite
responsibility at least I point out to them that they are a member
of a group and you don't just push that off and say well I'm out of
here with my diploma. I tell them what the alumni is about, what
it does, how important it is to have a strong alumni, how their
degree is only as good as the next degree that walks out of here,
you know we are all responsible for each other, or we are going to
be looked at in that manner. It is not fair but that is simply the
way it is. So it is up to them to keep good students coming, give
Slippery Rock University a little good press, and of course as I
always say, pay your dues; you have to put that in. They are
better than our fifties and sixties people. They are not good
alums. Thirties people are wonderful. They come from California
to spend the weekend with us, alumni weekend. Some couples drive
from Florida every year for alumni weekend. Our fifties and
sixties people we just can't get moving.
Let me ask you this since I am a fifties person, as are you; might
it be, as you say the thirties are good and the twenties are good
7 a £! ? o w / i f t y a n d sixty years removed from the
1
1
Mi^ht rw '
^ ^ e e i l n g S ° f l o y a l t y a n d nostalgia are stronger
Might that occur with the fifties and sixties people in the
S 3 5 t h e y g e t f u r t h e r removed might
they
fondr t yon
" h Utheir
J! d r e d educational
they look
look more
more fondly
past?
SL:
school here I really°loved SU P r ° b l ® m s w a s t h a t w h e * I was in .
went home for vacation we ius^didn^t
JJ n i v e rsity, almost never
Came and stayed t i U
Thanksgiving, we staved till r-hw ?
liked the Place« and *
were having a good time here
morning classes had something to do'witlTthat
If"™* S a t U r d a y
class until one-o-clock Saturday you did nor
I Y ? U ""J
g° to° f a r '
But our
seventies and eighties neonlp «=LZJ llSP
Ve
t
h
3
t
t
h
e
o
r
thinking it is because no one told them N°
y- 1 ^
t^emalumni association this i<; w v, a tNo one said, this is an
h°W
WlU ke6P
you informed, this'is what we expect WW*
P t back from you. We expect you
-149-
to pay your dues, we expect you to let us know when you move. We
want to hear from you. It was too impersonal which is no one's
fault. The college just simply did not have an employee. They had
volunteers. They had the infamous Maree McKay. They had Maggie
Meise. They had Carl Laughner. But they didn't give it an
importance as it had at a smaller college. I think that was the
difference. Most people get out of the habit of giving, or caring,
or returning. It is hard to get them in. That is why we really
try to push homecoming. If you have been to homecoming lately you
know how many thousands of young people are there. We want them
back.
DK:
I wondered and certainly I don't know, I am just throwing this out
as a possibility. Might there be some relationship between the
older days when we all got out and became teachers at very modest
salaries, and now in this current multi-purpose institution in
which we are sending people out into all kinds of fields, many of
them much better paying than education. Are they more able, more
affluent to play an active role in things and pay their dues, etc.
than perhaps the people who are from an earlier era; just a
question.
SL:
I don't think so. When dues were five dollars twenty-five years ago
there probably was not someone who couldn't afford fifty cents a
month. It was a matter of saying . . . no . . . well maybe not
even consciously saying, just simply not doing it. Now I tell
them, what can you get for fifteen dollars. You can get a half of
a pizza and something to drink. You could go to Rachel's by
yourself. Or you can pay me fifteen dollars. I think we use that
not as a reason Don, but as an excuse. You and I know that
teachers just about everywhere are making a very nice living. It
is very hard for me not to answer when someone from N. Allegheny or
someone from the Pittsburgh school district says, "How can you
expect me to donate? We are only teachers." I know what they are
making and you know what they are making. I think they have hidden
behind that and I don't think it is valid.
DK:
I think that is a very pertinent observation on your part. I have
heard the excuse that is why I posed the question as I did.
SL:
Oh sure, you have heard the excuse.
hundreds on the telephone.
DK:
What are, other than just dues, fund raising activities of the
Alumni Association?
SL:
Well, starting about five years ago when the foundation was formed
to become stronger, I don't have other fund raising. Nothing else
comes out of this office. There were two funds that belonged to
the alumni traditionally and that's the N. Kerr Thompson fund,
donated to by what Mrs. Thompson calls the young lads. The young
lads graduated in 1939, however. They still donate to Coach's
fund. They feel a great loyalty to him. A lot of people still
donate nothing big and we don't even send them the regular
-150-
We hear it by the
solicitation to the Maree McKay fund.
Because Maree is responsible
for a lot of people finishing, graduating, getting a job, sticking
it out. She was a one person dynamo. She ran the place.
DK:
Do you mean "were forced to take her advice" and then went on to
graduation?
SL:
Yes. I know one man who was ready to graduate and had to take one
summer school course. He needed one credit. So he looked down the
list and thought, "Hmm... camp craft sound like a good course to
me." She changed it. Now can you imagine doing that to a student
today. She changed it to World Geography. He went to her and he
said, "I don't want to take that." She said, "Young man if you
want to graduate you will take it." And by-golly he did take it.
A lot of people have a great loyalty to her.
DK:
Well I know that being involved with this institution in
some level or another from the period of the WW II vets
through the Korean vets there was no combat veteran that she
couldn't terrorize.
SL:
She was one powerful woman here. But we have a scholarship in her
name. It is something the Alumni Association is very proud of.
For a long time it was an only academic scholarship on campus. We
will award this year eleven $500.00 scholarships toward senior
tuition.
DK.
I believe that she was a Slippery Rock University alumni also wasn't
she.
SL:
No she wasn't. She came here as a registrar. It runs
in my mind she was Bethany. Small, private but she loved Slippery
r
J
Rock University.
DK:
There is no question about that.
SL:
£tSh,LeirClallZ l0VCu the Slippery Rock University students.
Once she started here she was an active member on the Alumni
B^r^ost :?'all^rre"ist«retary-
^1<>tS °f J°bS
DK
A person who's bark was considerably worse than her bite.
SL
Yes.
DK
SL:
h,r*''
^rfthSe'anvh^turfn?^'1016^ t0 brin* ffi0st ^into line.
Alumni Association?
^°r alteratlons to the activities of the
^ criticism of the Alumni Assoriatinn v>or. v.
*
tJlat we don,t have
enough programming. But we are of on^
money so that is not a reason but so
everybody is limited by
take"
by other departments of the college?h«nso!UnCt£°n?
alumni. For instance there is no
schools use as
no reason or no way we could have a
-151-
vacation college for just alumni. We have a vacation college. Our
travel program is limited because we have a good travel program at
Slippery Rock University. So probably our thrust is to keep alumni
all over the country informed. This becomes a bigger and bigger
job because alumni used to live in Western Pa. You graduated from
here, you went back to your hometown, and you stayed in the general
area. You could read about things in the paper. You could visit
Slippery Rock University. Now we have people who never, never come
back. We try to visit them to let them know what is going on. The
president takes a trip every year, a couple trips, to keep them
informed, to keep them interested, to show them how we are growing
academically. We send them a newspaper four times. We send them
additional information whenever the budget allows. We are trying
to keep them as a member of the community because we think it is
important. As I told you before, we think it is important so that
when they do something it shows in their ressume that they started
at Slippery Rock University. This is where they got their roots.
Most of them are bachelor degree students. This is where they got
there roots. This is where they learned what kind of people they
were going to be. We would like to see them in the press release.
A lot of them are in public education. They are superintendents of
schools, the guidance counselors. We think that our educational
programs are strong enough so that they should be sending us their
good students, not the student who did not get in somewhere else.
This in the early seventies was too often the case. We would like
to see and hear good press. Not just what a good time they had
here, but how they learned something of value. Sometimes it makes
us very angry when we hear somebody in a good job who almost lets
it be known that they got the job in spite of, not because of their
good Slippery Rock University education. This is a tough one.
I have had any number of people tell me though that even in areas
where perhaps the Slippery Rock University reputation is not well
established, seeing that name on credentials often will get you at
least to the interview stage. Have you heard that?
Yes. The name works for us and against us. The magic of the name
is, what a funny place, and just laugh at the name. It does get
your foot in the door. We hope it gets a loyalty. We know it did
for two young people: Billy Bejorstead who is an elementary
teacher, and his wife. They got jobs in San Diego because the
superintendent of schools is a Slippery Rock University person. He
made no bones about it. He said, "I saw Slippery Rock University
and I thought, this can't be all bad." They got the jobs they went
after.
Do you know name of this superintendent?
No I don't. But the problem with it is that some people
discount us. It becomes just a joke, just a football school. It
does work two ways. But you can sell your Slippery Rock University
shirt anywhere in the world and make a profit.
I think we are in transition.
I think we are leaning more to the
-152-
academic reputation than just the funny name that we used to.
really think we are moving away from that.
I
SL:
I think all of us are working toward that.
DK:
Well I hear it from alumni, that they are being respected.
SL:
You can't discount our alumni. We have people all over in very
responsible positions. We have college presidents. People who are
running big companies; the president of Thrift Drug is a Slippery
Rock University graduate, a physical education major. Lots of
Medical Doctors. Such a cross stream of people who are making it.
They can't discount us any longer, saying oh we are just a teacher,
which always angered me because the teacher is responsible for
everybody, teachers school.
DK:
You mentioned that you have a, what is the proper name for branch
associations?
SL:
We call them chapters.
D K :
. . . chapters throughout the country. What are some of the major
chapters we have scattered across the United States?
SL:
The further away you are from home, the more home looks good to you
We have five groups we meet with in Florida. One of them is
thirteen years old. We have a group for everybody. We have older
people. We have a mixed group and we have very young people. So
JJe
flv® there and we have four groups that we met in
California for the first time ever this past year. We met a group
fT°m the class of 1931 caa>e in and he was so
®3? ieg°u
surprised
He said, I just knew that I would be the only one here
and the oldest here." He was neither. Neither the oldest nor the
PooL°neH
T iUf as1haPPy as he could be. His name is Ed
Pocka. He was back for alumni weekend about two or three years
ago. Playing tennis against our varsity tennis players
He do go
VirginiaSBeach in^d "e baVe
there
education.
aatronS
concentration in Norfolk and
They are a very young population
rLrMfn^TLw^r8 °r SO uthat 1 have been here and th
youngsters from Long Island" An^nmber'of times6! h numbe^ of
1 have s"d' bow
did you choose Slippery Rock UniveSrttv L
teacher from Slippery Rock Universlt^'l ™VT" "'J had 3
chapter, however in Long Island might Jw »°ndering there is no
llty?
AS
I say because I seem to have heak Jhat flot thM
attracted to Slippery Rock University because thev had*
3
school teacher from Slippery Rock University.
SL:
We've never gone into New York. But t-Me
working on a meeting that they would like to havp
7^ i glJ^S
3
after homecoming so we could take a video I
Z
clttle bit
they are missing, from northern New Jersey, Shic^is r?ght across"
-153-
the river so we hope to pick up some of those people at that one.
DK:
Well I think we've had a good interview and you've been very, very
informative and perhaps when these tapes are reviewed, things that
you have told me will spark greater alumni involvement in the
future. Those few people from our own era the 50's and 60's that
have been perhaps a little remiss in their loyalty, maybe we can
get some activity. Thank you very much Sally.
SL:
Oh you're welcome.
-154-
Slippery Rock University
An Early Alumni Profile
and
Selected Oral Histories
Donald S. Kelly and George T. Force
f;;
•
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V
,
A PROFILE OF THE EARLY ALUMNI
OF THE
PENNSYLVANIA STATE NORMAL SCHOOL
AT
SLIPPERY ROCK:
THE FIRST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS, 1890-1915
and
SELECTED ORAL HISTORIES
OF
SLIPPERY ROCK UNIVERSITY ALUMNI
by
Donald S. Kelly
Professor Emeritus
History Department
Slippery Rock University
George T. Force
Professor
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
PREFACE
This Slippery Rock University Centennial research project is
divided into two parts. Part I is devoted to a study of the early
alumni of Slippery Rock University. An early annual catalog of
the institution constitutes the primary source of information
about the people who graduated from the Normal School between 1890
and 1915. Based on the information in the catalogue, a
quantitative profile is drawn of some of the characteristics of
the graduates.
Part II presents twelve oral histories of people with close
ties to Slippery Rock University. The oral histories were given
by eleven graduates and one employee of the institution. The
eleven graduates with their graduation years are: Hazel Armstrong
(1925), Joseph Frazier (1929), Oliver Gordon (1925), Marian
Hartley (1933), Howard Headland (1906), Dora Johnson (1916),
Donald Kelly (1956), Carl Laughner (1949) and Norma Laughner
(1948), Sally Lennox (1959), and Margaret Nelson (1920). The
twelfth oral history is by Carl Woodling, a longtime employee of
the institution.
This project could not have been completed without the able
help and assistance of a number of people. The profile of the
early alumni would not have been completed without the efforts of
Amy Griswold, Steve Nobels, and Jill Thomas, student workers in
the History Department at Slippery Rock University who coded most
of the data on which the profile is built. We extend our
appreciation to these students.
Several persons conducted the oral histories. Dr. James
Mennel of the SRU History Department interviewed Joseph Frazier,
Dr. Joseph Riggs of the SRU Communication Department interviewed
Donald Kelly, and Dr. Robert Watson, SRU Dean of Academic Services
interviewed Howard Headland. Ms. Shirley Cubbison interviewed
Carl Woodling and Ms. Peggy Mershimer interviewed Hazel Armstrong;
Shirley and Peggy conducted their interviews representing the
Slippery Rock Heritage Association. The remaining interviews were
conducted by Dr. Donald Kelly.
In all cases, of course, the oral histories had to be
transcribed. Mrs. Donna McKee, History Department Secretary, not
only contributed countless hours transcribing the histories, but
also supervised the student workers who contributed to the
project. Our sincere appreciation is extended to all of these
persons and especially to Donna for her conscientious and
professional assistance.
Donald S. Kelly
George T. Force
A Profile of the Early Alumni
of the Pennsylvania State Normal School at
Slippery Rock:
the First Twenty-five Years, 1890 to 1915
Donald S. Kelly
History Department
Slippery Rock University
INTRODUCTION.
George T. Force
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
Besides placing great value on the family and
the church, education was given a high priority among the settlers
of the Slippery Rock, Pennsylvania, area from the earliest days
(Long and Heintzelman, 5).
Between 1857 and 1887 at least four
attempts were made by members of the community to establish
"academies" or college level institutions in Slippery Rock.
The
area residents' enthusiam for higher education probably reflects,
as much as anything, the culture of the Scots-Irish, the
predominant ethnic group of the region.
In their Ulster homeland,
the Scots-Irish were accustomed to the ideal of universal
education supported by taxation. In accord with this value,
Wayland Dunaway, the noted Pennsylvania historian, attributes to
the Scots-Irish the establishment of more educational academies
than any other group in the state (Dunaway, 274 and 303).
A permanent institution of higher education was realized in
Slippery Rock as a consequence of the adoption of the Normal
School Act in 1857.
This law divided the state into twelve
districts and authorized private citizens in a district to finance
and construct a Normal School for the purpose of teacher education
or preparation.
Each Normal School was to have at least ten acres
of land, dormitory space for three hundred students, a minimum of
six professors, and to be administered by a board of trustees
. « > •
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"
1
l"
• ;
ratified by the Commonwealth of
would be recognized and certin
y
Pennsylvania.
The first Normal School was established in 1859 in
miersville, Pennsylvania (Dunaway, 663).
Thirty years later in
March, 1889, the Pennsylvania State Normal School at Slippery Rock
was established in the eleventh district.
In 1890, the first
class of eleven students graduated.
Since its founding, the Normal School at Slippery Rock has
evolved and changed in countless ways.
Three major changes are
worthy of mention. The first major change occurred in 1916 when
the school became a state-owned institution of higher education.
Between 1889 and 1911, the Normal School at Slippery Rock operated
essentially as a private institution (as did the other Normal
Schools throughout the state) albeit under state mandated
guidelines.
In 1911, however, the Commonwealth began the process
by which the Normal Schools would be purchased from their private
stockholders or investors and become state-owned properties.
The
transfer of ownership to the state by the stockholders of the
Normal School at Slippery Rock occurred in February, 1916,
(Watson, 32).
Its legal status as a state-owned institution of
higher education has continued to the present day.
The second
major change concerns its name. The Normal School became the
State Teachers College at Slippery Rock in 1927 when it graduated
it first four year students (Watson, 57).
It was renamed Slippery
Rock State College in 1960 to reflect its change from a
-2-
predominantly teacher education college to a multipurpose
institution of higher education (Watson, 118).
Most recently, its
name was changed to Slippery Rock University on July 1, 1983, when
Act 188 of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania went into effect.
By
this act, the university became one of fourteen members of the
state-owned State System of Higher Education.
The third and final
change is reflected in the institution's general growth and
expansion.
Today, Slippery Rock University has a campus of over
600 acres with more than 55 buildings; it has about 800 employees
of whom approximately 400 are professors; it enrolls more than
7,400 students most of whom are Pennsylvania residents, but some
of whom come from 36 states and 56 foreign countries; and the
university annually graduates between 900 and 1000 students who
have majored in one of the more than 70 baccalaureate and 30
masters level degree programs.
Our interest, of course, is not in the present, but in the
past.
The focus of this research is on the alumni from the
Classes of 1890 through 1915 of the Pennsylvania State Normal
School at Slippery Rock.
Our interest derives primarily from the
centennial birthday of the Normal School, a 100th birthday
celebration that is occurring during the 1989-90 academic year and
which provides a fitting setting for an examination of the
institution's early alumni.
Specifically, our purpose is to
present a profile of the early alumni and, by doing so, to
contribute in a small way to the history of the Pennsylvania State
Normal School at Slippery Rock.
METHODOLOGY.
One cliche about auctions or "yard sales" is
that one person's junk is another's treasure.
The cliche proved
true when the Twenty-Eighth Annual Catalogue of the Pennsylvania
State Normal School at Slippery Rock was purchased at auction for
about $.25.
reasons.
The Catalogue became our treasure for several
Foremost is that the Catalogue contains a variety of
information of historical interest about the early years of the
Slippery Rock Normal School.
Much of the historical information
is timely as the institution entered it 100th birthday
celebration.
Another reason for prizing the Catalogue is that it
contained not only a listing of the members of the graduating
classes from 1890 to 1915, but also reported several items of
information about each alumnus.
Similiar to other editions, the Twenty-Eighth Annual
Catalogue contains an Alumni Register which provides probably as
complete a listing of the alumni of the Normal School as can be
found.
In addition to the name of each class member, several
other items of information are given for each alumnus.
First,
since the register is organized by class, the year of graduation
is known.
Second, the marital status of the female alumni is
known because the register gives both the maiden and married
names; unfortunately, the register does not report whether the
male alumni are married or unmarried.
Third, the register
provides information on the city, state, and country of residence
of the alumni.
Fourth, if an alumnus was known to be deceased,
the register gives the year of death.
reports the occupation for the alumni.
Finally, the register
Obviously, these items of
information were current when the Catalogue was published.
-4-
In addition to the recorded items of information, two other
items, the gender and the Pennsylvania county of residence of the
alumni, could be established.
Gender was determined from the
first name and/or the marital status of an alumnus or from a
combination of these items.
Indeed, in only sixteen cases did
this procedure preclude determining the gender of an alumnus,
e.g., when the given first name (or second name, if given) did not
clearly indicate gender, when the person's initials were given, or
when a combination of information clearly did not indicate gender.
The Pennsylvania county of residence was determined by locating
the Pennsylvania city of residence in the appropriate county.
This procedure was successful in all but 152 cases.
Once the information items were determined, a codebook was
constructed and the data about each alumnus were quantified.
Besides a unique identifier, nine items of information were
recorded for each alumnus. These data were analyzed by using the
frequencies and crosstabs subroutines in the SPSS-X statistical
package.
The results from these routines allow us to draw a
group profile of the early alumni of the Pennsylvania State Normal
School at Slippery Rock.
PROFILE OF THE ALUMNI.
A partial profile of the early alumni
of the Normal School at Slippery Rock can be drawn by reviewing
the few social characteristics on which there is information.
Attention is then directed to the variation in the sizes of the
graduating classes.
Finally, information is presented about the
places of residence and the occupations of the alumni.
Social Characteristics.
Between 1890 and 1915, 2,597
-5-
students became alumni of the Pennsylvania State Normal School at
Slippery Rock.
The vast majority of the alumni were women.
the 2,581 alumni for whom
Of
gender could be established, 2060 or
79% were women and 521 or 20% were men.
was composed entirely of women.
Indeed, the class of 1890
In the following year, 1891, four
males graduated from the Normal School.
The distribution of males
to females is to be expected, perhaps, in a teacher education or
preparation college.
Based on information from the Alumni
Register, 621 (30%) of the female alumni did marry.
Unfortunately, because the year in which they married is not
reported, we cannot determine whether they were married before,
while attending, or after graduation.
Also, no information is
available about the marital status of the male alumni, but it is
likely that a large percentage of the males probably were married
when the Alumni Register was published. Finally, the number of
living alumni far exceeds the number of deceased alumni.
Of the
alumni, 2500 (96%) were alive at the time the Alumni Register
information was collected and/or published and, in fact, four
classes, 1903, 1911, 1914, and 1915 reported no deceased members.
Class Size.
The number of graduates in each class and the
percentage of the size of each class to the total number of
graduates are reported in Table 1.
As can be seen, the smallest
graduation class, with eleven members, was the 1890 class and the
largest, with 258 members, graduated in 1913.
It would be
pleasing, of course, to report that the Normal School experienced
steady, sustained growth in the number of its graduates during its
early years.
Such is not the case, however.
-6-
An examination of
Ln
the number of members in each graduating class indicates two
fairly distinct cycles and, perhaps, the beginning of a third
cycle during which the size until the number of graduates peaks.
A significantly smaller class graduates in the next year which
ushers in the beginning of new cycle.
Table 1. The Number of Slippery Rock Normal School
Graduates by Graduation Year, 1890 to 1915.
(N - 2,597)
Year
Number of
Graduates
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901
1902
11
12
33
53
58
75
111
91
110
106
144
112
153
%
Year
.4
.5
1.2
2.0
2.2
2.9
4.3
3.5
4.2
4.1
5.5
4.3
5.9
1903
1904
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
1911
1912
1913
1914
1915
Number of
Graduates
25
55
63
85
93
144
153
165
189
172
258
38
88
%
1.0
2.1
2.4
3.3
3.6
5.5
5.9
6.4
7.3
6.6
9.9
1.5
3.4
The first cycle begins, obviously, in 1890 when eleven
students graduated and ends in 1902 when 153 students graduated.
Overall, this time period shows the number of graduates increasing
slowly, but steadily between 1890 and 1896, fluctuating over the
next five years through 1901, and reaching a peak in 1902.
The
second cycle begins in 1903, when only 25 students graduated,
shows a consistent increase in the number of graduates each year,
with the exception of 1912, and peaks in 1913 when 258 students
became alumni.
The third cycle, for which only two years of data
are available, begins in 1914 when 38 students graduated, shows an
-7-
increase in the number of graduates in 1915 and, thus, reflects
initially at least the beginning of another cycle.
While some of the fluctuations in the cycles, and
particularly in the latter years of the first cycle, may be
explained partially by fee changes, the withdrawal from school by
some of the members of a class, and even natural disasters
(Watson, 22), the abrupt end to each cycle can be traced mainly to
changes in the number of years of required study.
During the
1890s, to be able to teach in the common schools of Pennsylvania,
a person had to complete successfully a two-year elementary
program.
As academic standards at the Normal School increased,
particularly in the form of additional coursework, only the best
prepared students were able to complete their studies in two
years.
In 1902, therefore, a third year was added to the
students' course of study. This change effectively reduced the
number of graduates in the class of 1903.
The same type of change
occurred in 1910 when a fourth year of study was added.
In this
instance, however, students already enrolled were allowed to
complete the three year course of study; hence, the larger sized
graduation classes between 1911 and 1913 and the abrupt downward
change in the size of the 1914 class.
Simply stated, therefore,
changes in the number of years of required study meant that fewer
students were eligible for graduation in 1903 and in 1914.
Residence.
The Alumni Register also provides information on
the place of residence for most of the alumni.
In particular,
information on the city, state, and, if the alumni resided outside
the United States, country of residence is given.
-8-
Information on
the state in which the alumni was living is presented in Table 2.
Of the 2,492 alumni for whom the place of residence could be
established, seven lived in a foreign country, one resided in the
District of Columbia, and the remaining 2,484 lived in the
continental United States.
The foreign countries of residence of
the Normal School alumni were Brazil, Canada, Egypt, what is now
Israel, Korea, the Phillipines, and what is now Thailand.
Of the
198 (8%) alumni who left Pennsylvania, 112 or 56% had moved to
either Ohio, New York, or California.
We do not know, of course,
how soon after graduation the alumni migrated to the other states
or to a foreign country.
Table 2.
State
The State of Residence of Slippery Rock Normal School
Alumni, 1890 to 1915. (N — 2,597)
Alumni
Arizona
California
Colorado
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Maryland
ts
Massachusetts
1
20
6
2
8
3
3
4
1
2
4
Alumni
State
Michigan
Minnesota
Missouri
Montana
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
N.C.
N.D.
Ohio
Oklahoma
4
2
2
6
3
1
23
1
2
69
9
State
Alumni
4
Oregon
2285
PA
1
Texas
2
Utah
1
Virginia
8
Washington
6
West Virginia
1
Wisconsin
1
D.C.
Out-of-Country 7
105
Unknown
By far, however, most of the alumni, 2,285 or 92%, continued
to reside in Pennsylvania.
Because the number of alumni who
remained in Pennsylvania is so large, it is appropriate to
identify Where in Pennsylvania they established residence.
To do
this, the Pennsylvania city of residence, of which 412 distinct
cities were declared, was used to establish the Pennsylvania
county of residence of the alumni.
information.
Table 3 presents this
The Pennsylvania county of residence could be
determined for 2,133 or 93% of the 2,285 alumni who made
Pennsylvania their home after graduating from the Normal School.
Normal School alumni established residence in at least 37 of the
67 counties of Pennsylvania and 81% of the Pennsylvania alumni
resided in one of five counties: Allegheny, Beaver, Butler,
Lawrence, or Mercer.
Based on this finding, there is little
question that the Normal School alumni provided, as it continues
to do so today, the region in which it is located with a
substantial proportion of the area's professional personnel.
Table 3.
The Pennsylvania County of Residence of Slippery Rock
Normal School Alumni, 1890 to 1915. (N - 2,597)
County
Allegheny
Armstrong
Beaver
Bedford
Blair
Butler
Cambria
Carbon
Centre
Chester
Clarion
Clearfield
Crawford
Alumni
573
76
122
1
3
485
16
1
1
1
11
1
77
Occupation.
County
Alumni
Dauphin
Delaware
Erie
Fayette
Forest
Franklin
Greene
Huntingdon
Indiana
Jefferson
Lackawana
Lancaster
Lawrence
2
3
18
19
4
1
9
1
13
6
1
1
255
County
Alumni
Lebanon
1
McKean
2
Mercer
302
Philadelphia 2
Schuykill
1
Somerset
3
Venango
57
Warren
16
Washington
67
Wayne
1
Westmoreland 87
Unknown
152
The final characteristic of the alumni of the
Slippery Rock Normal School to be examined is their declared
occupation.
Table 4 reports information on the occupations of the
alumni.
-10-
The information in Table 4 leaves little if any
doubt that
the Slippery Rock Normal School was fulfilling its primary purpose
to prepare teachers for the public schools.
Sixty-six percent of
the alumni, reported that they were members of the education
profession either as a teacher, an administrator, a professor, or
were continuing their education as a student.
While many of these
alumni did report that they were teaching in a particular school
area or community, only a few of the alumni indicated the specific
area in which they were teaching, e.g.. music or elocution.
For
the vast majority of the teaching alumni who gave no such
indication, we are probably safe in assuming that they were
teaching a variety of subjects at several grade levels.
Table 4.
Occupations of Slippery Rock Normal School Alumni,
1890 to 1915. (N - 2,5*/;
Occupation
Alumni
Alumni
Occupation
Business/Commerce
Agriculture
sinking
Commercial
Industry
journalism
1717
Education
nfinftt
Teacher, general (1600
Teacher, specific (
Administrator
(0)
Professor
)• '
Student
>
69
Ministry
Professional
Government
Unknown/Not Given
7
Alumni
95
(-J)
<»>
(56)
(26)
(2)
33
676
While teacher education was the focus of education at
slippery Rock Normal School, it is apparent also that a Slippery
Rock education provided a stepping stone into a variety of other
jobs and professions.
or
Although considerably smaller in number,
3% of the alumni were doctors, dentists, attorneys, or had
-11-
•
1
careers.
Another 4% of the alumni were
^ industrial worlds of the
other professiona
employed in the business, coimnerc
•
Mch they lived.
communities in which th y
,
Smaller numbers of the alumni
a.u~i. i. 1.."«»>
S""° ""
+• manv of the "no occupation" alumni weie
of women graduates that many
, . f pxecutive officers of households,
gainfully employed as chief execu
CONCLUSIONS.
The purpose of this research is to develop a
profile of the early alua.nl of the Pennsylvania Normal School at
Slippery Rock.
The characteristics of the alumni which make up
the profile are derived from information reported in the TwentyEighth Annual Catalogue or alumni register of the school.
Several general findings can be reported.
First, in terms of
their social characteristics, the overwhelming majority (79%) of
the Normal School alumni were women.
Indeed, based on the alumni
information several classes had no male graduates.
Second, the
student population--as reflected by the number of students who
graduated--grew somewhat unevenly.
That is, the number of alumni
increased each year until it fell dramatically.
While several
explanations for this growth pattern can be offered, a reasonable
explanation involves changes that were made in the curriculum.
Third, little migration is reported by the alumni.
Fewer that 200
of the alumni moved to states other than Pennsylvania.
Furthermore, a predominant number of alumni reside either in the
county in which the school is located or in adjacent counties.
Finally, in terms of the occupations of the alumni, it can be
-12-
stated unequivocally that the Normal School at Slippery Rock was
fulfilling its purpose to prepare teachers for the public
That is, two-thirds of the alumni were serving in some capacity as
professional educators.
REFERENCES
Dunaway, Wyland F. £
of PennsyWania.
Prentice-Hall, Inc, 1935.
New York:
Long, 01M - «U»'S£'lS£°£^"7
Rock Borough and Vicin
y.
Q R Q -1939
^tf§h^l
A History Compiled
s
— Rock'
Pennsylvania.
Watson^Robert'
^
A E E N R I fltion. 1982
-13-
Slippery Rock University
An Early Alumni Profi e
and
Selected Oral Histories
Selected Oral Histories
of
Slippery Rock University
Donald S. Kelly
Professor Emeritus
History Deparment
Slippery Rock University
INTRODUCTION.
edited by
George T. Force
Professor
Political Science Department
Slippery Rock University
The oral histories of Slippery Rock University
were collected as a project for the centennial celebration of the
university which occurred in 1989.
Ten of the interviews that led
to the oral histories were conducted during that year.
The
interviews of Howard Headland and Joseph Frazier had been recorded
several years earlier by Robert Watson and James Mennell,
respectively, for other research projects.
The content of these
two oral histories, however, warranted their inclusion in this
project.
The cassette tape interviews were held in a variety of
locations and often in less than ideal conditions.
The interviews
were conducted where the alumnus was residing--at home, in an
office, at a retirement home, or in a nursing home.
Often the
interviews were interruptued--by a knock at the door or by the
ringing of a telephone or by the need of a professional to attend
to a patient.
Despite the advanced age of several of the alumni
who were interviewed, all were alert and articulate.
An element
that may not be as evident in the printed version of the oral
histories, but which is extremely clear in the voice version of
the histories is the genuine affection for Slippery Rock Normal
School, State College, or University that was expressed by each
alumnus.
-14-
„
».—«»
,
t difficult phase Cf this project as performed
Perhaps the most ditlicui f
M
decipher
P—c,d
i.
unclearly, and guess at the prope
celling of unfamiliar surnames
p
the school. When the editors
of persons from the early years of the scno
worked at "editing" the transcriptions but were unable to
determine either the pronunciation of a word or the spelling of a
name with complete accuracy, they chose simply to insert a
question mark rather than to resort to guessing.
We apologize for
any errors that remain.
The alumni who were interviewed were chosen partly because of
their accessibility, partly because their years as students at
Slippery Rock were during the first half of this century, and
partly because the experiences of some of the alumni as employees
of the school would add richly to its history.
It is sincerely
hoped that the oral histories will be enjoyed by other alumni from
all eras and that they will trigger in each reader fond memories
of "The Rock."
-15-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Howard Headland
Interviewer: Robert Watson
RW
The last time, Mr. Headland, you had told me that you knew all but,
all the Presidents of the Normal School and Teachers College,
the exception of Dr. Morrow and Dr. Carter.
HH:
That's right.
RW
And I thought, if I could tonight, I would get some very Phonal
tvne of information of your recollections of Dr. Maltby, Pr°*
Mohler and Dr Eisenberg--anything that you remember about these
people'at all^ * I thought I woild try to get your recollectrons.
HH-
Well
then
of course, when I registered, Dr. Maltby was the
they called him. And, of course, I was a young krd from the
EliS
instructor or teacher in t ose su j
questions.
="-IrtsSs•OTS-js==
n
ts.
And then I
a
Slippery Rock.
RW:
That's right.
HH:
I was really not succeeding him, but endeavoring to do my job of
instructing.
RW:
registered^at SHppe^RoXl"^ Noma! S^hool^r'the first time
in 1901.
HH
Yes.
RW
Is that so?
HH
Yes.
The 28th of March to be exact.
Well, that, OK.
I quit the country
^nd^hflived^/our''horned
anftaught our home school, ihich was really at the corner of our
form
nn the highway.
-16-
RW:
Where was your farm, then?
ffl:
Do
you know ^ere Ccf—
RW:
No
I don't, I don t.
tT»
Hve
^
ffl;
Its on the old perry Highway, 7 .il»
1W
Oh, OK, OK, yes.
HH:
RW:
HH:
.
Evans
City.
The village is known as Hendersonville.
I
X know,
KIlvw » OK.
t-rail because that was the, supposedly
^d trail °traditionally so, fro, Pittsburgh to Franklin. Its
°Sor
this part'of it here now is Route 8.
RW:
HH:
RW:
Right, right, that's correct.
lived.
h
in
OK, I know exactly where your father
OK
of course I was born in Allegheny County just across the line,
Marshall Township, which is now Uarrendale area.
Right.
HH:
and take care of the family, under his mother s direction. He was
next to the oldest, and his older brother lived on another farm.
And so I was born there in an old log house. And my mother s
mother a n d father lived just across t h e field, o n II : t h a t
bought in 1843, when they came to this country. And they held that
farm until 1913, or something like that. Son succeeded to it.
RW:
And then you said that you had come from the country school to the
Normal School, and you were how old were you at the time. 17 . . .
HH:
17, it had been my 18th year. We had no high school near at that
time, so there was my parent's wanted me to have an education so
they sent me off to Normal School to get the equivalent of high
school, and I got better than high school, because I found that I
could do the course easily enough and make 90s, so I took an extra
one when I returned. I had enough to enter as a sophomore at
Mt.Union College. And I took extra there and after one year I
transferred to Grove City and entered the senior class, and
graduated that required 330 hours at that time and I got 331.
RW:
In what year then did you go to Mt. Union.
HH:
1907 and '08 and then here 1908 and '09.
RW:
At Grove City, right?
-17-
HH:
Yeah. In those days we didn't have the big lecture for commencement
and well of course, at Slippery Rock, they selected about a dozen
of us so-called honors students to make an oration or recital or
some sort at commencement for the program. And the same was
here at Grove City, so I was elected to do that here also.
RW:
Well, that's very nice. Were you a commencement speaker at your
graduation then at Slippery Rock?
HH:
How's that?
RW:
Were you the commencement speaker at Slippery Rock?
HH:
Yeah, I was one of the ten or twelve, I've forgotten just how many,
and I was the same here.
RW
above the call of duty, so to speak?
HH
Wel-l, I suPP°^ since l was ^^^the^nglish work from grammar,
with a major in English, i
J y
history that was
aassRW:
English.
HH:
RW:
That's good.
i rjsvchology and methods and oh we had to
And then of course we'ha py
SV
thing go by
uo
ha(
U
t
I don't blame you.
Now
going back to
S:rr^d"ust- ^lecturer,
HH:
^ recall?
or was he somewhat boring.
Well, I wouldn't say^® ^S* He^ould^tand*there in front of the
remember him in Psy<*°l s^;k
a question or anything, and then
class and lect]**e»
. . eves shut or maybe he was looking out an
perhaps he would have hrs eye^shut,^^
^
^of
;s.-r?bS
™s:
»*
h*
k*rt
it down to our level.
RW:
I-ve read In two or three different sources, that Dr.
-18-
Maltby was a
HH:
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH:
of humor, but he also had somewhat of a
person who had a good sense of humo
temper.
i
i-hat it was in our senior year and
Yes, oh yes
As an
old South Hall boys
the juniors bad put a ti g F
remember it.
dormitory, on the bell tower.
j
I remember it, right.
T « V P R entered in that kind
And some of the senior b °y®' t Q
u p there, at it, and
were going through the
to
h h i m a s he was going
followed him up and he
a n d bruised his hand
the window and he hit cne UJ - XV ,
much! and didn't touch the student at all.
of stuff,
he
through
very
I bet he had some words to say about that.
1-vr, n r three times when he was riled up
Yeah. Y e a b '
that**^Ordinarily he was modest and quiet. And he
in a case like t
.
.
h
h e w a s conducting chapel, when
was a little radical s °" e "™"^He would explode ! little bit
! ^Cld^r^occ^ionally iS the diningroom he
had his table off in the corner, like that was the corner and the
dining room was here, and we never had a prayer but he would tap a
bell, and that meant silence. And if there wasn t silence you
heard from him. And then he would tap the bell and it was time to
eat. And if there were any particular announcement he would make
it at that time because most of the students were in the two
dormitories, and of course the local students lived at home.
RW:
We were talking about Dr. Eisenberg and he was there, he was there
for . . .
HH:
17 years as I recall.
RW:
I remember seeing one picture, Mr. Headland, on the picture of the
on the front of the ???? magazine, ???? newspaper, which you said
you had been the original editor. A picture of Dr. Eisenberg and
William Jennings Bryan.
HH:
Yes.
RW:
OK. Do you remember anything about, did you happen to listen to Mr.
Bryan's lecture?
HH:
Oh yes. That was the second time I had heard it. I had him here at
Grove City when I was a student, and that is when he delivered his
famous lecture, The Prince of Peace. And in the meantime, I had
bought a copy of it and when he came to Slippery Rock I said Mr.
Bryan will you autograph your Prince of Peace. Gladly. In a way I
had sort of an introduction to him. He had been lecturing in China
where my uncle was a professor in the University of Peking and
uncle had entertained him, and I had that contact, and I made use
of it.
'
1917 to 1934.
And then . . .
Bryan was there to lecture.
-19-
When, then you mentioned your uncle.
. . ?
Would this be your father's .
My father's next younger brother, yeah. And he was educated at Mt.
Union and Boston University Theological School. And as he was then
ordained as a Methodist minister but he spent his life in teaching.
He took sick in 19, he went to China in 1890 and he was home during
1900, missed the Boxer Rebellion. He went back in the fall of
1900, the Rebellion was over, and then he taught till 1907,
contracted ?. That's a very serious affliction of the intestines, a
tropical disease, and they shipped him home, expecting him to die
but he recovered, lectured for a good many years in the Chautauqua
circuit and in 1914 he was elected to the faculty of his Alma
Mater, Mt. Union, and taught till he was 80.
Well that's something.
He lived to be 83, except about a week short. My oldest daughter,
he put her through the college. She lived with him and did the
housework.
Then, you said that you actually had an introduction then to William
Jennings Bryan.
Yeah.
Well, that was something. How did the students receive Mr.
when he spoke at Slippery Rock? Do you remember anything?
Bryan
Oh very very cordially, and enthusiastically. He talked there on
the political situation. We were sort of hoping that he would
repeat his Prince of Peace, but maybe it was because this was a
state school maybe that wouldn't fit in too well. I never knew
why.
OK.
Is it running alright?
Its running just fine now. Good. Well then, you got your Prince of
Peace copy autographed by Mr. Bryan.
And I passed it on to one of my children. I don't know which one.
I had a good many books autographed by authors and I discovered
there's no place here to keep them.
Right. I don't blame you. You know there's one, I've more or less
come across a book, through my father, that Dr. Maltby had
written. One on the flag of the United States, and Old Glory I
think was the name of the book, and its autographed in the inside
by Dr. Maltby. But I don't know to whom that was given in my
family, and Dad isn't quite sure either, so I'm going to have to
ask my grandmother.
-20-
^ A a-\ 1 of bis books, but I hadn t got
, j T iust maybe I bad all
and Dr
Murphy had
Well, I bad,
J aUtograpbs at th
and j asked hi
interf"
t
edited it
ofsomething8
^he didn-t do a
ry
l"ob of it. I liked to
^ printed name there
have them 'autographed ""^^and'inexperienced when Dr. Murphy
and the autograph. I
y^ what x wanted.
and I didn t
about Dr.
Well then, do you
Eisenberg, when he
leave Slippery Rock because of a
left Slippery ROCK,
particular reason.
,
i
fn pet some good roads, ana one
yes some of the, well, he 'wor ^
across to Keister, he
road that run from S"PP®7trustees owned a farm over there, and
opposed it, and one ri thetru
say that was the real reason
why'he'wasn't°elected S another post.
That's picked it up quite well.
Now will you be comfortable there.
Is that a good comfortable chair.
[H:
Yeab, it's very good.
nr
£causeeofa£af
Fi senberg migbt not bave been rehired
particular incident with the building of the one
road.
Some of the trustees were opposed to it.
And now, by this time, it would have been 1934.
Right.
And let's see, it would bave been strictly a State Teacher's
College then and the state would have probably then had all of the
control of the Board of Trustees.
HH:
I presume so, yes.
RW:
What do you remember about the college during the depression?
you remember much?
HH:
During the 1930s?
RW:
Yes.
HH:
The, well at first we got a 5% cut in salary, in 1932 or '33. Then
the next year we got a 10% cut. And that stood until the 1930s
sometime and we were, the former salary was restored and then we
got our annual increase until we reached the maximum. And I
reached my maximum along about 1940 I guess.
RW:
Well now, when the first 5% cut came, was that under Dr.
-21-
Do
Maltby
er, Dr. Eisenberg, did that
No, that as I recall was under Dr. Miller.
That would have been sometime then after . . .
Between 1934 and 1940.
And we had six years of ?
OK. Is there anything that stands out in your mind about Dr.
Eisenberg, especially, that might be significant to record in
history?
Oh yeah.
thing.
He was very active in the Methodist Church, that for one
Well, that's a good thing to know.
And he was active about the community in making addresses.
He was a real speaker then.
Yes, he was a real speaker, able speaker. He spoke, he had a
definite outline that he followed. He didn't say it was an
outline, but you sense it, as he mentioned his headings, you might
say.
Right, well then if he would have been a qualified speaker, did he
at that time still present the chapel proceedings, in other words,
did he still have chapel that the students went to.
Oh yes, and every Sunday evening we had a regular evening worship
service, and he would speak a number of times during the year, and
some of the others of us who were religiously inclined would have ?
teach term or something like that. I would speak two or three
times every year.
OK. Well that is a good thing to know, because often times a
President or a principal of an institution may not be as good a
speaker as others, and those who are good speakers you want to make
sure that you remember that, and qualify it as such. Then in 1934
when Dr. Eisenberg was not reelected, did they have Dr. Miller in
mind to bring in?
I could not answer that. He was at that time, I'm not sure, he had
been principal at a high school, in some town southeast of
Pittsburgh.
Down in the Indiana area, maybe.
Somewhere there. I just at the moment I've forgotten, but he had a
number of years of experience. And he had already earned his
Doctors degree from Pitt as I recall.
Then he applied for the job just as other applicants did?
-22-
HH:
r p r got very much of an enlightenment
I believe so. Of course we neverg
^ any of our own
on things like that. I don t thl ^
^ ^ an uncl
faculty that were hopeful. *° '
And 1
d in it at one time.
w
n
cousin, Arthur Vincent ^J; £®^ty members there were had much
don't know whether any other faculty
' ' '
OK
all
Well then, Dr. Miller came in, you said you
RH:
^TnLkna^or an expression for him.
HH:
Yes.
RW:
Little Charlie??
HH:
Yeah.
Little Charlie.
He was
I don't ^PP°*e ^/^ouirsa^he^asn^^too big^'
. » * j « i
e
. »h....
of the Board never sentenced him.
RW:
The judge was President of the Board of Trustees here in Slippery
Rock?
HH:
Yeah.
RW:
Well, then what do you remember what he was charged
HH:
Misfeasance and malfeasance, whatever that means.
RW:
Well then was he charged for these illegalities concerning a
particular area. Was it the student funds that was
HH:
No, I think it drew out of the purchase of material in connection
with Mrs. Emma Guffy Miller when she built some rather extensive
place out on her farm and that was part of it as it was sort of
brought out in the testimony.
RW:
OK. In other words, then, what period of time would this have been
when he was charged?
HH:
Well that was ? It had to be the later years of the 1930s.
RW:
1930s.
HH:
The depression was on at the worse.
RW:
What did the faculty think of this?
HH
Well, he didn't have too many friends on the faculty. There were
too many that were really bigger men then he was. That's where he
got his Little Charlie idea.
Judge John W. Wilson, of Butler.
OK
-23-
That's interesting to know. Then this is actually Dr. Morrow left,
the first President left as you were saying yesterday, possibly,
not of his own regard.
No, No.
He got into some particular trouble.
Yes, that was before my knowledge of Slippery Rock, and he went back
to his former job in Pittsburgh.
And then Dr. Maltby had to leave, then Dr. Eisenberg has to leave,
and now we're talking about another one had to leave, and so the
brief six year term that Dr. Miller held that was ironically the
major building program of the college, was it not?
Yeah.
1937, '38, '39 period?
Uh, Uh.
Was he instrumental in these buildings being built, or was another
member of the administration or faculty more instrumental than Dr.
Miller?
Well, he built North Hall, 1938. And that seemed to go over very
well. At that time that was a real satisfactory building for the
rooms and dining room and social room, reception hall, was very
satisfactory.
Its a beautiful building. Well then, you, during the term of Dr.
Miller, another important event in the history of the college,
would have been the fire of the old North Hall.
Yeah, the fire in 1937. It occurred on Homecoming Day and I've
forgotten just what date that was, I guess it was in late October.
OK. The papers that I've been reading have said, I believe, was
October 16th.
Maybe.
Or 17th, sometime around in there, and I read several different
accounts, and a real reason for the fire was never pinpointed,
however, some people said it was an ox roast.
Well, at the time they were roasting the beef for the Homecoming
luncheon, and the one report was that the grease has boiled over
and caught fire.
And that started the fire.
And that started the fire, and of course a lot of the old building
-24-
A nart of it was smeared over with
was original frame
brick, and old wood there
RW:
1888 it burned like paper,
Surely.
Yeah.
Well, then there were no casualties that you recall.
Purvis:sunr-a™.
•-
Km- rhev lost practically all their
,.
4-v>at- fiurinE or after the fire, that
Well, do you remember aching.
happened to the girls as far as
Xre di^the^live^then™ were X «&
The hoys were put out of South Hall, and many of the girls could
accomodate were taken in there.
RW:
Where did the boys go then?
HH:
. .
t fv,ink we had two of them in our home and
XLrXrX r-JtSttay. And then see the ^ f
i
r
s
t
f^^^errs^gon^:? right across from the
gymnasium on Main Street.
RW
OK.
Right, right.
HH
For the President and his family.
RW
OK. How long of a period of inconvenience was there before the
students were put back into a new dorm. Was a new dorm started,
the construction on a new dorm started right away or how long did
these boys live in the homes?
HH:
Well, let's see.
RW:
OK, go ahead.
HH:
They started to clear up the debris. Your grand uncle, I guess, Roy
Watson, bought a lot of the bricks and built a couple of houses out
of them, down on Elm Street and a lot of it was just carted down
into the area of the campus before you come to the present
? in
a depression there where it was dumped. Of course, there was only
a small basement in that old building, so there wasn't a whole lot
of debris to be taken away and then some junkman bought all the
refrigerators, the radiators and the piping, junk metal. And that
was soon carted away. Then they began excavating for the new
building. And as I recall they moved into it the next fall of '38.
In the meantime they built the President's residence and the
President moved in there, let's see, I think there was a third
building built back here.
They started to . . .
-25-
RW:
Hall^uilt :t%ha1tSmeL?brary
bUUt " th"
the S^-e
HH:
thehScfenceSHanlldinSS
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH:
RW:
HH
*"
at°Ut th6 Sa"e
OK. How about the Laboratory School?
tlm6' the Llbrary
and
Wasn't there a wing?
^iirSVri0n °f that Moratory School, was the Elementary
School and that was opened in '29.
OK.
And then they built the high school and in the meantime the old what
1
H°del Scho°1' 7 on the comer, that was used as the
aU
t*o tt
t T!° °? t?ree sections of it were college classes.
And then they built the high school, sort of northwest of the
elementary school, with the gymnasium along parallel with Elm
uooper Street.
In JaCt' I sti}1 Play basketball in that gymnasium, a couple
1
.,
® weeJ^» we play in the lab school gymnasium. Right. Well
actuallvSr*k^\ ? "*** ta^Gn int° the h°mes of townspeople, were
actually taken in for an entire year.
And the rest of that, let's see that was '37 and '38. I think thev
Z^utel" s'u™' faU °f '38 " 1 reC3U
I wouldn't be
RW''
exLnTp6^^6^078 ??Ved int° th6Se tOWn homes' and y°ur home for
example did the college pay you people for boarding these
students? Did you get any pay or remuneration?
HH:
jV' W?/KreJann'. 1 think $2-°° a week- If 1 remember rightly.
It would be $4.00 for the room. And then the next year we had
three faculty members.
RW
In your house?
HH
In our home.
RW
This will be, what is now the Alumni House?
HH
Yes.
RW
In the brick home?
HH:
They took two rooms on the third, second floor, then they used the
c°°r af 3 lou?ge* 1 don'C remember what they paid us for
that. So much a week. And they never had a key. We just let them
come and go, and we had a card for each one of them. Do you
remember the railing on the stairway?
RW:
Right.
Right?
Yes.
-26-
Tf they were standing up, that person was
^
HH:
iast one to turn a
card down, locked the door.
RW
Well, that's a good way of doing it.
HH:
Yeah.
RW
That probably worked very well.
HH
It worked perfectly.
RW
HH
RW:
HH:
RW:
ffl:
i
t-hat fire at North Hall.
That must have been a real shock, that
,
uah from it began to affect the slate on
Oh, it was, yes. And the
spraying up on that and
Old Main, and they finally got "water
^ ^ was an exciting?
prevented the building from catcning rr •
fo^thMe^women^tudents^who^ere^i^th^forStory'and seeingCall^
of their possessions going up in flame .
the0I^SatSthatatimeingAndtshenca^f over^o'our house5telephone
her folks. She was quite a site at the time.
I can imagine. Oh my. Well then, there was one other fire that
I've come across. 1928 I believe. An old, it was just a small
fire in the gymnasium, I think. One of the gymnasiums
It had a
picture of a bucket brigade of some of the women students who
helped to put this fire out. I don't think it was a very big ire,
I think it was just a small fire.
I was trying to recall of any situation like that.
don't.
At the moment I
I don't think it was a very big fire.
It couldn't have been, or I would have recalled it.
OK. Well, then, now we're in 1940, and little Charlie or Dr.
Miller was asked to leave and do you recall then what happened in
preparation for the new president, or was it pretty much by
application and then
1H:
Dale, Dale, my, maybe you recall.
W:
McMaster?
HH:
McMaster was, well he was a member of the Board of Trustees at
Indiana. He was principal of Johnstown Schools and he had wanted
to be President of Indiana but he was at the same time a member of
the board and they wouldn't let him. Then this happened and our
-27-
Slippery Rock Board took him up. He was graduated from Grove City
in the class of 1908, known in the community favorably, but within
a year he was messed up with
some finances, I never knew exactly what, and he was, the day he
was to go before the court, election day 1940?
RW:
Would that be 1941?
HH:
'41.
RW
Where did that take place?
HH
Right in the home there. The new residence of the president, and
his wife reported that he had had a heart attack and they got the
mortician from Jamestown to come and get his body. The question
came out, the answer came out that he put the bullet through his
head.
RW:
Well, then was his wife present when he shot himself or was she not
in the house?
HH:
She had gone into the library. You see, the southeast corner of the
home is the library, and that's where he performed the act.
RW
Well he was only there for what one and a half years?
HH:
A year and a quarter.
RW:
Year and a quarter.
HH
Just until the November election day.
RW
Well, then did not anyone ever find out why or what financial
problems he had?
HH
Oh I guess it was in regard to some loans and the like.
RW:
Personal loans to him or loans to the school?
HH
Sponsored I think. I don't know, of course there was never any
trial. He was dead, buried.
RW:
How did the faculty and students and other administrators feel about
this? Were they shocked? Was he a well-liked man?
HH:
Oh yes, it was a big shock to us.
RW:
Was he liked more than Dr. Miller by the faculty and
HH:
Well, yes. There was a sort of a sadness to it, that such a thing
could happen to a man passed middle age, a man who had stood high
in his community as Superintendent of Johnstown Schools. We
couldn't appreciate such an act. Of course, that's when Dr. ? was
the Dean, and very highly regarded, so two of us, Dr. Waldron and
He shot himself.
Do you remember?
-28-
It was the 2nd that year.
But ....
nr
I , I don't know whether you knew Dr.
RW:
HH:
Waldron or not.
I've seen his name occur several times.
s.
i-hp other day. And he and I went
I had a letterni^°m0f1the board in the meantime, Dr. Jarsman had
around to a number of ^
and requested the board to
been made to act. flnd
he was then made permanent
ss.ss.'snr.rtj£S: «
retirement age in 1946.
RW:
Well then, in 1941, between November and January of 1942, there was
no president, well no real president?
HH:
Dr. Jarsman was acting president.
RW:
Well acting
HH:
A man to act, yes
RW:
Fine.
HH:
Oh yes.
RW:
I guess you always have one person who doesn't like you.
HH:
He had a, rather pet dog, and he would take it out on leash. Finish
exercise ? walking by this particular one in an alley and he came
up and called him all sorts of an S.O.B. for leading a dog around.
RW:
Ah, well, that's ....
HH:
He was well, we knew him as a big mouth.
RW:
Was he, was this person, the big mouth, was he on the faculty?
HH:
No, he wasn't.
RW:
He was in the town?
HH:
He just lived in town.
^
HH:
RW:
OK.
Dr. Entz must have been a well-liked man.
He was very highly regarded by everybody but one person.
^42 tc^'46
St"^
S°°d.
Well then, Dr. Entz was president from
Yeah.
important?^0^ renle,nber
about
Dr. Entz that you think would be
HH:
the Spring semester*" that^^ia
over, well, from ^42 to
-29-
beginning of
^much
he retired at the
late Janua^-
RW:
OK.
HH:
The four years and a month that he served. Then it was a quiet, if
you'd known Dr. ?. Maybe you did, as a boy there.
RW:
No, No I didn't.
HH:
He was a man who didn't make a show of things. He was able. He had
an honorary doctor's degree and also an honorary one from Grove
City and he had spent his whole life in teaching and he had been,
let's see, where was he when he came here, I've forgotten now. He
had been there a number of years as Dean of Instruction and it was
sort of just a step on to be president. And he had a wife that was
quite acceptable socially, no children.
RW:
No children. Well then did, let's see.
died of when . . . .
HH:
Died in his infancy.
RW:
Well then Dr. Eisenberg had no children?
HH:
No.
RW:
Well then there's ....
HH:
Then Charlie Miller.
RW:
Did he have any children?
HH:
He had four sons and a daughter. And he and his wife are both
graduates of Allegheny. And Allegheny took him in, when he left
Slippery Rock, and I think most of his children then graduated at
Allegheny. I don't know what's happened to them. He's still
living as far as I know. His wife died, then he married his
secretary at Slippery Rock.
RW:
Well ....
HH:
And had another son. She was much younger than he. And as far as I
know he's still living. But he'll be, oh he'd be in his 80's
anyhow. He wasn't quite as old as I am, was.
RW:
I'm sure he's not in as good as physical health as you either.
HH:
Well. I question whether he is. And then he was followed, as I
said by Dr. Eisenberg or Dr. Houk and ? retired and took his
pension and moved back to his home community where he was born.
And Dr. Houk, Dale Houk.
RW:
Right.
HH:
Assistant County Superintendent of Allegheny County was selected.
Dr. Maltby had one son who
Only the adopted daughter, who lives up here at Sandy Lake
-30-
?
RW:
HH:
RW:
* v lpft of his own accord then. He had
Well then when Dr. ?
t! vesterday, that he was the only one
resigned and you mentioned her y
ngver had any force behind
to y-r knowledge,^ho had le£tstta
him to leave.
inac
ui
and fit into the community very well,
No, he was considered caPa^®!
od attender, good advisor.
A good churchman, but not active, g
well then he retired in '46.
Now did he then, you probably were
there a few more months.
I was there until the end of August '46.
Then you also were a faculty member when Dr. Houk was there?
yeah.
He had his freshman y-atJlippery *ock. Uved withMs
class
bu^I hid him in'a play, Charlie's Aunt
I coached a number
ofplays. I had been in a number as a student and I must have
gained some little reputation along that line.
RW:
I'm sure you did.
HH:
And so I was chosen three or four to train three or four different
plays as well as the commencement speakers.
RW:
OK
HH:
Everything alright?
RW:
Yeah, everything's fine.
HH:
And, of course, Dr. ? had given me resignation. They knew they had
already elected Dr. Houk to come right on to take over the first of
the semester.
RW:
Well, what was Dr. Houk like then. What type of a man was he as
compared to, you said that Dr. ? was fairly quiet and . .
HH:
Yeah.
RW:
. . . but very capable?
HH:
Well, he was a little more forceful. I wouldn't call him scholarly
He was rather an ordinary school man. And he served what, ten and
a half years as I recall, of course he retired, he served, he
served a half year while I was still on the faculty, well from
January to the end of August. I knew him very well. I called him
Dale. And we were always friendly. Oh, he was to see me here just
a few months ago. He and Joe, Joe, the undertaker.
RW:
Ligo.
HH:
Yeah.
What type of man was Dr. Houk?
They were here to see me.
-31-
I knew Joe quite well.
Well he
I Q /O ^V 1
^ funeral and I don't know what happened to Dale during
194.. the end well from January 1946. I never, of course I was
gone. I never knew what caused him to lose out. You'd have to set
&
somebody else from that period.
RW:
OK.
But, as far as you knew, Dr. Houk, did he have a Ph.D.
also,
HH:
Well.
RW:
As far as you knew that he was a fairly well accepted man into the
college community?
HH:
Yes.
RW:
I ve heard from a couple other people who knew Dr. Houk quite well
and said that he was a very accepted man and that he was most
responsible and as you said he was somewhat an ordinary school man
yet he always seemed to have the knack to do what was, what seemed
to be right at the time.
HH:
Yeah yeah. And he was the son of a preacher, and he was as I
thought a pretty good preacher's son. I knew his father. He was
the pastor at the church over in Hooker.
RW:
Oh yes, right, right.
HH:
I think he was born when his father was pastor at Bruin so he was a
native of the area too. He had had his first year at Slippery
Rock 1 think he had graduated from Park College, Missouri
And
then he got his doctorate at Pittsburgh, if I recall. He was well
enough educated but I don't know what happened.
RW:
Well I'll have to, I'm sure I could find a couple of people who had
worked with Dr. Houk.
HH:
I'll bet you Arthur Vincent would be able to give you some intimate
data on that.
RW:
OK.
HH:
I don't know who else.
RW
Did you know Arthur's wife Leila, Leila Vincent?
HH
Oh, I helped graduate her in 1917. I always greet her whenever I
meet her, and she always greets me. I was sorry for her that she
had that fall, crippled her. Has she gotten pretty well over that.
RW:
Yes, yes, I think she's gotten better.
HH:
That's good.
RW:
She's gotten better.
I thought so.
-32-
-w rheir first child was the kind of
It was a sort of handicap tha
^ she>s stm living.
person that she was, oris,
I don't know too much about them,
w
I assume yes.
1 001
? very well. I knew Norman his older
ffl; Then, of course, I knew Nev^^ hlgh school and then we
brother much bette5',
Petersburg,
in St.
hobnobbed very much down In
nf _v family, the Watsons, did you know?
IV:
Oh.
well, What members of my family,
ffl.
THP one that married the oldest
ffl:
^Smarried°? he £d a lot of stonework for me .
daughter
Graham.
What.
Graham.
No
Oh, what was, Will, Billy, William, his son was head of the
police force there. Oh, why can't I recall his name.
Not Sanderson?
What.
Sanderson.
No.
or Wicks?
Well, I know the Wicks too, they're related to the Watsons.
OK.
Oh, Kelly.
Kelly.
Yes, he was married to the oldest Watson girl.
Right.
And
And tl
then there was Fred.
Maybe he was dead before you came in?
Right.
tlZlh vrS' Ka11Z' 111611 there was the one that married Dr.
W?S dead before you "ere born.
rnnr!p Pof 2!
And then of
course Roy who was the storp.kppiior
-33-
RW.
Right.
OK.
Edwin Markham.
When did he come to Slippery Rock.
HH.
He was there, I don't know whether I can recall the year, but he was
there and lectured and read some of his poetry, and I had one of
his books of poems and he autographed it for me. That would be,
maybe I can recall, I had heard it, I was visiting my wife's uncle
and his wife in Lewisburg, and he was lecturing there and ?.
RW:
I didn't come across anything in the local newspaper. Maybe I
didn't find that article or that particular edition. Was this in
the 30s that he was there, 20s and 30s?
HH:
I would say along in the middle or later 30s. Of course, I don't
have that book anymore, or I could figure it out. I passed it
along with some of the others to some of the children. I was going
to say something else there. I don't have it.
RW:
I read where Robert Frost was also at the college at onetime.
you there?
HH:
No.
RW:
I'm not sure when that was. I think in the very late
'40s or early '50s. I'm not sure, but I don't recall that.
HH:
This was perhaps after I left. We did have, there were two brothers
[who were] lecturers, Charles and Thomas, they were North Carolina
boys, the one was, well we had both of them there, well, I don't
think of it now. We had some able lecturers there on the Lyceum,
five or six every winter, music or lectures.
RW:
What do you recall about, I keep reading about the complication
between two literary societies. The Bryan Literary Society and
what was the other's name.
HH:
Philomathea.
RW:
Philomathea, yeah. Did you have anything to do with
those at any time?
HH:
Oh yes. I was president of the Bryan twice in my junior and in my
senior year and I debated a couple of times.
RW:
Was there really that much competition between the two?
HH:
Quite a good deal, and yet it was friendly.
RW:
That's what I seem to understand.
HH:
Yes, it was a friendly competition.
and any scandal of any sort.
RW:
Well, I've come across some beautiful, engraved stationary and
beautiful engraved announcements from the Bryan and the
-34-
Were
We had our ? up to each other
j
come iust beautiful
Philomathea, inviting P"P£^%£w real pride in their literary
invitations and evidently
societies.
ffl:
.W:
^
yjell,
we
would have 100
Well they did. We paid $.25 a
k up a little money and we
or more mLbers. Well that would stack p
^ a
were careful in managing it. iney
^ terms then, and we
program at the beginning of each
bulletin board in the hall
had each society had a
"nrogram of the week each week,
of Old Main where we put up th P
nil be some of the major changes, as compared
What would you say would be som
^ q£ ^ times you were a
with the time youpwere"®^ were there many sports or athletic
events^or^nything°like^hat'when you were a student originally.
well, there was a little baseball in the spring, ^ic^fe^other^
football, and a little in "sketbal
^ time I went back on
5 bejaculty^in
spring^' Never'hfd a'coach that I know of for tennis,
rd played
some tennis, we'd just play
Well we had some track^ The old
gymnasium now has a track and stairs. And we did some cross
country running.
Well that's interesting. I think what I'll do is, I think I'll go
•1
1
j
t-u.'e
r>nu
Thank VOU.
-35-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Dora Morrison Johnson
Interviewer:
Donald Kelly
DK:
Mrs. Johnson when did you start as a student of Slippery Rock Normal
School?
DJ:
Well I started as a student in Slippery Rock Normal in the Fall of
1912, and at that time my name was Dora Morrison.
DK:
I understand that you had a long term connection with the school and
that your father was an employee of the school, is that true?
DJ:
That's true. He was over the dining room and did the buying of the
food for the college.
DK:
And what was his name Dora?
DJ:
Samuel Gettus Morrison.
DK:
How long did he work for the University?
DJ:
I can't tell you that.
DK:
. . . As long as you remember at least.
DJ:
As long as I remember...
DK:
Back into your childhood he was always employed there.
DJ:
But I was the youngest of six children.
DK:
How many of your brothers and sisters also attended Slippery Rock
Normal School?
DJ:
I had three sisters, two brothers and myself.
Slippery Rock Normal.
DK:
You all graduated.
DJ:
All.
DK:
Well that's amazing.
DJ:
My oldest sister graduated in 1901, and one graduated in, I think
1902. They were among some of the first people to graduate from
the normal school.
DK:
In those days everybody thought in terms of preparing to become
teachers. Did you ever teach, Mrs. Johnson?
DJ:
Yes I did.
I know for several years.
We all graduated from
I graduated in 1916 and I was married in 1917.
-36-
My
husband, Charles A.
out of the service married wo
After he came
t into the service.
^
^ allowed to teach any
longer.
DK:
DJ
,
„
-w.r nretty standard throughout Pennsylvania,
Oh, is that true? Was that pretty
that married women did no
• , raaT, was allowed to teach. I could have
sub^tu^d" nidtrSaching at East McKeesport and I could
substitute, but I could not teach.
DK
DJ
DK
DJ
Could married men teach?
Married men could teach but married women could not teach.
Does that sound a little unfair to you today?
T T-Mnk that it's very unfair because you pay for your
Well I think tnat
J
teacher
Then you can't teach
education, you prepare to be a teacner.
y
because you're married.
TJ N
DK
Where did you say your first teaching job was?
DJ
My first teaching job was at Ifft School.
DK:
Where is that?
DJ:
Well...it's about four miles out of Slippery Rock.
school and I taught one term there.
DK
I believe that it's four miles East of Slippery Rock, isn't it?
Near what today would be route eight. Is that the location?
DJ
Yes.
DK
And where else did you teach?
DJ
In East McKeesport. I went from there, to East
McKeesport. Chuck went into the service and I went to East
McKeesport and taught there.
DK:
For One year.
DJ:
One Year.
DK
What grades did you teach?
DJ
I taught third and fourth grade in East McKeesport.
DK
...and you taught all eight grades at Ifft School...
DJ:
I taught all eight grades a Ifft School
T r r f-
It was a country
It was near Adams Corners.
C
A1
-37-
DK:
Do you have any interesting little anecdotes, any funny little
stories from either Ifft School or East McKeesport that you could
share with us?
DJ:
Well I had thirty-six children at the Ifft School at Adams Corners.
DK:
Were they all perfect little students, or were there some little rap
scallions there?
DJ.
I had two youngsters, Isabelle Adams and Genavive Mathews. Isabelle
Adams' dad was on the board. Genavive Mathews' dad, he thought
that he could run the school. So, they insisted on talking all the
time. When you have as many classes as I had in eight grades, it's
pretty hard to teach and have a couple of kids talking. I had
asked them to please stop talking, but no, every little bit they
would start talking to each other. I finally said "would every
person lay down your pencils and books and just sit in your seat."
So the youngsters all did that. I said "Genavive, would you please
come to the front of the room?" So she came to the front of the
room. Now I said "You face the students and talk for five
minutes." She said " I don't have anything to say." I said "I
don't care what you say, but you are going to stand here until you
talk for five minutes." So she finally started talking. I don't
remember today what she said, but she stood there for five minutes
and talked. That ended the talking between she and Isabelle Adams.
DK:
What happened then?
DJ:
Well then Isabelle Adams, because her dad was on the school board,
she thought she could run things. So I had to put her in her
place. I told her, I said "Because your dad is on the school
board, you're not telling me what to do . . . you just forget about
your dad being on the school board and get down to work." So that
put her in her place. Those were the two that I had the most
trouble with.
But that ended it.
DK:
Would you say that your training for the four years at the Normal
School prepared you pretty well to handle these incidents that you
encountered in the classroom?
DJ:
Well it did because, as professor Stuart always said "The kids who
went through model school could just judge a teacher as she walked
across the room." Up 'til fifth grade we had five teachers each
day. We changed teachers every forty-five minutes and then in six
weeks we got five new teachers. Then from sixth grade on we had
seven teachers each day. We changed teachers every forty-five
minutes and got new teachers every six weeks. We had to take
examinations every six weeks.
DK:
Now these were student teachers...
DJ:
And these were student teachers being trained in their senior year,
to go out and teach.
-38-
DK:
,«
When I came through the system
You used the term "m°deJ SC
laboratory school,
they were referring to it as a
DJ
No, it was model school then.
It was called the model school then.
It was
a model school and we had that clear through high school.
aisssstta.'ssr-s.'"°f -"llw
|J:
professor Ireesman.
Pr°P«S°*^f ™ee
t
grades.
We h«l three
^^""thrniX tenth, and the eleventh grades. They were high
School: The first eight grades were just supplementary school I
guess. Or just plain school.
DK
Elementary school?
DJ
Elementary school.
DK
That is a little different system than most people are familiar with
today. You think by having all of those student teachers you began
to recognize what good teaching was?
DJ:
You could certainly tell in about five minutes what kind of a
teacher you were going to have. We had some really good teachers
and we had some that of course were not. Just like today.
DK:
As a student at the model school would you say those students became
experts at not only recognizing poor teaching but maybe being a
little rough on the poor teachers? I ask that question because I
remember as a student at the laboratory school, and I'm not proud
of it, but sometimes we were not as kind as we might have been, to
the poor student teachers.
DJ:
We pulled a number of things on them. We knew what we could pull on
them because they were inexperienced and some of them should have
never been school teachers.
DK:
But those that you recognized as competent, you showed them respect
immediately, listened, and behaved.
DJ
Oh yes. There were good teachers. A number of them were good
teachers. Every six weeks we had an honor roll. I'm not boasting
but I was always on the honor roll. I
always
into
the
back
seat
people
tosat
have
see
ver
me
°
DK:
thing^ometimesT^Did'that^other'you?
-39-
" embarrassinS
DJ
No. I didn't find it because I was only five-eight, five feet eight
inches tall. But there were four girls, us, who sat in the corner,
in the back.
DK:
Today there are quite a few women who are five foot eight, but I
imagine, in your era, five foot eight was quite tall for a woman.
DJ:
Well it was tall, yes.
tall.
DK:
Our sizes are changing.
DJ:
Times have changed certainly.
through model school.
DK:
Who were some of your favorite college professors and why? Could
you name some names? Those that you have particularly fond
memories of.
DJ:
You mean in the Normal School?
DK:
Yes.
DJ
Professor Stuart, he was over the whole model school, a wonderful
man. He was kind but firm. When he spoke, we listened. If a
teacher could not make it, he would come in and teach the class.
You really learned in forty-five minutes. He really was wonderful
in so many ways. He was kind but he was firm and what he said, he
did.
DK:
Was he at Slippery Rock for a lengthy period of time?
DJ:
Professor was there just when I was a little kid, but not for very
long. Professor Stuart was there practically the whole time I went
to model school. He was still there after I left model school.
DK:
After you graduated from college as well, he was still there?
DJ:
Yes, he was still there when I graduated from college. I remember,
when I was in normal school, I did my practice teaching in the
second grade, seventh, and the eleventh grade in high school.
DK
What were your favorite subjects to study and to teach?
DJ:
Math.
DK:
You enjoyed studying math and teaching math.
DJ:
I liked math, art, and English.
DK:
Well that disturbs me.
DJ:
I liked geography but I hated history.
There were other people in my room that were
Persons are getting taller...
It was an education alone, to go
I hated history.
-40-
DK:
DJ
DK:
.,
And here, you are becoming
Now isn't that a shame.
I never liked history.
nart of history and you didn't like it.
P
I couldn't see any sense in it.
Isn't that
funny.
teachers? ^onld"^^'^ "eir°faul« "ta Sltlu^our
fault?
DJ
, time
.
, _ I
t ufle
troinE through model school it didn't
seem
No, at the
when
wm going cnr ^
^
i
to bother me
But when I ventup into
Murphy taught
thing that ®a ®
m®
that was in that book, almost.
learn every date
When°he gave examinations it was just dates dates, dates all the
time. There wasn't much else to it, just dates.
DK:
I think if I would have had a teacher like that I would not have
liked history either. So I'll forgive you because I certainly
would not have liked history taught like that.
DJ
It was just from 1492 straight through every date.
terrible.
DK:
Well, I know one professor that you liked very much, Professor
Stuart. Then the other professor that you didn't like, Professor
Murphy. Are there any others that you thought were particularly
good and had an influence on you? Other than Professor
Stuart...Who was president?
DJ:
Dr. Moffit was president.
year.
DK:
He was followed by Dr. Entz.
DJ:
Oh I liked him. He was a good teacher. I can tell you none of the
downtown kids liked Professor Hamm. He picked on the town kids.
That is true. He was nick-named "bruiser Hamm." One day in class I
was taking Cesar and I never used a pony. I did my own
translating. It was a bridge chapter. He had called on another
student to translate the chapter and there was a good bit of it
that she couldn't do. So he said to me, "now Miss Morrison we will
see what you can do". He talked through his nose all the time. So
I stood up and translated it. There were a couple of words that I
1 n t get. I said, "Professor, there are a couple of words I can't
get in this bridge chapter." He said to me, "Miss Morrison it is
your business to get those words in there." He just irked me. I
"Sin
anything ba<*
i-n lS!SS?rJ 3T' 1
ST-Sn^E
DK:
Oh, it was
The year I graduated, 1916, was his last
t0 a teacher be^re
1 kneW everything
He said to
sat down.
«•
I think that is a pretty good answer.
-41-
but I said to him,
I wouldn't be here. I
y°u
may
DJ:
When I got my card, report card, that year I expected him to point
me.
But he gave me ninety-five.
DK:
Well see he didn't hold it against you personally.
grade at least.
DJ:
But he was so mean with many of the town kids. Then he had his pets
that stayed up in the dorm. There was a Miss McKella, she could do
nothing wrong. But George McQuiston, Scott Hockenberry, Paul
Harbaugh, and the town kids, the girls and the boys, they couldn't
do anything right. There would be certain ones in a family that he
would pick on. He picked on some of my older brothers and sisters,
one sister especially: one time he went over to Germany and she was
hoping the ship would sink. So I was sort of waiting for him. But
that was the only time he ever said anything to me. That was the
only time I ever said anything.
DK:
You mentioned your two brothers and three sisters that also
graduated. We have the image that all these folks that went to the
Normal School taught for the rest of their lives. It might be
interesting if you shared with us what your other family members
and yourself ended up doing.
DM:
My mother taught school. My father did not. My oldest sister
taught first primary in Pittsburgh, my older sister Sarah. Then
May, she taught school in Pittsburgh. My brother Stewart, he
taught school, his first term he taught out at Brown Town. Then he
went west and taught school out in Minnesota before going into the
automobile business. My brother Newt, he taught school and then
went into the banking business. He was a bank examiner. My sister
Delula she taught school in Pittsburgh and then took up medicine.
She practiced medicine in Cleveland and in California.
DK:
Where did she attend medical school?
DJ:
She attended medical school in Pittsburgh.
DK:
At the University of Pittsburgh?
DJ:
At the University of Pittsburgh.
DK:
So most of her life was spent as a physician not as a teacher?
DJ:
Yes. Then I taught those two years. Then they wouldn't let married
women teach. So I took up the beauty business. I had my own
beauty shop in New Castle. Then Chuck and I came back to Slippery
Rock because my father had passed away. I opened a shop in
Slippery Rock. I worked in Slippery Rock until 1973. I worked
from 1931 to 1973.
DK:
How old were you when you finally closed your shop?
DJ:
I was seventy-eight years old.
-42-
Not by using a
DK:
DJ:
You worked until you were seven y
at seven o'clock in the morning. I
And I got up and opened my sh P
^worked Saturdays. I was
took a half day off on Wedine
y ,
but j had t^e business and
sort of foolish to work so
y ^ o>c[ock in the morning. And I
people were glad to com a
^
Not that ghe was down in
t-nni( care of my mother ror rwexvc j
twelve years, but she needed me.
bed
DK:
for
Some attention at least
I intended to^you
eightnwhen you finally gave up the beauty shop, how old are you
now?
t fpll and broke my hip.
DJ
couldn't have worked anyway.
When I came
~r-ry.Lc:r":...
I'm ninety-three years old.
ninety-three the second day of December.
DK
The university was 100 year old in 1989 and you were ninety-three in
1988.
DJ:
I was born December second, 1895.
DK:
You are only six years younger than the university.
remarkable isn't it.
DJ
And mentally I'm perfect.
with this broken hip.
DK:
I think that anyone who hears this interview will certainly know
that you are in a perfect mental state. Do you have any other
memories of your years as a student at the Normal School that you
might like to share; anything that I have not asked you that you
would like to share?
DJ:
Well I would like to say this. When I was in school, we had a class
at 7:45 am and it lasted until 8:30. At 8:30 we had chapel, a
religious service over in the chapel. All the students and the
teachers were expected to go there. That service lasted until
9:00. Then from 9:00 we had classes until 4:15. Another thing;
we had two societies, the Philomathean and the Bryan literary
societies. These met on Saturday nights. All the students, at the
dorm and the students down town, and the students that stayed at
home all had to be in at seven on week nights. The only evening
that we could be out past seven-o-clock was Saturday nights.
Saturday nights we had to be in at ten-o-clock.
DK:
Even though you lived in your own home, the same rules applied as
though you lived in the dorm?
DJ:
There were a number of faculty that lined in town and they checked
on the town people. We had to be in and we knew we had to be in.
That is pretty
Physically I'm okay only I'm handicapped
-43-
DK:
How did you feel about that?
Did you resent that?
DJ:
No, because it was just the same as everyone else. All of them had
to be in. At the dorm lights had to be out at ten-thirty. But our
lights did not have to be out at home. Oh, another thing; when we
entered the Normal School we had to take examinations. We had to
pass these tests before we could enter in the Fall. Then before we
graduated we had to take state boards. If we did not pass the
state board examinations we didn't get to graduate.
DK:
How many times could you take the state boards?
you have the right to take it again?
DJ:
You had to go back to school and make up those classes that you
failed in. The state board came from Harrisburg. This is sort
something that is sort of ridiculous. I played basketball, we had
a girls team. It was a Normal team. The boys were not allowed to
watch the girls play. In the gym there was a balcony, which is
still up there. Two of our best basketball players one day decided
that they were going to watch the girls play basketball: Jimmy
Oris and Dick Dellis. It was discovered that they did watch us
play. So those two boys were both sent home, never allowed to come
back to school, just because they watched us play basketball.
DK:
Even though they were star basketball players the school was willing
get rid of them.
DJ:
Boy were we burned up.
DK:
Did they consider this as being something sexual, that they would
watch the girls play basketball? What did they fear?
DJ:
I don't understand it because we had to wear middies, bloomers that
came down below the knees, and stockings. It was ridiculous.
DK:
I have seen pictures of the uniforms and it would be hard for me to
imagine those uniforms being provocative in any sense.
DJ:
I played center and shot fouls.
That was plain stupid.
DK:
These young men never came back to school?
DJ-
They were never allowed to. I think it is about time that they
start waking up here and start sending a few home. Then maybe they
would not have so much trouble with drinking.
DK-
You think while some of the rules that you had to live under may
have been extreme and silly that maybe today we could use some of
those rules.
DJ*
If they would send a few of them home and allow them to come back,
it would straighten some other people up, I think. They allow them
If you failed did
That was not fair.
I liked it, but that was silly.
-44-
A it la ridiculous.
They walk these streets and
out all night and
,.
thev want to do.
get drunk and do everything they
. _n o t so much the school, but in our concept
I think the difference
^
uke that> like the one you
of law. Because t0 ** y '
n g m e n that were sent home without a
described with th° s ®
?
l d s u e the University and probably
hearing, those two ^n today co
^
^ Qf thQse
win. This is what would happen t
7;
^ flnd w h a t e v e r f i f t h
-**
probably
court system today they could probably win.
sue-
In
our
T didn't know that. But I know that there has been peepers around
A 2LL was a student who came to my door and wanted to use the
rfJJnne
He came to the back door and he did not want in to use
my telephone. I don't know what he wanted in for but I did not let
him in.
Well I think in your case: your age and a woman living alone that
is what you should have done.
They said up at the college, I contacted them up there. Well in
fact I called the police here and they said that they would have to
give him a hearing. They gave him a hearing and the same person
had been peeping through windows but they never suspended him.
They never did anything. They said he said he was drunk. I don't
believe he was drunk. He knew what he wanted in for, he wanted in
to use my telephone. If he was drunk he would not have known.
Well it's certainly a different world.
They were too strict in a lot of things when I was young.
are too lenient in some things.
Now they
We do tend to go from one extreme to the other don't we.
I don't know how they are going to stop, or where they are going to
stop, or when they are going to stop.
How many students were in your graduating class?
TCiere were 112 students in my class. There were twelve boys. One
boy was in the service. We were all four year students. G r a d u a t e d
in a four year course. We could teach from first grade
through
b
high school.
y^Ur^er! thouSh-
one or
didn°t
t h e r e w e re
a lot of people did get what they
certificates. They would only go to college for
S J 1 C O u l d t e a c h ' i n s o m e cases.
tZ
I know you
B u t s o m e P e °Ple could, could they not?
a^ermanent^certificate
j°. r e a c h
years until we could get
u r years to do that two year
teaching
The-r*
g. There are some people who could not afford to go four
-45-
years. They would go two years. Then every summer they had to go
to school. They had to get so many credits before they could get a
certificate. To get a permanent certificate, they had to work on.
Some people had to go to school all the time, every summer.
DK:
Until they had gotten all the credits they needed for the permanent
certification.
DJ:
But the 112 that graduated in our class all had permanent
certificates.
DK:
I know that you may not remember this, but do you remember about how
many were in the Normal School not just your class but all the
classes put together. What was the total population of the Normal
school, approximately? Like today there are about 7000.
DJ:
I would say there might have been 500. I would say that would be
the top figure. There were 112 in our class.
DK:
Mrs. Johnson, since I have known you for a long time and have heard
you speak occasionally about your days in the normal school, I
heard you talk about something called flag fights. This is
something I never heard of. What is a flag fight?
DJ:
They had the two literary societies and they would have flag fights.
What they would do is one society would put a flag up on top of the
boy's dorm. Then the boys from the other society would go up and
take it down and put theirs up. Then they would try to find out
who was doing it. If they found them out, which they did, they
would expel them from school for six weeks. Then they could come
back.
DK:
Well, that could be dangerous up on top of those dormitories
couldn't it.
DJ:
The boy's dormitories is what they used. I remember one fella who
got caught and he was expelled for six weeks. When he went home
his dad told him to go and get himself a job, and when he could
behave himself after the six weeks you go back through school. He
happened to be lucky enough to get himself a job on a farm. He
worked for six weeks and came back. His dad put him back in
school. He graduated and went on and taught. (In a whisper) That
was my brother!
DK:
(Laughter) I heard you whisper something there.
say it out loud?
DJ:
Well that was my oldest brother. (Laughter)
DK:
(Laughter)...That is better. (Still laughing)...Stewart, was that
the name?
DJ:
That was my brother Stewart.
-46-
Are you afraid to
DK:
DJ:
T ,wr think that it hurt him any either way,
Well, considering, I don t c
it was something
for gix weeks.
either the job or being ^
f
His
father
at least had to
0
that his father could not pp
different kind of behavior,
let him know that he expected some an
.„
Another thing I wanted to
students graduating in
y
that in 1913 there were only twelve
^ ciass. The rest were all
^
then Qn there was no
three^ear cLss" Ttlt was the beginning of the four year course.
DK:
That is quite a difference.
112 in your class for the four year.
.
DJ:
In 1916 and then there was only twelve.
DK:
Very early the normal school began to expand and become a degree
granting institution, giving full bachelor degrees.
DJ:
As a whole
we knew we
individual
boards you
DK:
You mentioned that at least one of your class mates went to the Army
in WW I. Did any of the young men lose their lives in WW I that
you went to school with that you know of?
DJ:
No. Hersh came home. He lived through the war. He graduated with
the class. He was not there but there was a chair draped with the
American flag.
DK:
That is a nice, nice symbol.
DJ:
On commencement day it was sad because Dr. Maltby did not want to
retire. But at that time the state took over. So he no longer
could be president. So he said good-bye to us and we said good-bye
to him. Then he and Mrs. Maltby moved to Grove City. Professor
Moore filled in until they got some person from the state.
DK:
You enjoyed Dr. Maltby then I take it.
DJ:
Dr. and Mrs. Maltby were very lovely people. The students all liked
him and Dr. Maltby was strict and he had reason to be. He had nice
students and they respected him.
DK:
Did he live out his life at Grove City then?
DJ:
He lived the rest of his life in Grove City. He and Mrs
Maltby
had an apartment in the girl's dormitory, first and second floor
DK:
There was no separate president's home at that time?
DJ:
No.
we had a nice time. The teachers were strict with us and
had to take state board. So it was up to you as an
to buckle down and learn. And if you didn t pass state
couldn't graduate.
-47-
DK:
Well can you think of anything else that you would like to add
before we terminate the interview Mrs. Morrison?
DJ:
Well I could add some funny things but I am not going to.
DK:
Well we like funny things. Do you think they are better left
unsaid. Well thank you very much.
DJ:
I think that I said enough with what I said about Dr.
DK:
Well, Dr. Hamm is not around to get even with you so I don't think
you should worry about it. Thank you very much.
-48-
Hamm.
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Proj
Alumnus: Margaret Nelson
Interviewer:
Donald Kelly
DK:
our^oorfoSune^to"^
Nelson from the class of 1920.
DK:
Where was your home town?
MN:
Now?
DK:
No when you were a youngster.
Slippery Rock?
MN:
Utica, PA.
DK:
Utica, PA--where is that?
MN:
Vanango County, 10 minutes from Franklin on a farm 1/2 way between
Utica and New Lisbon. Utica was in Vanango County but my home is
in Mercer.
DK:
How did you come to choose Slippery Rock as your college?
MN:
I wanted to be a teacher and it was the closest at the time. I
thought I wanted to be a rural school teacher, so I took training
at Slippery Rock. It was then a state normal school, one of the
13.
DK
Did you take a 1 year course, 2 year course, or a 4 year course?
MN
Two.
DK
You took the two year course then and graduated in 1922.
MN
No, I graduated in 1920.
DK
Oh, I see.
MN
I went to Utica High School. It was a very one horse high school.
I had to catch up on some subjects at Slippery Rock. I took one
summer course too.
DK:
Did you graduate in Elementary Education or Secondary
J
Education?
MN:
DK:
Margaret
When did you decide to come to
I went in 1918.
was'; specialty811^^SCh°01'^
^d it-
So you planned to teach in one room country schools, probably?
-49-
«
MN:
Yes.
DK
Did you teach then in one room country schools?
MN:
Only for 3 years.
DK
For 3 years and where was that school?
MN:
That was called Crouters School in Mercer county near New Lisbon
which is near Sandy Lake.
DK:
I know where that is. And if it's not to sensitive, what prompted
you to leave Crouters School, after 3 years.
MN:
I just got the idea that somewhere I'd like to teach high school,
proceeded after those 3 years to Westminster and graduated in 1925
Then I taught in Parker.
DK:
Yes.
MN:
English.
DK
English and you taught at Parker High School?
MN:
Yes
DK
How many years did you teach at Parker?
MN:
Six years.
DK
I assume you continued to teach, but just changed school
districts. Is that right?
MN:
Yes. A friend, got a position for me at Oil City. So I was there
for 27 more years until I retired. Which makes 36 years teaching.
DK:
Well, I almost caught up with you.
MN:
You'll have to go one more year.
DK
I'll have to just keep up with you. That's for sure. Do you have
any memories of a teacher here a Slippery Rock, that had a strong
impact on you?
MN:
Oh, a number of them. I remember Mrs. Diament the physical
education teacher. I had great admiration for her and for Dr.
Hamm. I had him in 3 situations. We just looked at a book over
there, that my niece discovered, and it had a mention of him. He
taught Bible. I learned a lot there, and he taught psychology. We
had a little nature club too. There weren't many of us, but we'd
go out early in the morning on field trips. One distinct memory of
Dr. Hamm was, how apologetic he was for his face being swollen for
being exposed to poison ivy, he was a sight.
What was your major at Westminster?
-50-
I've got 35 years.
DK:
He was an outdoorsman then.
MN:
He felt he had no business appearing before all his classes.
DK-
I have heard of his. and I had seen Pictures, but obviously he was
before my time. I heard good reports of him. Who was president
when you were here then?
MN-
Dr Eisenberg and I had forgotten his name until the man on the bus
mentioned it
Dr. Linwood Eisenberg. I've been trying all week to
think of his first name.
DK:
And what was your impression of Dr. Eisenberg?
MN:
He was fine. I have some picture of him and his wife and his wife's
sister. They were both on faculty. She was dean of women, the
sister was. What was her maiden name?
I'll think of that on
way home.
DK:
I heard he was quite a disciplinarian.
MN:
Yes. He was very strict about things.
North Hall, and South was the mens.
DK:
Good thing you weren't in North in 1939.
MN:
That's when it burned?
DK
That's when it burned. But you were in the old North.
quite a beautiful building. I've seen pictures of i t .
MN:
Yes it was. They had one section of rooms called the towers rooms.
knew someone who lived in the towers and used to go
over and talk
&
to them.
DK:
MN:
DK:
MN:
traveling? arS ° f
But in this case It got hi*
ln
trouble.
Is that true?
Which was good.
t e a c h i n g y o u h a d s u n u n e rs
off.
I was in
That was
Did you do any
out : S n S ^ i y ?°' -p 1 f 0 0 k a c o u P l e °f trips to Canada then went
?
t i m e s through train, once by car, and once by
plane
plane to
to San
San Fr
Francisco.
R„t- ,-w
1
'
.Lu..
But that was later not earlier.
Western FA?'
lnterested
enough to take you away from
I think not.
DK:
elementfrrannecond:^" 8 ^^
about the occupation yw chose?
a f t « 36
DU y°U
years of
haVe
and
re8retS
MN:
what I wanted 6 to P do y "it* 1 b e f° r e 1 e v er began to teach that, that's
• -Lt really pays to feel that way too.
-51-
DK:
MN:
Do you feel it was a calling rather than a job?
n0t S°rry'
People
retiLdldT
retire. I say follow me and find out.
say what do
y°u
do
after you
DK
Well what do you do after
MN
Keep active in church and Sunday school, things like that.
DK
Is this in Oil City?
MN:
No, Franklin.
DK
What church are you active in?
MN
United Methodist church called Becker Church. It's out in, do you
know where Cochrenton is? There's a lady that takes me out there.
She comes for me. That's the reason I'm still going there.
DK:
I'm sort of shocked to find that your a member of this
United Methodist Church.
MN:
Oh you are.
DK:
Yes.
MN:
Westminster was one of my choices because I was United
Presbyterian.
DK:
Oh, well you saw the light. See my wife is a United Methodist
Psstor that's the reason I'm kidding you.
MN:
Last pastor we had, both him and his wife were pastors for United
Methodist Church.
DK:
Did you have Amy Twigg?
MN:
No, but I know about her though.
Creek.
DK
She's become a district superintendent now.
MN:
Oh that's right.
DK:
I was just kidding.
MN:
I could still enjoy the United Presbyterian Church but, the little
one in Utica broke up and had two but then decided to have one.
DK:
Did they do to you what they did to others in others churches? Do
they expect you, because your a teacher, to teach Sunday school as
well?
I live in Franklin, Rocky Grove.
-52-
She's minister out there in Sugar
MN:
I used to but not anymore.
DK:
i
I thought if I have
a Ht-tle stubborn and refused to.
these k dwl leet long they don't need me on the weekends too. I
made some people mad but I always refused.
MN:
I don't blame you.
DK:
MN:
t_ Ti
T rprfainlv don't have any regrets about being a
teacher
I was always satisfied with that. How would you compare
students? High school students when you started to teach them,
which would have been the late 1920's, as compared to the students
of your last year of teaching? Did you see any difference in their
attitudes in their behavior commitment to education?
Not a whole lot no. As the years went on so many more
interests they had. So you couldn't expect them to be as
interested as I was in participles and gerunds and sentences.
that's what I had.
So
DK:
I bet you just diagramed those kids to death.
MN:
That's the way I learned my English. I used to teach that in the
country school but got away from that in high school. I still
don't recommend it, but, it's the way I see my English still. I
will say for rural schools, and I was a pupil for rural schools,
that teachers were way ahead of their time. They were wonderful.
I look back on them and I will never forget them. They had to take
eight state exams at that time you probably never heard of such
things.
DK
Yes, I took one myself.
MN
Oh you did.
DK
Yes I did.
MN
I remember how proud our old school teacher was when she
found out that I was taking it, and that the children she had were
at the top
She was very proud of us. We had one lady who had
een an employee and a pal. She was ahead of her time she thought
t ?Vh®se mo?ern things to do like field trips, and things
that a lot of people in those days did not try to do. She took us
I ltatB Sch°o1' a.sled load. A farmer, a team of horses
niSht.
T'd
cKo°° U\°Vjr
I had never been over there, but
6
when ehp
tj
time. The whole community mourned
6 Wer®?. C verY nice to her successor because we
felt there wac
there was no one like Mrs. Stewart.
DK:
I'm not a youngster either.
aboutSit^ffiCUlt'
t0 follow a verY
popular person.
There's no doub
MN:
a'common'older
2e
-53-
^
^
DK:
MN:
iriust°rnLJcUSt^haVe,-t5uality>
it just comes automatically.
they d°n't
have to earn respect
when the teacher came home with the kids and
I^LW!£e
6
ni
She
was over our house a good many a times.
nir.t-h0y
iMy
mother was very fond of her. She traveled from home to home. She
also had a permanent place right next to the school.
DK:
When you started to teach were they still following the
IITHZ* that they did in some districts of firing in the spring
rehiring in the autumn--at the lowest level salary. Did they
J
do that in your day?
MN
I can't answer that very well, I know I never missed a pay.
DK
And did you get a raise every year you were teaching?
MN
Yes, do you want to guess how much I started with?
1921.
This was in
DK:
Oh I'll say $1200.
MN:
$75 a month.
DK:
$75 a month!
MN:
Second year $85 and third year $100. There were times when some
teachers didn't receive their pay for that month they had to wait
but I never missed a pay in all the years that I taught.
DK.
To what extent did the local school board oversee your
teaching?
MN:
I used to be scared to death when the superintendent came to the
country school. I never thought, I was myself, I never thought I
did my best when he was around. They came to Oil City and I can't
remember Parker I guess they came.
DK:
I can understand that. It's frightening when the superintendent
comes and observes. I can appreciate that.
MN:
Did you teach too?
DK:
Oh yes, I taught in public schools for 5 years and I've
taught here for 27 years.
MN:
Teaching in what?
DK:
History.
MN:
Dr. Murphy was my history teacher here. I can't remember to much
about the class, but I remember what he looked like.
-54-
DK:
MN:
DK:
j
rh mv subject she's telling me.
She's not impressed with my su j
• v T ViaH a little more access to it maybe a different instructor
lillyol I thttk it does make a lot of difference who your
instructor is for history.
0h,
I thin, for any c l - really
?ructor e and V nS necessarily subjects or what have you
They
select those people they hear are core enjoyable or what have you.
Teaching is every personal thing and very closely tied in with the
personality of the person teaching. How closely have you
m a i n t a i n e d your connections with Slippery Rock over the years?
ins
MN:
I wouldn't say to closely but sort of closely. Diana used to go
here, she's my niece and when she was down here we brought her to
the dorms.
DK
Oh, she was a student here also?
MN:
Yes.
DK:
Oh, I was here when she came here in '63. So through family ties
you've kept close ties with Slippery Rock?
MN:
Yes, and I have another niece who like me is a Westminster graduate,
but she came here summers to help with her teaching programs. She
taught at the Commador Perry School and was just retired recently;
she was Lillian Nelson now Lillian Carnahan; she was retired just
this year.
DK:
Well let's say some young person came to you Miss Nelson
today and they were a little uncertain of their career and college
and they might say to you, "Well I think maybe I'd like to teach
but I'm not sure. And I'm not sure whether I'd rather go to
Westminster or Slippery Rock" What's your advice? What would you
tell them?
MN:
That s a hard question if it isn't what they want to do maybe the
expense would have something t o do with i t .
DK:
MN:
DK:
iVCrainli wouid. Then between the 2 schools, it's pretty obvioi
Which school to choose if expense is the question.
l;;
Ss
r*
iiscaa
£
"sr
a
=* i ffivsag-su isx;* - •»~ - - tl"
decisions Song^hose^ines?' **
MN:
There you go.
-55-
S C h °° 1 S
^
their
DK;
vou'dnii£a^V
good suggestion. Well do you have anything
eyminate with because it's going down for posterity
it will >>« •
it will be in print and people will be reading this for years.
MN
Where are you going to put it?
DK
It's going to be in a booklet along with several others.
MN:
In the Alumni News?
DK
Let's see, no it will be in a separate booklet by itself, and we'll
see that you get a copy.
MN:
That would be wonderful. Well, I certainly have enjoyed
talking with you and riding around with some of these people that
have told us so much. Mr. Watson on the bus, that I first rode in,
he told us a lot about things that have occurred. Since we got it
first hand from him, it's been very enjoyable talking with you.
DK:
Well I'm sure everyone has been pleased having you and they told me
before I even met you how wonderful a personality you had and how
you'd be wonderful to interview. They were right. Thank you very
J
much.
-56-
,-«i nral History Project
Slippery Rock University Centenn
Alumnus: Hazel Armstrong
Interviewer: Peggy Mershimer
You have lived here all of your life?
In
the vicinity, except for when I was away teaching.
What were some of the different places that you lived?
V ™
Rrowntown, also known as Carter Station, and
then'we ^ed°to Redmond? theA later to the Branchton area.
Did you get you elementary education here in Branchton?
Yes I went to the Branchton school, a one room school.
Eunice
wanted me to mention what has happened to the most recent Branchton
school. It has caved in, and she was sorry you couldn't take a
picture of it while it was whole.
I do have pictures of that school, and the roof was still holding up
then though it did look very bad. Now, I guess the Branchton
school is no more.
During the time you were growing up, you went
m Slirmerv rock for shopping and such?
HA:
Yes.
PM:
Tell us how you became a high school student at Slippery Rock.
HA:
Well, I went to the president of the school board, William Morrison,
to get permission to go to the secondary department of the Slippery
Rock Normal School for my high school, it was with the
understanding that my father would pay the activities fee, which
was $10 a semester, as I recall. I found out years later that if
you were a member of a family of a school board member, they paid
for them all. They claimed that the Branchton school was the worst
in the area and they paid teachers extra to teach there.
PM:
It was a badly overcrowded school, was it not?
HA:
It was overcrowded, and there were some kids that did not have
respect for authority and they just did not want to be trained.
They went there to show their muscle. This foreign boy, I don't
know why, picked on Madison Dixon, who would not have lifted his
hand to hurt a flea. This boy threw Madison down and jumped on his
head, so Ethel Hunt, the teacher went out to the playground and
this boy gave he battle. She had her rubber hose and every time he
W °vv
r f i s e h i s hand > she'd crack him over the hand with that
ru er hose. She subdued him, and she only weighed around 100
pounds, but the boy did not know that he had been brought up on a
-57-
PM:
T^i vS.?Jlittle about y°u hiBh school education in Slippery Rock.
What building were you classes in?
HA:
Mostly in the Main building, and the Normal School teachers were our
teachers in secondary school.
PM.
What was different between when you were going to school there and
when you were teaching?
HA:
Well, you would be asked what you wanted to take. I said I wanted
the academic curriculum, so therefore the only choice I had was
either Latin or French, and I chose French because I didn't want
Beatrice K. Mary.
PM:
Her reputation was for being pretty tough?
HA:
Yes. And the choice of French was not any better because 18 of
those who started the year only 6 remained at the end of the year.
PM:
Who was teaching?
HA:
Miss Campbell, she was a Canadian, French Canadian, of course. in
our third year, there was a young man who had graduated from the
Normal School several years before, and he was wanting to go some
place else. He had already gotten his degree from Thiel, and he
was given permission to join the French class, and he got Miss
Campbell's number pretty quickly. He would do things to aggravate
her because he knew she couldn't do anything to him. Of course the
rest of us were enjoying this new experience. One question he
asked her was, "If you were in France and spoke French, would they
understand you?" She almost exploded on that. She said, "The
French I'm teaching you is the French they teach in France."
PM:
Who were some of the other teachers, beside Miss Campbell in French?
HA:
Well, Mr. Headland and Coach Thompson.
PM:
What kind of teacher was Coach Thompson?
HA:
Oh, he was good, and he wouldn't put up with any funny stuff. One
time a star football player wasn't too good in math and during
football season we had been permitted to help him when he went to
the blackboard. One day we did not realize that football season
was over, and Coach told Nick which proposition to take, and Nick
looked back after he put it on the board. He looked at Helen
McCullough and me, and we shook our heads that it wasn't right.
Instead of his just erasing here and there he erased the whole
thing. Coach said, "Now Nick, you explain you proposition." Nick
said, "It ain't right, Coach." And then Coach let loose with all
guns and Helen and I tried to slide under the desk, but he didn't
say a word to us. He told Nick, "Those girls are just kidding
you." After giving Nick a good math lesson, he told him to sit
down.
-58-
PM:
i.
-M that be Mac McCullough's sister?
Helen McCullough, would tha
4There was Pierce and Wallace and
««h''
„«
HA:
.... .f ... «»•>"•'
h'd
""" "***
inbc but they broke them up rather quickly
They started some clubs,
interested in the clubs that were
because the students were
slippery Rock they had the two
available. Before I came to Slippery^ ^^ £isenberg
societies, the Bryan an
«.nnipt:hine; that was going to improve our
wanted us to do was to join
Qf u?
thfdancflroupt^r. Eisenberg said "No" because he felt the group
was not giving us what would benefit us.
PM:
When you say dance group, do you mean the kind where you would dance
with each other?
HA-
Yes, ballroom dancing was what it was. We had a lot of our
activities in gym class. The gym classes were really outstanding
We practiced posture, we played games, we would climb the ropes and
the ladders. One time in particular, we were using a springboard
to vault over the horse, and the first time I used it my feet went
straight up. I was badly frightened. (Laughter)
PM:
There was no swimming then?
HA:
Oh no. Later we got tennis in gym class, and field hockey, and
basketball. I was undersized and had quite a problem in seeing
over people because they towered over me. Jerry Mathews was center
and I was side-center. She was just about to catch the ball and I
ran in to get the ball, much to everyone's surprise, because I did
not do that too often. We also had a game where we had a great big
ball, and you weren't allowed to touch the ball with you hands.
You sat on the floor and kicked the ball with your feet. I think
maybe it was the beginning of training for soccer or something like
that.
PM
What year did you graduate?
HA
I was graduated from the high school in 1923.
PM
What came after that?
HA
Normal School, and I graduated from Normal School in 1925. I took
the two year course so that I would get out sooner to make money.
PM:
You did take more schooling after that?
HA:
Yes
I did not get a job in the fall, and Dad said I should
continue with school, because he did not want me just sitting at
Gr°Ve City' and 1 told him 1 did
want t0 &
rnmr;nier^SgeSc
to Grove City. So it was the 13th of January, 1926, that I starte<
-59-
to teach down in the Beaver Valley. I was there for four and onehalf years. Each summer I would go to summer school to get the
necessary credits, and one year I went to Geneva College, to night
school, to make up a credit. Then in 1931, I was graduated from
the State Teachers College with a Bachelor of Science in Education
degree.
PM:
It was Slippery Rock State Teachers College at that time?
HA:
Yes. Dr. Blaisdell would get and say, "Remember, you are in college
now, you're not in Normal School." And I remember Dr. Hamm, whose
wife taught kindergarten. Everyone loved her and they liked him,
but he scared the wits out of you. One time in Psychology class,
he explained stimulus and response. Well, I understood what he had
explained, but I did not expect what happened next. He said, "All
right," and he started down the row, the A's, and I was the fifth
A. I could tell by looking at him he was ready to explode, because
no one could answer his questions. I blurted out something, if he
had told me to repeat it I never could have, but I satisfied his
question. Then in my next encounter with him, Miss Parks, the
French teacher, was called home because of illness of her father,
and Miss McKay called me into the office to see if I would take her
classes for a couple of days. I said, "Yes, except that is the day
I have Dr. Hamm." She said not to worry that she would fix up an
excuse for me. So I took Miss Parks' French classes, and when I
gave my excuse to Dr. Hamm he asked why they had me teach the
class and why did they not call on someone else. I told him that
no one knew as much French as I did. You know, from that time on
he not pick on me at all.
PM:
Who were some of the other teachers or professors in those college
days?
HA:
Well, there as Ada Elliot. She was wonderful. She wrote the Alma
Mater, the music. Miss Waller was another, she was public school
music teacher. Quite a number of years after she left Slippery
Rock, I was up at Chautauqua, and I saw this person looking at me.
Finally, she motioned for me to come down to where she was and it
was Miss Waller. She was teaching summer school music at
Chautauqua for one of the New York colleges, and she was asking me
about Slippery rock, and about the people. She said, "I never will
be back." I was sorry to hear her say that, because I had always
been very fond of her as a teacher and a person.
PM:
Was there a different feeling between the students and the town then
that there is now?
HA:
I don't know that there was much difference. Where the big
difference came was which group you were in at the college. If you
were Phys Ed, you were it. If you were academic, well you were
kind of a nuisance. They were trying to make Phys Ed the ideal,
and every one else was to be sacrificed at that expense.
PM:
When you were in high school you lived at home and went back and
-60-
forth by horse and wagon?
HA:
Yes, by horse and buggy. I did the same during the college years.
It wasn't horse and buggy when I was going to college, at that time
of my life I was able to drive, so I drove to school.
PM:
When did you buy your first car?
HA:
I think my Dad took his first car with a loan through Roy Grossman.
It was a Ford Runabout, and Walter was determined because he had
learned to drive on John Cheeseman's car that he was not going to
help Ada to drive. Ada said to me, "I'm going to drive down to
Branchton, and you've got to help me." Well, I knew if I did not
help her, she'd do it herself, so I went with her. On the way, she
became kind of confused at the crossing, and she turned to go
parallel with the RR tracks. She went up and over the tracks and
broke the connecting rod, and a lot of people came to lift the car
off the tracks because it was about time for a train. Walter came
down with a horse, the most raw boned horse you ever saw, and
instead of leading him, he jumped on his back and rode him. So a
good time was had by all.
PM:
When you went to school, you just went to school, you did not work
or anything?
HA:
No, I only worked at home.
PM:
Did you have to go to Sunday evening Chapel?
HA:
PM:
Ztt
the mornin6>
you had to attend. If you were not ther
had *>«* Chapels
appreciation^f art""^ 3-ClaSS*
We Ld
Drf Murphy would pivePhy^clatlon of music; you name it, we had it.
looked forward to that
Babe^uth
? W6ek' Snd everyone
us informed about.
* W3S °ne °f the objects he kept
and
This Chapel was like an assembly program?
HA:
ItlL
PM:
Pe°Ple
°bJeCted
t0
»as because they
It wasn't devotional?
HA:
Waller for "BUssed^e^he51^^^^^ £?mplained strongly to Miss
lnds-"
song. And he raised a fuss OVPY
He did not like that
Women wea*"ing the stockings,
and the clock hose. It was rWoYjust "too suggestive." Once a VP^T-10?! 0n_tlle st°cking, and it was
poem, "In Gossiptown." i've
' r< £isenberg would read the
copy of it. There was never a morf "gr?tJed that I did not get a
classroom than J. L. Eisenber* It lnsP^ing teacher in the
come alive.
8- He could make even a dry subject
PM:
Is there anything else that occurs tn
-61-
u
v
you that was memorable, a time
or a person, perhaps or most enjoyable?
literature!*
f°r
™y
deSree-
1
enjoyed Miss Simpson, she taught
PM:
You did not have Miss Arnold or Miss Griffin?
HA'
from InefMcCl^mondf^she^Lled 3 S°°d teacher' 1ulte * contrast
recover. The ones livin. ^ .u a
°Ut °ne tlme; 1 "ever did
dorms who showed up late for
class, she would not
here and Dorothy Hangmen/was ridine 'iJh' 1 "aS drivinS from °ut
W1 th us'
Dorothy would come
like a snail, and Twuld «t L
n
take the bawiings out any Cger
^
Dr. Eisenberg was round*na ,m
Just did not go to class. So,
ClaSS' and Ada
said to me that I had better go^clasl
So^th
proiect we werp fn
w
' bo» there was some
was quite important for our* ?he had Eaid
"
She liked it, but she gave me a n 1 .
a little Buick Roadster.
I specialize in art, so I knew it was not
"^ suSSested that
C&Se I
1 wasn't UP
to her standards. I had iust cur W
Cv!a!!S t0° often0ne morning
we were doing water colors
T'H
before, and s'he he'd"ine^up and ZT/
TlT^V han*
see that this
person has done water colors before «'i Jold h r ?
she ignored me completely.
'
never had, and
PM:
an"adventure S'tiL""
HA:
HartzellsS
t0 SliPP6ry R°Ck ln
tha
-«er must have been
lrifts
-er by
were parked close to wAere the^rHvinrat'th8^
some interesting experiences.
PM
HA:
Sta"edWe
meWe had
Did the Branchton road follow the same route it does today?
Pretty much, except for where it comes down past our nl*™
nthrough one of our good fields. It really damaged ou? land
OnT^
commissioner came out and told us we did not have an itemized
hlm Z'd make an itemized account.
itC°w'bS°A
I itemized
it, but he did not agree with me. Some of them were rea lv Irv
nice to deal with, and you knew the ones you would vote for and the
the
ones you would vote against.
PM:
All of your classes were in the Old Main Building then?
HA:
Yes, at that time.
PM:
Did you have gym as a required class also, when you were in college?
HA:
Oh yes
Our senior year we had to have five days a week in teaching
gym. At our 50th anniversary some of us were reminiscing
Kennv
Hogg said he thought they would get out of it, since they "were
secondary teachers and did not need it. At the last minute they
-62-
312 a S£ His; •-;M S3
..
j
i j Vt4ni he could not graduate without i t .
Glenn
"
requirements^of the three year course, but it came time graduation,
they had to join us.
Where did you eat lunch?
Sometimes I carried my lunch, but most of the time I did not. Most
of the time I would not eat from the time I left the house until I
returned at night. I didn't like to pack a lunch. I did eat in
the dining hall the first nice weeks, and some of the food was
horrid. They had burned tomato soup. Josie Gould was very dizzy
once and he spilled some of that soup on me. Josie was a clown.
He was in a nature study class, under Clay Curtis Ruff, and he was
one of the ones who enjoyed irritating Clay Curtis. So he decided
he was going to discipline Josie, I forget what he had him do, so
Josie looked at him very earnestly, and as soon as he had his back
turned enough, he nudged Mable Dixon to look at how he could snap
his garter. You see we did not need any extracurricular
activities, we had our own entertainment. I forget what Josie had
done that displeased the Normal School, but they shipped him home.
To make sure that he got home, Mr. Cook took him home.
Who were some of the other folks from the area who were in school
with you?
Kathleen Adams. I don't know when she died. I know I heard from
Kathleen after my sister, Jo, died, that was in 1978.
Her brother
Dale had her move to Colorado, where she lived in a apartment, and
she enjoyed herself thoroughly, as you know she would. She could
see the funny side of everything.
-63-
R"k
or., HisCory Projooc
Alumnus: Oliver Gordon
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Where was you original home town?
OG:
Connelsville" UnSntom^^hat^rea'
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
between
Greensburg,
Fayette or Westmoreland County?
Westmoreland
Ann
i
farm out between Scottsdlle anrDawson3" h*16" "e "ere
could go to Scottsdale schools
kids bou8ht
"*
Did you play high school athletics?
Oh, yes.
I piayed football for four years.
What caused you to choose Slippery Rock as your college?
OG:
^er
H^^tro^u
^^ro^to^hL6
"? °f ^ S—1
married his sister and r^s^teS''o^elfep.
DK:
An in-law relationship then?
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
So he persuaded you to become a Slippery Rock student?
I wanted to go to school and didn't know where to PO
rh
7 said tc
go up there to Slippery Rock and T h*H t-h
£!
?
take up medicine, bSt he said to I2f^ ght ?aybe I#d like ^
C°Urse and 1 was
there two days and they asked me n
Physical Education a^velnjoye'd
°"r b°
DK:
You mean you had trouble carrying a tune?
OG:
Well at least I thought I did.
DK:
Other than your Physical Education teacher*
OG:
17 ^
imp^sio^o^yuf
°f^0th"
Ho
v
a^eep
At the time in the Physical Education department we had a Dr
Holmes. Yeah, Dr. Holmes. He used to say to me .
When I fircr
went up to school for some reason or another he used to call me
Jimmy, and I was too bashful to tell him, the coach I wasn't
Jimmy. All my life I was known as "Lefty," but theA all the kids
call me Jimmy, too. Dr. Holmes would say to me, "My you're
missing your calling if you don't go into medicine,"'but then, of
-64-
course, money was short and everything else, and I got a job in
physical education and we had a teacher up there named Linehart and
he was a great gymnast and I worked under him for two years, then
Cottrell came up.
DK:
I knew Dr. Cottrell.
OG:
Then you knew what kind of a gymnast he was.
DK:
Let me ask you another question. I happen to know your wife also is
a Slippery Rock student. Is that where you two met each other?
OG
Yes, she was a physical education major.
when I was a senior.
DK:
But you waited for her apparently.
OG:
No, we never went together until we taught at Avalon high school.
DK:
Oh, I see.
that.
OG:
Oh, no it wasn't.
DK:
I know that you have fond memories of Coach N. Kerr Thompson and I
also know you were on the 1925 championship team.
OG:
1924.
DK:
1924 state championship team. Slippery Rock's first state
championship. So would you share some of your football experiences
and your experiences with coach?
experiences
OG:
WH J t
Course she was a freshman
I thought that was college romance or something like
I J° l d
y° u ^ e f o r e .
01d
Coach, before we'd go on the field
DK:
That was sort of like "win one for the Gipper."
OG:
That's right.
DK:
h^waH good W motivator? Vatlng
OG.
DK:
OG:
y°U t 0
effort.
Do
you think
He was. We'd go through hell f«r v
«
had a 200 pounder on it
We wprit- l-i™' ? U r t e a m » 1 don't think we
• we went through the season undefeated.
Could you name some of the srhnni * ,
Slippery Rock, other than the other
J l a y e d during your career at
c n e r s t a t e normal schools.
Well, yes. We went down t-n Mr n •
off them. An then we, who else thai? C o U e S e a ™i licked the pants
r e w a s 3 team down in Ne
'
New
-65-
them the BurnS M' We we« d°™
andSplayed'them^and Itl
P y a tnem and they all were semi-pro and we beat them.
DK
OG
DK:
What was your position?
weighedn:bo™l65.and
P°UndS; the tackle
^side me~I think he
What was his name?
Coll F PP
College.
a
t k i•
i*
brother were playing at Thiel
I believe Tommy Hollaran was coaching up thfre then
T
quirterbLkear^chhaVC^en-an?t\erHarb0r- ^ tS^asa
I think he would hair k neSle Tech at that time beat Notre Dame,
at Pitt.
^b6en 3n A11-American if he would have stayed
DK:
OG:
What sort of an offense did you run, single wing?
trickSplfvs
?ourse' the coach would come up with some
this one man. I've forgotten where he
flicker°then S 'd^l1^
cflled it a fle^
U8#
travel 50 miles to
see that play.
^^he Said
nit* el
Y
W1ISre pnh'
m
Z remember
DK:
It worked pretty good then?
OG:
It worked.
DK:
Did you do much passing in that era?
OG:
Oh yes, we did quite a bit. We had a fullback named Nick Mahler
I 11 never forget him. Boy, oh, boy, when he was sent through the
line you better get out of there because he'd break your back
If
he hit you, you knew it.
DK:
Was he bigger than the average of the rest of them?
OG:
Yes.
DK:
A little heavier?
OG:
Then we had Rick Goldberg. He was there one year and later went to
Pitt and Jock turned him into a center and he played there for
three years, I guess. So we had some good boys.
DK:
I have heard and, of course, I don't know, because it was before my
era, but I have heard that in that period of the 1920s, which was
very much a sports minded era, that a lot of older players played
on football teams. Did you have any older players or were they
late teens-early twenties?
-66-
OG:
T think there was only one that I can remember that was older than
the rest of us. Goldberg may have been a little older, Nick
Mahler. Did you hear of Mae Taylor?
DK:
I knew Mae Taylor quite well, and I knew her sister Ruth.
sister Ruth taught me in elementary school.
Her
OG-
Nick Mahler. His father was a barber and he had learned the trade
and he'd cut our kids' hair and if he saw Mae down on the campus,
out he'd go and finish our haircut later.
DK:
He was pretty interested in Mae then?
OG:
Oh, yes!
I taught with Mae, her sister taught me in elementary school and
then I taught with her at Slippery Rock High School for many years
before she retired.
OG:
Is she still living?
DK:
No. Mae has passed away.
away.
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
No, doesn't ring a bell with me.
OG:
There she is (points to a photograph).
DK:
No.
OG:
Her father was the treasurer or something at the school.
The Crawford girls.
I don't know when, but she has passed
Jeanie Crawford, I think it was.
were there?*" ^ e ^^ e v e • • • • Was there a Mr. McClymonds when you
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
BurSar when 1 was thereAUen° n wi£h whom"Fli
»is son
Office
graduated, is now working in the Business
OG:
orSotten what he was •
As 1
said when they asked me to si*
t
u
r
n
e
the name of Bill Welsh a lH^f
d over. I had a roommate by
into coming up with me' UP H /° m my , t e r r i t o r y- I got him talked
o u ^ schedules changed and were sent
up to . . .
DK:
Did you know Dr. Hamm?
e heard of him and saw pictures but I didn't know him.
Was Dr.
E i s e nberg p r e s ident
while you were there?
-67-
0G:
DK:
Yes.
"hat memories or impressions did you have of Eisenberg?
OG:
aS He^ate/bec^e rb ^a r?°Tate the" by the name
ofdArtCprassy
y
later became the head of the state penal system.
DK:
Yes indeed, I remember the name.
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
The sister-in-law wasn't real popular apparently?
Sr^hpr11 £all6d hBu Mpink little-W Li^an Johnson. I'll never
forget her. Have you heard the name Alexander Delavaddy?
No, that's not familiar to me.
niehtdINw^hr«?^^ COul?n't Set bey°nd tb* reception room. One
flying d°m the hal1 and
you could seek fire in Lr eyes from^
me beinS there.
r.o,,iS
v7
Before she
think ?ayshonlH KS ^ime 1 S^id t0 her' "Miss Johnson, don't you
t0 Slng in °Ur society?n
"You know
14V
And she told me,
W
ZU- VAI
5° g6t T0 KNOW ? BOY'S NOTE." And I said to
hA wae
Alexander Delavaddy would"--they called him Sunday-he was with me
I said we'd like to call on you. But my gosh we
for te
get through,the girls' dormitory. And she invited us'up
for tea and Sunday night we went. The girls all had their heads
poppin' out.
DK.
They couldn't believe that male could get into North Hall
they were still very strict on that even when I was an
undergraduate, it's quite a different situation today.
OG:
Yeah. I've forgotten the name of the teacher who took us to New
York. To an AAU Gymnastic meet. It was related to the Olympics
I'm not sure--but outside of that--I always had a good feeling for
6
Slippery Rock.
DK:
I've heard you've been a loyal alumnus ever since.
OG:
We try to be. When I was taken into the Hall of Fame. I was called
on and pretty nervous. As I told you before, I got kicked in the
head and was out for a couple of hours and coach never put me in
the ballgame (1924 championship football game) and it broke my
heart at the time. Coach, I know down in his heart.... I expected
to start. And he never put me in. I think he was afraid I'd get
hurt again.
DK:
You did have another year of eligibility--was your senior year a
good year?
-68-
Well
OG:
That was ay senior year.
The fall of 1924 and I graduate in 1925.
DK:
It was sort of you last opportunity then.
OG:
Yes, it was the last opportunity for me to play.
DK:
Where was you first job after graduation?
OG:
Charleroi.
DK:
And how long were you at Charleroi?
OG:
Three years. Then I went to Pitt for my Bachelor degree and then I
got my Master's there too.
DK:
Did you teach physical education and coach football at Charleroi?
OG:
I had the Jr. High team.. The last year I was there we won the
Washington County championship.
DK:
Where was your next job?
OG:
Avalon. And that's where Fran and I got together. She had the
girls and I had the boys. I was the basketball coach and assistant
football coach. From there I went into the city. I started out at
Prospect, went to--I was there about three or four years. We had
baseball. ^ Three city championship and one runner up. Then I went
to Alderdice and I had Herbie Douglas in track. A big school. I
had Herbie Douglas who later went into the Olympics.
DK:
Did you know Lon Colbum?
OG:
Yes, I did.
DK:
knew'him
OG:
Did you know Art Dean?
DK:
No.
Where did you run into him?
^ JUSt °utside Slippery *»«*•
*
OG:
of oourIe"in r i942 P 1 went™ 5 ?"V**" 1 f i r S t w e n t U P t h e r e ' ^
Then I w a ; a? J o n r i y a N a v * a n d came back in 1946.
y e a r s a n d w e nt to Perry and was
there until I retired in 1969
DK
How old were you when you went into the Navy?
OG:
Late thirties.
DK:
Not a particularly young
OG:
No.
man
to be in WWII.
-69-
I see from the photo on the mantle you were officer material.
0G:
I came out a Lt. Commander.
DK:
I see, that's really excellent.
Where did you serve?
center and*then Seattle ancTnut UTA
into commission a^d" t
Tea
t
and 125 crew.
DK:
All navy personnel these stevadores?
OG:
Yeah, black.
DK:
Halsey fleet.
OG:
Yeah.
DK:
And you were discharged in 1945?
OG:
1946.
DK:
then?"and
t?,?iami at a fleet
replacement
I hM'steW
£lp
stevadoes on ship
did y°U g° baCk int° teachinS and
coaching right away
OG:
When I came back they sent me to Conroy to finish the year. I came
back in February. I was there a couple of years and then went to
Perry as assistant coach to Chester Smith and he retired and I
coached then until I retired in 1969.
DK:
That's Perry High School?
OG:
Yeah, as head football coach.
DK
You coached until 1969 when you retired. You've had a pretty lone
retirement then.
OG
Yeah, I've really enjoyed it.
DK
Are you a regular attender at Homecoming and Alumni Day?
OG
Yes. We go up every year. As long as Mrs. Thompson could come
over. We'd go and get here and take her to the luncheon and take
her back. She's a lovely old person.
DK:
And she remembers you well?
OG:
Absolutely.
DK:
When you were a student and a football player, was the team around
Mrs. Thompson much? Did they get the opportunity to get acquainted
with her?
We've done a lot of traveling too.
-70-
OG:
Oh, yes, she was like a mother to us. She had dinner with us in
South Hall. She had a big table set up and Doc Eisenberg was there
and Art Prassy.
DK:
I believe he was also at George Jr. Republic.
OG:
He was at George Jr. Republic then at Morganza, then the head of the
penal system.
DK:
I didn't know until this evening when you told me that he was a
Slippery Rock graduate.
OG:
He didn't graduate but attended for a while. Then he went to Thiel
for one year. I don't know if he graduated from there or not.
I'll never forget Doc Eisenberg was there too and conversation got
slow and Art looked down at him and said, "Well, Doc, is your
stomach touching the table yet?" and you know he had a great big
one.
DK:
No, I didn't know.
OG:
Yeah, he did. For a long time then the baseball team played on
Alumni day and most of the boys we played with went back for that.
DK:
So how did the old fellows do against the young fellows?
OG:
Well, we didn't do too bad. I'll never forget--for my size I could
can stil^Mt-long ball. I remember one game the coach said, "You
can still hit can t you Jimmy!" That's what he called me.
DK:
He never stopped calling you
OG
DK:
He did, huh?
Jimmy?
I never told him it wasn't Jimmy.
Well, he probably knew, but .
Maybe you just looked like a Jimmy to him and that's why he call you
OG:
night at practice we^ad^o^un^he'inn 5 a b o u t h i m 7
d3Sh'
with us and he would beat every one of us.
DK:
OG
DK
OG:
DK:
A b °"t
every
H® W ° U l d
run
Now he was a big man--that surprises me.
Oh, he was a big man!
I didn't think he could be so fast.
He
ne was. He was
I be! i
v.
American Team - - i ' m not sure.
made AU
Oilcan--Walter Camps All
I knew he was a graduate of
D o Y ou
anything about how he got to Slinofr^D S , l i p p e r y R o c k never heard anything about that ? y °Ck f r o m U^inus? I ' v e
-71-
know
OG:
No, I don't. He we>ntschool, I'm not sure.
UPPery
.
Rock--may have been the high
DK:
was a local person5'
S66n that in his cre
Maybe he
OG:
from Slippery Rock, JimhMillslnSi wa dl?nt know that Jim graduatec
I forgot to mention him playing for me
^ S°rry afterwards that
DK:
OG
DK
OG
DK;
OG:
What high school did he play for you?
Perry.
At Perry. He was a Perry graduate.
Yeah.
«=
.*•- *<• -
-
Oh, I met his wife; she's a beautiful little girl.
DK:
they'had'f^rather
OG:
DK:
"1
right.
1 thinh
Yeah, I'd like to see Jim again.
How many of you high school players--like Tin. M -T H
played college ball?
Mills--went on and
OG:
different lolll&s™ I^ju^n't'reL'mbe'r'th^l^'115tGr'
DK:
And this was one of you goals, to get your boys into college?
OG:
YZ
crazy and say, '"What do yZ^iVsly^"'f'""5
Right away, "C's and D'/- Not good enough'
had
too and there was not way to get them in on a scholarship.
DK:
Have you been following the controversy on Proposition 42?
OG:
Yes.
DK:
What are your opinions on the NCAA ruling?
0G:
iV«l\Zell.y°,1 If 1 har 5?,g° t0 C°llege now«
For the simple reason--! didn't hit the books.
-72-
:'d
never make it
Just enough to git
DK:
So you think there
would have been in
and all the people
-you wouldn't have
0G:
That's right.
DK:
Well, that's interesting. One thing that disturbs me. I have had
some students in class at Slippery Rock that got football
scholarships to large university's who were not able to carry a
full load of classes and, therefore, ended their eligibility
without a degree. Then they had to hustle anyway possible to get
back to school to finish their degree. I always sort of resented
that.
0G:
Oh, yes. I think you can blame that on the coaches because they
knew very well that they couldn't make the grade and give them
courses that meant nothing. I'll tell you one: Jock Sullivan, he
never asked how big a boy was his first question was "What kind of
student is he?" You know, most of his boys were either in dental
school or medical school.
DK:
I did know that an awful lot of players from that era were out of
dental school. That speaks well!
OG:
You bet it does.
DK:
That what I hear.
OG:
He was at the Hall of Fame dinner the night I was taken in.
DK:
At Slippery Rock?
OG:
Yeah, he had his whole coaching staff there.
DK:
What year were you taken into the Slippery Rock Hall of Fame?
OG:
1986.
DK
Who were some of the others taken in?
OG
have been real opportunities lost
If that rule
effect, you wouldn t have g° t t e £ l n t o college
you effected ever since--throughout your careerhad the opportunity to help them either?
Joe Paterno's the same way, isn't he.
I hear he's pretty demanding in his players.
B°b PhlHPs.
<=eorge Stoness, Janet Swab
DK:
Yes, I know Ed Hepe--several of t-w
n
HeSS' 1 Went t o scho°
with him. I do know several of them' n?
right up at the top there
T.ef- ™
' _>
course, there you are
played baseball and football as a ' 1 : . " N a t i v e
Scottsdale, PA;
the AAU Olympic Gymnastic Trials in w
v",® a n d P a r t i -cipated in
of the undefeated Rocket team in m?®" I° r k C l t y i n 1 9 2 9 • Member
And this was something you Sdb?t^
" N ' K e r r Thompson."
president of you senior class
" " i t h me'
"ere
OG:
Oh, yeah.
-73-
Fran^orHn ^eliing me a11 the stories you should be telling me.
Fran Gordon) You were really impressed with him I suppose
OG
We've had 49 good years; in March.
DK
That's good.
OG
One son.
DK
Does he live locally?
OG
£eci£ education.^ovmship*
(To
^ches i» the Pittsburgh schools.
DK
I see.
OG
He went to Westminster.
DK
Couldn't talk him into Slippery Rock?
OG
He went to Slippery Rock for his Master's degree.
DK
Well, that's all right then.
Master's there.
And where did he go to school?
We'll forgive him if he got his
&
OG:
Well his mother had her physical education up there and he knew a
lot of people up there so that's where he went.
DK:
Do you have any other memories of Slippery Rock you'd like to share?
OG:
Well, I started telling you about them asking me to sing when I
changed over to physical education. I can't remember the Prof's
name. .
anyway. We opened the door and walked in, Bill and I
and he said "Are you boys up here to play football?" And I said
No sir. I m here to get an education, but I'm going to play
football." And he said, "Then get the hell out of my class." And
it was full of girls. We went back down stairs and Miss Green
secretary to Doc Eisenberg gave us a note and we went back up
opened the door, and he said the same thing.
We went down the stairs again and old Doc was there
He
always wore a frock coat--tailed. He went flying up--2nd or 3rd
floor, I forget now, and we got in the class alright. There were
three of us. One guy did the work in English--he got a B. My
roommate copied from him and got an A. I flunked.
DK:
Now you didn't say who you copied from.
0G:
I copied from my roommate.
DK:
All the same and three different grades. We probably ought not ask
what that professor's name was; he must not have been a very
efficient professor.
-74-
OG:
I think he left that year.
DK:
I hope we don't have too many like that now.
DK:
Tell us about the practice where the players were getting worked up
OG:
We were at it hot and heavy in scrimmage. Coach happened to look
around and Doc Eisenberg coming across the field. He said "Chr"
1St
sake here comes old Doc, now be sure and watch your goddamn
language."
Then the next day at chapel--I always had to open and close
the gym at noon; that was my scholarship--I came in late. We weiassigned seats but (since I came in late) I sat in the back and all
the professors sat in the back and the coach sat back there and
se?HWa«TCOmmenting ab°Ut US °n the PlflyinS field up there
He
was UP to watch them practice and they were perfect
neuer
any foul language or any slang »
fonk Hmen"
I
looked over et the coach and he had a greft big grin o^his face.
DK:
OG:
°K:
Weil, I suppose that in the violence and sweat of foothill ^
be hard to keep your tongue under control.
would
You bet it is!
Juni°r
SW L
0"?is:.--'
b1.; s*"?
tba11
the most important things in your life6
field
was one of
OG:
much help^from the^ t r ' t i r o ^ r • S o m e t i m e s y o u d i d n ' t g e t
ab°Ut the «*ofl
Principals. Some ofXm"ere very
agaln
had one assistant coach .
now^he
"
But. there, I
for over 20 years and had never sot^f head c°acl> • • . I coached
°"f "leave the building at 6-30- the r
/ U' 1 was the last
going home at 3:05 and we got the s^e salary
«•«*•" were
DK:
0G:
There was no supplemental pay?
No, none at all
Thpn T
weren^t'coach•:°aCheS had ""^in'the P°itt b '^th* w« 1 pa»a
oachlng and they were viviZt Jlttsburgh schools and
T uaJ ? '
e
3nd at th" time
a
: Lelefed President of S^Colch
d
to pa? «
hour of work
IWwanted^"10"' ^
costing $50 OOOfor ^? WaS gonna give us
?v,P3y US for 120
S Sports and^hey ^nted
Said iC Was
back for $30 000
T'n
f
rget
Di
tlme
talking to the personneVr* °
<* Myers at°tha?
us f°r 120 hours of work ?lract°r--he said, "You're wm •1"le
much m public rpla«-spoke up and T
. ®.willing to PaY
ld him' ^ Put that
doubt I did %n n- 110nS-" Th® personal J
U p a n d "id, "Now v ^ " S a l d h e d i d n > t
120 hours of work
hours in before fA •-??? S right. "Well c
gonna pay us for
1 Set my 120
before football is over; is it
^ all right for to quit
-75-
coaching?"
DK:
The answer was no.
They didn't agree with that?
0G:
pay us/
DK
0G
DK
t agree With that at a11-
"hat year did you finally
They finally did start to
start getting supplementary pay?
I came back in 1946. 1949-50.
lhat late before you ever got paid for all that coaching?
OG
said he wouldn'tepay°us until^il^he^th38 sup"intendent then.
extracurricular activities g^li^ KoSdt^ ££
DK:
OG:
DK
Of course you should have.
They finally came through. As I said T
-J
organization at the time
Thf i n
? president of the
esident of the school committee
said to me, "I had all mv
She sa^, what
they were gonna pfy^s andTsaid"-^6"^1^
I'll take my time trade and J
' P?rso?ally, I don't want it."
6 a"d my executlve board said they take their
time trade/
What do you mean by "time trade?"
OG
"aIingrhomeylnS **
teaCh"S
Masses while we were
taaah
DK:
I see.
0G:
no°thingrSBirsIS' I?'n'JkUldn;My°U rath6r haVe that than
$4000. Head coach and he's go£°3 0^4 assistants*^?et%ar°Und
how many.
DK:
Several assistants.
OG:
I had one.
DK
OG
assistants.
I ve forgotten
Yes.
Anything you want to say to wrap up about Slipperv RnnV
memories or attachments to Slippery Rock?
aT^
y°U
I have two grandsons and they've been up there and i-u^r
tQ g°
to school and I hope they do
I'd be Willi™ t o L y
to go up there. I think it's a fine institution and thtvveTra
fob Aebersold311^'
^y°U
DK:
H
You went there in 1920.
"nd
a better
President'"than
I went there in 1950 and I agree with
everything you said. I had a fine education. I went out and was
able to compete at other graduate schools and with students from
-76-
much larger and more prestigious schools. I'm proud of
undergraduate days at Slippery Rock. I have always been n
be a faculty member there. We're in complete agreement Pr°Ud
OG
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
DK:
OG:
Oh, there's one thing I haven't mentioned.
faculty member named Laurie Stepanian.
Do you have
to
woman
I know who she is, not a personal friend, but I know who she is
I led her father and mother down the aisle when they were married
Really.
Well do you know her brother Leo then?
Yes, very well.
Leo, of course, is a lawyer in Butler.
Yeah, in fact, I've seen Leo.
How was it that you became involved in the Seen*
ln the Stepanian wedding?
r and m°ther lived in rhari
r.5
"
"
enJ°Yed
v
.
every minute of it.
-77-
s. " v f e s r -
1
1
< ~ »
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Joseph Frazier
Interviewer: James Mennell
JM:
were'about £ g"Zn^yoVexoe/r'•"}**
«- -d w
edu"tion.
your first memory of your education?0"
What's
our community^thfn^e cai^^into'thi^ the.educational set up i
posed. I was bom in PleagL 5 ii
n-qUeStlon which you have
Township, Butler^ointv
i ^Cy ?istrict. Miller Creek
is now the Cloverleaf on route 422"ieS?* a.stones throw fr°m wha;
Park. West of Prospect
'• lead^ng lnto Moraine State
I enterpH L? f ' Pennsylvania, that would be.
achool. Pleasant
Valley School. Which was located'i3
which we have described- on err^ S east of tbe interchange
I went to one of five or six'school"°^°^cupied bY the park office.
Were ln Muddy Creek
Township and these were Wat-fS °
*
for the convenience of the nenni1R ^arious areas of the township
attfnding the schools,
There was the Butter school rhpW
school, the Pleasant Vallev'which °°mfleld.sch°o1. the Burnside
called the Frazier school and 1-h nt ™entloned which was formerly
I believe, with a n^e" do not recaU
°ne °ther'
from the school.
recall. We lived about 1/4 a mile
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
You were closer then, than we are today.
don't^recall^ever riSInftfschoo'l^t I' "****- ™
I
S *b°Ut th®
days before automobiles, my early school
davs^Nn
community owned an
t
Jnooi days. No one m our
would have been 1918
That woul^hav611^6176^1 SC^?q1 whicb I believe
eX?e5iencedo recall going with my^o oJder
I e^aS
*
lu™*es
with them under some bushes. I ate with ihe
days then I ate with the fellas
Thfac«
f
first few
by some local person who had got his/her certificatio^bv1^*1311®1111
county examination. In my elementarv exner*Jtii T £ 5 Y taklnS A
who had attended college/ My elg^wSde leache^ /h °ne te3Cher
college a total of si/weeks7 A summer session at
"'Tv
Normal School it was then.
session at Slippery Rock
As you look back does it really make a difference? n™»c a „«n
education really make a difference in an elementary school leachfl?
I Z11/ / t°es- how^er' 1 had v"y g°od teachers who served verv
well at that time. They were dedicated people, I'm sure they would
not measure up to the quality of many teachers today but bv the
same token I'm sure they surpass many. Their education
compensated, I feel I got an education that served it's purpose
Many of what some people would call the frills of education were
-78-
not available to us and that is a lack. I'm sure I have feltsomewhere through my life but. The curriculum was very sinrole
you can surmise. We did get rhetoric, a good deal of hisfn^
grammar. I'm really not in a good position to conmarp rn u a
7' h"
Sure buC 1 think
bettered
we got" "
better education
m the use of numbers, s p e l sometimes
l i n g a n d the
fundamentals of grammar possibly as thi case now^a"fys in m
blanket ""Option of today's education^
any means".
JM:
?^ —
hzs
xtr
relationship
between the
teacher and parent?
JF:
would goVtoUlsdchoayinr^ Jo the" teag°b°d
The parents
rarely interfere as is "he cas "today"" °CCasionaUy but wouT''
JM:
Why do you think that was?
JF:
he"dnJhetmesrayWthaJ mln"„«fpr^CT" h" the teacher, and we've
got one at school. I cL'"recln mv 3 WhiPPinS « home if they
png^s^rb^tT^
"never " ^
v^f^oot
"po6!0 J "go
an afternoon and sit in 7 But I
T" or twice a year lusfffr
complernt or suggestion to the teajw ab"/^ V6ry lbttle
country school.
Slngle 1,1081
important criteria in a
J"1
Was there much problem with discipline?
JF:
N°t
JM:
JF:
by the time 1 „as
,
- • * ~
:
.
Their early twenties?
In their early twenti^c
-
s
r
,
r
s
- - >
v
And ^ went
rlLc"era^haeStShetreor"a"erOUanSd"n'ba8veOW:
0t
She
could
6 and t0 test
tells of one incidentw?
control
they
f
teachers got a strong Z "
^Uy IfLZ
' -Now my father
situation. She took on°Unf lady to c°nie in wh runninS out several
and grabbed him bv th* °f the c"lprits on!*tered the
teacher's desij and told"*""" °f tha neck and °J theRingleaders
out. Well he got tirerf
t° stay there i,!h ?h5ew hlm under the
desk and made a bolt for t-h a afte* awhile and i StraiShtened
the door and she n3>? h PS6t the teacher's
UP the hickory rod
-79-
Sfef0lir? ^im fnd <;au6ht him and gave him the whaling of his
after il,^ incidents like that and she had control and there
But if you read Edear°F
w®" d™pped out and scho°l went on.
eiv*l\ZTiZ
^dSar.Eaggelston's The Hoosier Schoolmaster this
g
p etty much a picture of what went on in the generation
6 teacher in my day
too°b!tmnortoNth thEre rS StlU 3 t6St °f
68
66
considerably by that^ime ' * ^
^ave quieted down
What did you study?
toward%£
H
Mostly grammar and arithmetic?
C°ur®es for the
seventh and eighth grade students
Was there any homework?
Yes there was always homework. Spelling particularly and
masted LPrtler^ HoPefully the other subjects co^ld be
b®CaU?e with eiSht grades in the school of
course thereSw
were reciting
Now n ^ 1'"a•a "udylnS whlle °ther students
one of m^t Sch£ e^L^cL^nTs^oo^ilfr^
in len^laUe^ livens ^th^er SSTrJZS?
for tLel^frC^deeSar?ttae?i^Tg?Lhifteen °r
tW6nty mi™teS
Before you moved on to another grade?
Yes, before we moved on to another prarip
cA
for all the grades and sometimes maybe a couple of grades would^e
combined. Maybe grades five and six might be combined for a
b3^£da^yCt^oSsnmeSpurposefttNormallyteachWgradef if^here^ere^5*1
student in a grade, but sometimes if there was one stiid#»r>tstudents they might be combined with one or two in another prxr\*°•
certain subjects. I attended this country school f^r six yfars
From age six.
From age six. It was an eight year school, but I was promoted over
two of the grades, which I may have mentioned to you previously
and I finished m six years, and I was not yet twelve years f ^ e
when I was ready to enter the local high school and my father waf
not quite sure whether I should go or not. He was afraid the
-80-
larger boys might beat up on me, but we talked it over a n d
i ^
it up pretty largely to me and I wanted to go on and I got alon
fine with the boys even though I was the youngest and the smallfst
JM:
JF:
Why did you go on to high school in a rural community'
you feel you should go on to high school?
made
orS1arLbelieVu my y°uthful age was one reason. I wasn't old
or large enough to go out and engage in heavy ohvsirff
, ld enough
alWays
ver
had
y ^h interested in m7goinf to scho i a°d
had wanted to become a school teacher herself bu? Je ®ch?Gl- she
the
opportunity. Her parents would not permit her to To
elementary school. They said they needed hprV g °n bey°nd the
and a°
tearh
^W3nted
Sat an education
In fact ?
7
^er encoura^eie^t^d™
dlSh s=hool.
both my parents were in favor of
But
father would have been very happy if t hfd d *
school. Now my
acont nued my
education at the conclusi™ of the hi^ a ,
have stayed at home to work on the f*™ K
J *nd then 1 would
way, he simply didn't offer any^*^
in my
examinational©^get
JF-'
Uh^
«« -y heid
Oh absolutely.
JM:
admitted"^
t0 flfteen
P««nt flunked the tests and were not
JF:
?«t in cases now they^er37' they Bera prett^tiff'
Pa"icular,
m all fairness t-T
geared, 0f cour.n ®tiff examinations,
haVe to sa?
particular use f o r
things which student-* V*!?
lf
you
we
0day
have
n°
wallpaper it woSd'taP
" goina to %
t0 wallpaper
flSure out how much
of lumber could h
rL
a
h- much grain could^e st™ Sa° °a*y^ ^ ^
in—
M:
YepVi
•
tl .
11,6
.?
J'
test was hard?
A" rs.2
J
studied' TthiL3?.eaSy test- There „
arithmetic, a test in'his?16'' °Ver to "^grandd' °n 6Very subJect "e
composition writing, ££!?*• physioloLS 3"ffaUShter a test in
' Yes' a goodly number
of3r^ Phe °nefi recall g' ?rithmatic,
°er of students did In " as 1 think about
hese and they were
-81-
they cared to. ° recall^n^ repeat,the 6rade and take it again if
Wh° WaS taking ^e telt
the year I was taking iJ
He^
^ke it on the third^ound
H^ went on% ^r°Und' but he didn,t
the community, but he couldn't cut thp n, t- S°me t S°°d citizen of
he mustard a* far as passing
the test was concerned.
JM:
They didn't let him through?
JF:
No, they
JM:
dldn,t let hlm throughi
they didn,t automatlcaUy
When did automatic promotion begin to come in?
JF:
for°this^ecame^uch^ore'apparent^in°the
JM:
XT#*«. L^r.
Not
before then?
before that^ate!^6
JM:
JF:
JM:
ss'^ P"Sh
W*S ^ great
^ount of it in our community
What high school did you go to?
Portersville Muddy Creek Joint- hui, c i. i
and Muddy Creek Township cooperated fnd°W1r^b•'Tllle Borough
consisting of two room/ t-wJ•t
built a high school
$10,000. My father was'on the school bofrd^1^1^ itSelf cost
thought this was an exorbitant Trl
5
5hf time- He
to build a building,
That building is still used t-nrtav r _,spe
expanded, severalL'LvV"^111'' Tt has baa»
elementarY
school for the Slippery Rock Area Schoo^cLtrict"
What's it called, Portersville?
JF:
now route 488. Of course that was route 422^
school that is
488 at the present. But previous to thai- i-h
£ime' but its
school right in Portersville Borough--held in'the^dd^i^
Two teachers were employed and a curtain Vf>l *1
Fellows large
Home,
5
auditorium to separate the
teacLrs You
m°re they remain the'same.
We talk^bout^
Middle School here at Slippery Rock and where they hive th!
classroom with as many as four teachers in ri,. „
, the °Pen
Well this was pretty Lch an open"ussroom'in ST.^"
Y schoolsYou see the wheel is constantly being reinvented
To
JM:
JF:
IT T
Did you go to school when they had just the curtain across?
I did for a half a year and, after I had been there for i,au
the new school was completed and we the students did t-hp m •3 yefr'
the books and so forth, so we had a moving day and 1Tj2™"g °f
the new school and we then had three teachers in the new school°
-82-
JM:
JF:
JM:
So one teacher taught two grades?
Yes, there was a division of the subjects.
How was high school different from elementary school?
JF:
dld not hava in the
elementary°schoolWe g'jT h^V^u
the old
New England days, but we didn't^ave it in th"37 baCk
Latin, we had algebra, of course we d „
try. We had
fpr s t s » » s c,d a °
with a physics lab and
chemistry lab.
JM:
JF*
JM:
'
science department also
°h, you did have a lab?
IrS'»
-C LIDO
a Sma11
small lab
lahWe
had a
IT
«-K,-
I
&a5*MK>
-re
JF:
No, I don't think t-ha*-h
it Should be taking u^th
course higher educfr?
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
*"™M-
•»« — -
•
Pe°ple who *erf com^1
tlme and space to K
j
it was just
something
to attend
- 22 S. •.
"<&•
^
numbers ^""ngths of it were
Prepared te^t^ T
g" school.
^
y
1
SCh°ol?
'»
think we had well
Thsy w©iT0 col 1
students who were not doin
° °f whatever. Thera t. ^
lng Was
t0° WeH
concernpf6 Was a cettain
would h ' ®ut n°rmally the
P£ «=- S p3S S S?? r -."
afraid 0f having hi*
everyone
6 nis material
-83-
locker at schooWe'haS desk^to'store' wrVT*^* thing aS j
property and I don't recall a cincri * ^ books and our personal
school/ It may have happened W8}? lnStance of thievery at our
if it happened
PPened but I m not aware of it and I doubt
JM:
Do you remember when the lockers came in?
JF:
No.
JM:
Pretty good indicator of moral change when the school lockers came
JF:
here'at'slipperyCRockhin
^1
' 1 t0ok a
of course, there even there I
'tf Vere lockers there and,
at the time yet a
problem of stealing, it was a problem of ^
students didn't move frnm ni
convenience because
it was necessary to have a storaee^l0 °laSsl?°m 3 6reat daal and
lockers.
storage place in the hallway and
JM:
attended^ but/no locksmyS6lf'
11161:6 were
lockers in the school I
JF:
here''was"the'proximity to'X^mff ""j b° be
the size of the school. Now that can°wnity an<*
JM:
JF:
JM:
repetitive
smallness of
a bit
the
Regardless of the age?
I."™ 3r.J™ Sei.0™.""':!*;;
~«-t.
.lsht
.... »
t.
When did you decide to go on to college?
JF:
^"personally'said'when
^Mgh SCh°°
that's it. Encouragement from my mofter^olrl'd''^
Slippery Rock for a college catalog which I dfd
e V°"rlte t0
wrote for a catalog and placed it ww/t
°' so she
stumble over it and I got to reading it and°T k m°re °r less
So I Willingly enrolled when the time ca^e but it^o
a.llttle bit
Of gentle persuasion on the part of my mother to
in it. So I enrolled in college when I stiH
V® ln5erested
d 3g6
sixteen. Well people often ask me was thaj L advantav'
disadvantage. Well, socially it was a little bit of a® °r
disadvantage, I would say. Academically, I never find )f
disadvantage and, I think, in the overall picture I wild 3
it any differently, things being what theylere
I'm '"l n0t d°
-84-
necessarily advocating that people skip grades todav
it#S
n0t
3
Z°°d
male SV^ofugS"
JF-
ide*-
T t-hi i
L
it waff
think in my situation i \
it was because I didn't have the necessary competition in
?ybe
Sma11
group to have challenged me had I done otheSe
many bright kids around today
Ihenar 1™ ' r
,
" are
steady youngster a challenge to stay in a grade where^e"is^ *
th3t
1
yfwL^thatf ^
d
" y°U
h
a
-
to
That was in the fall of 1927.
S"h£gT
.
.
..
.
.
..
.
..
.
.
.
. you
„a
.
„
t
Wy .
.
.
.
.
.
ftsts S S K H X
K
Really?
JR:
Oh yes
-.2A£ss
a Vi-j v
percentage but aS"1'86'
1 wouldn't
be able t„ . .
SlipperyURock they"™' 3 Mrs"wc2yf whTltm ?.student before7
lives here in
The Dickers
£ y suSSe«ed that the Ch^K
&
rss rjcj"™
;££'•""
- oIS UT S«-"VV
over to talk to Mrs rhf ^
the first student she ^
suPPosed
and
supervision
college where
she agreed to V u
S°.we went
betweenHthree^nd^our^tud^n^s^^ thereafter bor^tuljen^s^and^ept
JM:
JF:
atu^ ff
No.
h^^^have your own kitchen,
next
charged us a $1 oo
you could
a ri
meals.
And
Today a
door
I l - T d - - a n d
$he d.
e paid her a $1 00 a
f°r"
the seco'nd^eaTl^
OUrSe" rUral education to te°aU rbeatnd
I
c
Why did you enroll for * r
-85-
"
1
ru^al
school. . .
JF.
JM:
JF:
JM:
JF:
Well I didn't know anything about city education
I had npvpr b>aar>
around the city much and my ^parents said well since you grew up in
2th ?n 17 and you know the country I think you better prepare to
than -F R 3 rur
school and two years was cheaper and much quicker
763
Ind wharT " ^ that S6emed t0 be the loS^al course to'take
tSo otW ft?? Ss°lng Zu Sayl the second year that I was in college
that time were staying with Mrs rhamhpre
A
we made arrangements with Mrs. Chambers to cook our own meal but
You were saying what it cost you every year in school.
year 1 "aS ln sch°o1 total expenses for everything Sitlnn6
tuition, books, room, board--cost me $600. The second yea?$40of
$400.
SeU::steifh°°if and
°£irTt^oS
Es>
^•aifid"S:o^
JM:
In two years.
JF:
In two years.
JM:
One banana split in two years
P-p" e^edl^tKthe ^ame
becLse
JM:
What kind of students were there, what classes did t-v.oxr
7
how much money did they have, what were they like?
*
'
JF:
depression'years^getting llllV^
^ ^
did not have a lotSof monev
ihev w»n deprf\ss1™- Most ""dents
means I would say. That they would be illl'
very ordinary
in those days. In relation to other people they were^ildle60?16
An occasional person maybe had a little hitmiddle class,
certainly there was no
No fast cars and all that sort of thing?
-86-
, _ vQ,r4«cr a car. I don't recall of a
I don't recall of any student having a ca
single car on the college campus in those days.
, , . .
aee of college students with the
Wasn't this the beginning of that age 01
thin^
raccoon coats and hip flasks and that sort of thing.
11
amnnp d.M
the people
that I knew.
I'm sure
Not in our "liege
or notnot among
^
^ raccoon
there were certain students in th
don't think I think
coats, I don't recall of any raccoon coats
I don t think,
think
that must have been a more wealthy community than this.
Was there much of a college atmosphere in Slippery Rock in those
days? I mean, like the raccoon coat or any other way. Was it
considered a, was school a social as well as an academic event?
I would say it was social. There was a . . . dances were held
practically every evening after dinner.
Every evening?
Every evening in the gymnasium and the President of the College and
the Dean of Women and the Dean of Men were always there to
supervise and to see that things were in order.
Every evening?
Well, at least five evenings a week. But it was the usual thing,
short dance and then there were. . . .
What music?
Where was the music from?
t
Victrola?
Frankly, that has gone clear by me. I don't even remember at that
time. You see I was younger socially. I remember going to the
dances to look on, but I was not a participant in the dances.
Therefore, that has not registered with me so well. But there was,
I would say, quite a social atmosphere at the college, for you see,
it was not a commuting college. Only a few of the students who
lived in the immediate vicinity of Slippery Rock commuted. It was
before the days of automobiles, that is before the days of
automobiles for college students. The parents might have had an
automobile at that time, but not the students. The, we had classes
on Saturday, of course, too.
Oh you did?
Up until Saturday noon, and students were encouraged, strongly
encouraged to stay at college over the weekend, and generally they
did that. They would maybe go home once a month or once every five
or six weeks or if they lived more distant even less than that.
them to stay?63"
Str°ngly encouraged?
-87-
Was there pressure put on
Yes. There was pressure put on and even to the point where the
President Eisenberg would take an interest in an student to the
point of calling him in sometimes and advising him that he thought
he was going home too frequently.
Is that right?
The President took a great interest in each individual student.
Apparently.
The President at that time, to call students into the office if they
were observed walking, cutting across the campus. There was to be
no campus cutting. You were allowed to stroll on the campus, but
not to cut across and beat paths in the campus.
Was that across the grass.
Across the grass.
He'd call you in if you crossed, walked in the grass.
Yes. I knew of more than one student who got called in and Dr.
Eisenberg was a very stern disciplinarian. A little carry over I
suppose from the old high school, elementary type of thinking an
it was a rather narrow chalkline that people expected you to walk
And students were dismissed from college who didn't fit in.
Oh, they were?
They were advised that their college days had come to an end, on
occasion. This didn't happen frequently, but Eisenberg I think was
a reasonable man, and he didn't arbitrarily throw people out, but
only if a person insisted in breakingall rules and regulations.
People also were dismissed for academic reasons.
If vou look, think back to the college, what do you picture in your
mind? What stands out about the campus itself in your memory.
Now, are you speaking about the physical campus.
Yes.
The thing that stands out particularly as far as the physical campus
was concerned was the neat and orderly condition of it. The
neatness of the buildings, the janitorial work, the lawns and the
trees and the shrubbery. No clutter was on the campus.
No litter either?
No litter on the campus. The campus was very well taken care of.
In fact it was a I suppose an outstanding spot in the whole
surrounding community.
-88-
JM:
i_
c -w wflv? Was it just natural or did people say
we'want'to'make ° th i s campus the most outstanding thing in the
community or the area?
JF:
22 fiZ\S "2
••
that day and age.
JM
Of course, there wasn't as much litter, I don't imagine.
JF
There wasn't as much.
JM
Was there a place to go and eat, and get drinks and things?
JF
Yes, a small stand. Grover Watson's stand down near where the
Paradise Inn is now located.
JM:
Let's see, that's down Cooper Street, right at the end of Cooper
Street.
JF
Well, at the end of Maltby Avenue.
JM
Oh yes, where West Hall, near West Hall.
JF
Yes. And then there was another little place, right in there. I
think the building is still along there. I think they called it
Mom's Place, maybe. It was a kind of a place where students could
go in to get something to eat. But these were pretty small places,
and of course there was no place on the campus, in those days like
there is now. No student union, nothing of that sort where you
could eat. But students didn't have money to spend for that kind
of thing in those days, so there wasn't any big demand for it. If
they did eat and snack they would probably go down town to the
grocery store and do it in their rooms.
JM.
Oh I see, yeah. What about sports? What do you remember about
sports? Was the football team a big event?
JF:
The football team was a big event. Coach Thompson, who's name is
I re™fmbered even to this day and age, of course, was the coach
e' fnd he/made tl*.
-i
He was
f
coach °f, 5he football team, but also the basketball team
nnitP fh!
Su WaS made of sP°rts in those days. These were
student body turned out and in pretty nearly
full forrp
th6y
Stayed
over weekends and this was a social
^
There was^great deaT^f' ^ i° the events were W®11 attended,
concerned
V SCh°01 Spirit as far as sPorts were
S p5?gram was not as extensive as it is now,
of
course
but
i
t
or course, but it was well
supported.
W?
JM:
What do you recall of thp
Slippery Rock looked H V P Jh i i?an
What dominated?
Physically?
-89-
c
Picture what the town
What stood out about it?
you
of
JF:
Well.
JM:
Was there anything?
JF:
Of course, many of the streets »«e unpaved at that^e«n*acant
walkine from Chambers' down on Maple btreer aero
lotwherethe
present-day
Education Building stands, one had to be
careful of not tangling with a skunk at nigh .
JM:
What was that?
JF:
In fact, my roommate tangled with a skunk one night.
JM:
Is that right?
JF:
And one had to be very wary of that. So. walking around the streets
and crossing the streets, they were, there was mud
You had
have overshoes, boots to get across the streets and then, of
course, the town was smaller. There were many
at the time yet. And beyond that the physical comment I don t
think there was too much difference. Of course, there was. . . .
local businesses did serve the local community and probably were
more
thriving^ comparatively speaking in that day than they are now
when people can drive out of town to do a lot of their shopping.
JM:
Was there a hotel then, where the bank now stands?
JF:
No. There was no hotel then.
when I was a student.
JM:
What else was downtown?
JF'
Well of course, there were two hardware stores. The!Meier Hardware
store which was then the Rogers Hardware store. Bingham s Hardware
was up the street further. The Bard store was of course a big
*!•
o+- hViat- f-iniP
It was a country store that carried a good
line^^clothing and sold a lot to the Silage students. There was
no store on the college campus at that time. And they were very
iealous to try to keep the trade downtown then, and fought very
hard when the college started getting into business of that kind.
Cafeteria business and so on, taking business away from the
do^to™
Now there was another store down about where Brooks is
downtown.
It was referred to sometimes as the
Baker>s store.
?c' nf SlioDerv Rock
You would have to have seen it to have
appreciated it Se you went in things were disorderly , I think
PP?H J P Treasonable word to use.
You ferreted your way through
W°
I never have seen anything like it in
nri v lit aisles
all'my'experiences. But he had almost everything in the way of
groceries and clothing mainly as I recall.
JM:
JF:
The First National Bank stood there
What stores do you remember?
Where was that located?
That was located where the Brooks store is now.
-90-
John Brooks'
plumbing and appliances.
Across from Snyders.
JM:
And it's next to the Boron Gas Station.
JF:
Yes. Yes. Where the Boron Gas Station now stands there was a
restaurant at the time.
JM:
What stood where the Sunoco Station now stands?
JF*
Well there was a huge frame building on that corner and older Mr.
Brooks, Levi Brooks, later took out that building and I really
don't know what was in there when I was a college student. I don't
remember, I think it was before the time of Brooks.
JM:
What about where the Falcon Station on the corner, the Falcon
Station?
JF:
Well, I don't remember what was on that corner.
JM:
The restaurant next the Falcon Station?
JF:
That was Topley's Restaurant.
JM:
It's always been a restaurant?
JF:
Well, it was a restaurant and a bus stop, when I was a college
student here.
JM
I see they have that mill stone on the outside.
JF:
Yes.
JM
Do you know any reason why they have that mill stone In the side of
their building? What was that to illustrate?
JF:
thiTlk itsJust t0
the thingPUt ^
tbere»
Preserve it, and I really don't know who
sure its just a matter of preserving
but
JM:
Probably represented something; was it a mill at one time?
JF:
stonetnd'had'S illdd'd •^
pu^os:fand to p«s^ it"'" *"
JM:
JF:
Just g^hered up a mill a
f°r Native
office
It had8a bell tW^lt "aS 3 building near the post
you have to go certato nl»eP T' ^th 3 bel1
outside. Did
Is that Wh3t ^""
was? Special booths? DU ™^1?hone7 u
•
y e have a phone in those days?
I don't think so. I don't reran
college days. We did not have a teIenhUSlng autelePhone in my
reason to call home and no other re^! ^ atThome so 1 had no
And I think what they called the r ®on that 1 needed a telephone.
central at that time--it was the
-91-
ffi-SS E"S3^
later.
JM:
Did everyone in Slippery Rock have electricity by then by 1927?
JF:
I would think that practically everyone had electricity and that was
a ereat treat for me as a student because we didn t have
electricity on the farm yet. That didn't come until some time in
the late '30s after the REA under Franklin Delano Roosevelt got
rural electrification.
JM:
Yeah. What about radios?
Rock to your knowledge?
JF:
I didn't know anybody who had one.
but I didn't.
JM:
You didn't know anybody?
JF:
I didn't know anybody who had one. It was pretty early days for
radio then yet. I'm sure some of the more affluent people had
radio.
JM:
Not the average person?
JF:
Not the average person. I don't think I had listened to a radio.
That's what makes me think that people whom I knew did not have
them, because I don't think I had listened to a radio. I might
have a little bit earlier in 1925. I do remember the crystal sets
where you used the earphones, but I can't recall exactly the da e
of when I first heard these. I did, the first inaugural address by
a President, I heard was by Calvin Coolidge. Now Jim you help me
with that. That was in 1924?
JM:
Right.
JF*
1924. A gentleman in Portersville had loaned a radio to the high
school, brought it in, set it up, and we listened to Coolidge s
inaugural address. And we did sit there and listen to it because
we hadn't heard radios before so we were willing to listen to it.
I recall in later years when I was a teacher of taking a radio tor
students to listen to an inaugural address and they didn't seem
very much interested in listening to it. The first televised
inaugural address that I recall listening to was in 1950 in
Eisenhower's inaugural.
JM:
In '52.
TTT-
Tn '52 at the Slippery Rock High School when someone loaned a _
television to the high school and we had the students listen to it
in the auditorium and I think they listened pretty well at that
Did everyone have a radio in Slippery
-92-
I suppose some people had them,
i -j
o e a relatively new thing.
I do recall
time because again this was a
and somebody would have to
%£% quite frequently during the ineugur.1.
see, what else was there.
IM:
IF:
Were there any streets paved?
Well, Main Street and Franklin Street I think were probably the only
ones that were paved.
JM:
Bricked or concrete?
JF:
They were concrete, I believe.
JM:
How far out were they paved?
JF-
Oh I think just to the edge of the borough. I think possibly Main
Street I think that pavement ran to Butler. Yes I'm sure that it
did
Route 8 it was at that time and it was paved to Butler. And
maybe the road to New Castle. I believe it was paved to New
Castle but beyond those main roads, the streets in the borough
itself'were not yet paved. At least many of them were not paved.
You know these, you get accustomed to taking these things tor
granted after a while and I do remember the mud on Maple Street
because I was living there. But some of the other streets I don t
remember quite so well.
JM:
Were there street lights?
JF:
Yes, there were some street lights.
JM:
Gas or electric?
JF:
Electric.
JM:
Electric?
JF:
Electric street lights.
JM:
Well, what was the college like? Well maybe we had better wait and
hear the rest of your story. What happened when you finished your
two years?
JF:
Well, when I finished the two years, I got a teaching position in
the Oak Grove School, Muddy Creek Township, my home township.
JM
Did you have any difficulty getting a job?
JF
No.
JM
Two years of college.
JF
I had no difficulty getting a job. I had the best certificate of
anyone in that in our township. No other teacher had two years of
education. My only problem was, I was not yet of legal age to
-93-
teach in school in September.
JM:
How old were you?
JF:
18 was the legal age to teach, and I was not 18 on the 23rdof
October
The school board was very generous to me. They employea
me to be the teacher with the proviso the substitute would take
over through September until I became 18 years of age. I marvel
sometimes that ?hey were so generous or bothered to getting me a
job under those conditions, but that's the way it was. The
substitute teacher opened the term and then I took oyer after he
left
I had to go around to interview some school directors and I
recall very vividly that I did much of this on foot. I
about 7 miles one day wearing gum boots over country roads
interview a school director who was working on a.chicken farm- I
followed him around through the chicken house, "bile
5
—
interview and he was the director for Oak Grove School and things
apparently worked out all right. He must have given the word to
the school board to employ me. I got the job in any event.
JM:
He had to interview you?
JF:
Yes. I consider myself very fortunate. I'm very^grateful for
public schools in the United States, in my community, that I, as a
country kid, a country hick, you might say, could get an education
and go on to college and become a teacher and have the privilege
teaching all grades from grades 1 all up through graduate school.
JM:
You taught every single grade?
JF-
Yes. I'm sure a few other people have had that experience too. But
there are not too many more living and around in this day and age
who have had that experience.
JM:
Did you enjoy teaching.
JF:
Yes, very much. I found it pretty strenuous at first, as I think
most new teachers do; it was not easy by any stretch of the
imagination. But by and large I enjoyed it and I enjoyed my
college work more than the other and I enjoyed the graduate work
more than any of the college work and I ended up with a good last
year which has left a pleasant memory. But I certainly did
appreciate my college students and particularly the graduate
students.
JM:
I enjoyed graduate school, too.
elementary school teacher?
JF:
Well I remained in the country school as a strictly elementary
teacher for two years. And then I was able to get a position ma
eraded school and what we referred to as departmental work and what
we call elementary today, teaching arithmetic and spelling in
erades 5, 6, 7 and 8. On that particular year, you were asking
gout the availability of jobs. Well, I made the change after the
-94-
How long did you remain as an
™
....
£*;.£»!n'iiSMwp.™!".- •
sn
•••'•
continued for ten years.
JM:
JF:
You were a principal for ten years?
Yes I was a principal--a teaching principal. So all of that was
elementary work actually because there was no middle school. Then
I went into junior high work in the city of Butler teaching
mathematics, but at that point I was invited to come to Slippery
Rock and I did not apply for the position.
JM:
You were invited?
JF:
I was invited to come and came and had an interview and looked the
situation over and decided to come as a supervising teacher in the
laboratory high school.
JM:
What year was that?
JF:
That was in 1943.
JM:
Had the campus changed much since you had been a student?
JF:
Well, not greatly, I would say. Now, of course, by that time we
were in the war years and men were getting very scarce on the
campus through several years but I think the old values and manner
of operating the school, the size of the school, were pretty much
the same. We had not reached the stage of expansion which took
place after the World War II, at that time.
JM:
Physically, everything was pretty much the same as it had been?
JF:
There had been a few buildings added from the time I had been a
student, for instance now I'm speaking about coming back here to
teach in 1943. We had gone through a period of expansion
physically in the form of buildings under the Roosevelt Programs of
buildings such as North Hall, the Library, and the new Laboratory
School. Those were the basic buildings.
JM:
Did that increase the enrollment at the school, or was it just
because the money was there that they were built?
JF:
J think it was pretty largely that the money was there. Because we
had "ached a figure of around a 1000 in enrollment in the late 20s
udrtd U=r- T T A °n t
}*eve that figure was surpassed until
S
™ hL »
-, n ^ Pretty larBely a matter of money;
we had a local influential Democrat.
JM:
Who's that?
Both junior and senior high school.
JF:
cic
Party.
-95-
"
V
,
There was the possibility of an
increase in federal funds for the college, for expansion.
JM:
How did it change after the war?
JF:
Well, after the war, of course, there was a great influx ofstudents
and expansion, that we got into changing over to a State Colleg
system as opposed to a single purpose teaching school.
JM:
Normal school?
JF:
Normal school and teachers college.
JM:
University?
JF-
Yes university type. So I think the greatest, most obvious change
was'the increase in size and the multiplicity of the offerings m
the curriculum.
JM:
Completely changed the character of the school?
JF:
Yes, I would say it changed the character of the school
considerably.
-96-
How did the college change?
They had a multi-purpose.
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Marion Hartley
Interviewers: Shirley Cubbison and Peggy Mershimer
CM
You have spent your life here in Slippery Rock?
MH
Yes, I was bora here, right next door, at 231 South Main Street.
CM
What are some of your earliest recollections of life in Slippery
Rock?
MH:
My earliest recollection, of course, would be of my home life, which
was very different from life today. It centered around the home;
the evenings were spent at home. We had devotions every evening
and every morning. Our life also centered on the church. On
Sunday we went to Sunday school, Junior Endeavor, Christian
Endeavor, and church services in the evening. We were not forced
to go; we wanted to go. We were more of a family, very close,
where today it is very different from that.
CM:
The church was a social center, too, was it not?
MH:
No, not when I was small. We had very few social activities. We
had a dinner before the congregational meeting, which was one a
year, and at Christmas we were given an apple and a popcorn ball
and a little bag of hardtack candy. Those are the only two social
events involving the church. Of course, our Sunday School class
had a social meeting once a month. We did not have the social
activities then that they do now. We did not have dinner for the
public. I was about 15 years old when those started
CM
I should have asked you when you were born?
MH
I was born August 29, 1910.
CM
Can you also tell us a little about your elementary education?
MH
main^uildine "th^ev"
when 1 we*t
to kindergarten up in th
door. Mrs Hamm was the teacher
She^ "^^^
Everybody just loved her- we all cripH W?S
°J teacher.
ried when we had to go on to
first trade
In flf fil
th" 1 W3S her
helperf and * asked her'to let^e so anoth
told my mother later that she had wasted"
°u klnderSartenwasn't wasted. From there I went to thf M dTi w"-,iC really
MOD®L School, which is
West Hall. From the Model School T
was on the third floor of the maiA building"
^Sch°o1' whiC
CM:
MH:
Who^were some of your teachers that you can recall besides Mrs.
I doubt if you would know any except Mrs. Hugh Bard.
-97-
She taught m
in home economics.
CM:
Any other names you can recall?
MH:
Miss Walters taught music; Miss Grayhand and Miss Snyder, but they
are not from here. At that time Slippery Rock seemed to go out of
town to get teachers, it was very hard for a local person to gel a
job up there. But not it isn't; there seem to be more teachers
from here.
CM:
After you completed your high school work, did you go on to
college?
MH:
I went to Normal School, as it was called then
I am not sure of
the year it became a college. I went back in 1958 and got my
certification for Special Education, which I ended up teaching a
lot.
CM:
You saw a lot of the college in two different eras, didn't you?
MH:
Yes, and I found it to be very different.
CM:
Could you comment on some of your teachers during those Normal
School years?
MH'
I had Dr. Russel Morgan, who graduated from here. You see I took
my classes in the summer, I went one winter, and the rest of the
time in the summer. I had Dr. Mary Shinaberry for most classes-Dr. Mary and Dr. Charles.
CM:
This is when you were getting your certification in Special
Education?
MH:
Yes, that right.
CM
Anyone else you can recall from your earlier college education?
MH:
Well did you know Mr. Lady?
I had Mr. Lady and Herb Book.
Lady taught mathemetics and Herbert Book taught history.
CM:
He taught me in history in high school, also.
MH:
Hanna Parks taught English. I had Mrs. Fred Vincent for speech.
She was Miss Eichler then. She taught speech and dramatics.
CM:
Of all of the people you recall from your school days, who do you
think is the most memorable, the outstanding teacher.
MH:
I would say Mable Vincent. She was always so very kind and
considerate. She made the class with her sense ofhumor; you _
really enjoyed her class. And, of course, Mable Vincent still is a
beautiful woman and it was a pleasure to just sit and look at her.
When she came here, she was very, very outstanding.
-98-
Mr,
CM:
MH:
- ,, p rules and regulations that you did not like?
What were some of the rui
-r J• J
like them, because they did not
Well, it wasn't that I did n
Qf course f the students
affect me. We had a very
One
school was regulated with a bell.
weren't on the streets. The school w
^^
^&
student got his tuition pa
campus. They weren't
bell at 7:30 AM, and the students were^ccam^ #
^^
allowed to sign out. If
nQt allowed to come into
dorm, I had to go up the , , y t
of course, at that time
ts<
town. They weren t ro
S
thought of these things at
there was absolutely no dr:Inking won*
g
President thin,
that time, that I know of
IDr. Eisenberg
Ustened
We had
chfpel^and we£we?easeated at 9:45 every morning
Each person had
his or her seat, and they took roll. He was a big man with a
powerful voice. He was married to a Johnson, and Lil Johnson was a
and she really sent overboard. The girls were not allowed to
wear patent leather shoes, because their underwear might reflect
when they were dancing with the boys. Everyone dressed to go to
the dining room, both the boys and the girls. Not like now, when
see them going in in shorts. At 9:45 at night another belu ia"g»
and you had 15 minutes to get ready for bed. At ten o'clock all
lights were out in the dorms.
IZn,
CM:
Were the rules the same for the boys as they were for the girls as
far as bed times and such?
MH:
Oh yes. There was the boys dorm, South Hall. And most of the
students worked. I've asked so many students to do yard work, but
they are not interested. If you wanted some work done, manual
work, all you had to do was call the Normal School. People worked
their way through school then. Now they go on government loans,
and are paid for going. I scrubbed everybody's kitchen in this
town and worked at the telephone company across the street at night
with my books beside me trying to study. But not today. I know we
did not have these houses here, like next door, where you have 16
people living in that house. It was beautiful when this house
belonged to Jack Barron. This was the finest house in town, people
from everywhere came. Of course, the students tore out the
beautiful cherry woodwork the first year.
CM:
Students did live off campus when you attended Normal School?
MH:
Yes, my mother and I kept students. We had some mighty fine boys
live with us. Everyone around here boarded students, but they were
supervised.
CM:
°° yOUJeel
stuoenr/
there WSS perhaps more
MH:
EK.-S'.S
-99-
respect from the town toward the
Frank Bingham, he was about 100 years old ^en he
j
to get so angry when students^^f^^ren do not know old
have almost come to the conclusion that chil
^^
people. The old people are not in the home, tn y g
nursing home.
I know I was glad that my children had the chance to grow up around
my husband's grandmother; it taught them a lot.
ffl:
I agree.
It makes a difference.
Most young people do not realize
that they will be old some day.
S,rSuISi»Sa1'S"„5"p"^ tr £i=St S5K2,'2XS"*
had a different house the .
from the Methodist Church up
we called that the orcha ,
pPT1Tyer's house. That was orchard,
PP ^ where the Chautauqua was.
where the tent was. We would
back."
;M:
FFL:
It was during the summer?
V
T think it was a dollar for a ticket, and you worked like the
dickens to get the money to ^
there'were "r^of ^ever" We had some really wonderful
.
S
T T-VIINV back
We also had a movie house, cost a
"lick McDonald? Louis's brother playedthemoviepiano;
Shen lack wasn't there it was Rowles who^played
By
movies were where the Grang
,
and doWn the street.
Tell?
th3t tSecou?see W:heenai8grew
up? th'e sthoo! a£d the town were very
close. They hai a movie I believe
h^sS^t^nces,"but they
Friedman and I used to go up th ^
^^^policemen. ^
were conducted very we.1^^ about once a month> and they were
firemen had the
tQ different homes to make
nice. Everybody went.
.6
hild
x aiways had rows of
candy in the evening When I was a
kitchen as I was teaching
kids, mosV ??nd?
nils to?n was peaceful, like a family. Of
course°most of the town was related: they were all Bards and
Binghams. We never locked our doors.
:M:
When was the Main Street paved?
[H:
nn.
in iq9S
Thev took all of the beautiful trees down that
S?d »Sline the'street. It was not necessary to cut those trees
a™ bp.cause we did not cut ours' down.
-100-
r first
CM:
CM:
teaching job when you finished school,
Where was y
I started to
actually four places.
T
raueht in three places, acij ule. McDermot was my
teach in Marion Township, east of
x taught at Ray,
first school, that is where
net Frank
7th and 8th gradesthen I went to Boyers, to the big
The first day I
ItaUansand I mean big. They were
•
I
walting to go to school.
went to school, I thought they »e
hiP in Mercer County, and
taught half a year in Wolf Creek^
^ x got in a place
then Slippery Rock, i
and I was happy.
• - rhe Sliooery Rock Area Elementary School after you
lot your
spec
ialeducation certification,
,-e.
MH:
No. Jenny got sick and Franc
No.
I took some time out to "
and my mother got sick, so
g ^^peopie and I had no
^ principalt and every year she
gub>
x toid her not to call, that I
notion of teaching. Fa
would call me and want
that was special education, and
was interested in one thing, andthat™
me one day and
they didn't have that at
.2?e^ay
and "talk with Dr. Yingling.
told me to get to Butler right^
The next d
x went
They're opening a room in Slippery
into summer school.
CM:
Where was you classroom when you started Special Education in
Slippery Rock?
MH-
Special education was in the American Legion. We had to fold up for
bingo, fold up for meetings. Then we were in the Presbytei u
Church. The Legion Hall, the fire hall, and the Presbyterian
Church were all used temporarily while we were waiting for the
construction of the day Slippery Rock Area Elementary School.
CM:
Do you know anything about the Model School on New Castle Road?
MH:
Yes, my mother went there. This was more like a finishing school.
You know, Harrisville almost got the college. They really wanted
it, and they almost got it because they were near the railroad. 1
regularly talk with a woman from Harrisville who says she is
awfully glad they did not get the college when she sees what is has
done to Slippery Rock. Of course, I am very thankful for the
college.
CM:
Some of your ancestors were involved in setting up the college here
in Slippery Rock. Do you recall who they were?
MH:
Robert Bard, Frank P. Bingham both worked very hard. Robert Bard
was my grandfather. Jack Bard, Horace Bard, they all worked very
hard to get the school here. Also the Watsons. I think everyone
in Slippery Rock worked hard. What they talked about most were
those terrible trips to Harrisburg. It took so long to get there
then.
-101-
CM:
Jenny Bartz and Aunt Grace were friends?
MH:
Yes, Jenny and I walked to M°orhe<£'? ^Edith^hristly^and sit
we would get Mrs Moorhead and go fiallagher's
and we'd always
there for awhile Then we'd stop back at aanagnei.
get buttermilk to drink there.
CM:
How did Jenny and Grace know each other?
MH:
Through your grand.other
Hcw your gra^other and « he^e
aCi°e" frilly per^anHhe JSKbly saw you grandmother and
iust started talking to her.
-102-
oral History Project
Slippery Rock University Centennral
Alumnus: Carl Woodling
Interviewer: Shirley Cubbison
SC:
rw-
recollections
What were you earUest pers
of Slippery Rock?
^ ^^ ^ ^ ^^^
I first came to Slippery ROCK in
j>
uent t0 Baccalaureate on
friend who was graduating that J**. ^^ Qnly clme j ever saw
Sunday and Dr. Killer was there, ^
and Dr. Entz was also
him. I remember his being
ln August of 1940 to visit
there. Then I came to Slippery started t0 go together--the summer
Louise. That was when she an
worked for Dr. Entz and Dr.
of 1940--and we later marri.e .
Dr.
Grove (Hotel) for dinner.
Entz took us up hete to the
come and i „as introduced to
McMaster and Mrs. McMaster nao ju
them at that time
&nd sprlng j canle to Slippery
During the fall, th
wnuld
walk through the campus.
rb^mrsVshow«^
Building^ the
they had to build a whole new one
That fire was during
^
Miller's administration. He came in 34 and left in
.
»
will also mention that Louise told me that the year she »,!»
1930, they had just finished the East Gym. And then the training
school was just finished.
SC:
So there was quite a bit of expansion in 30's and 40's?
CW:
Yes, in the 30's and then also in the early 40's. The high school
was added to the training school, the old training school had been
in West Hall. The high school was on the third floor of Old Main.
Then when the training school moved up to their new building, of
course, the high school moved to West Hall. When they finished t e
high school, of course, they left West Hall, which was then used
for college classes. After I came I was told I had a very good
memory and was very interested in the college. I didn't know to
much about Slippery Rock outright.
Most of the college teachers lived in Slippery Rock at that
time and, well, the town was glad to have the college because there
probably wouldn't have been a town if it hadn't been for the
college. Bout some resented the people at the college. They
didn't bother too much with the college, however, the Presbyterian
Church, the stone building, probably would never have been built l
it hadn't been for the college people like Dr. Blaisdell and all
the old timers. The original church, was built in 1854 and then in
1883, before the college came, they remodeled the church a little
bit. In 1927 they built the stone church up around the olden
wooden church. Then in 1948 it burned. One reason it did burn was
-103-
because the old wooden church was right f^ide all of the
you see. But the new church that was built m 1947 LS^^°orThere's little wood in it. The Highland Church said they would
never do^Sat the Presbyterian Chu?ch did. And they turned around
and did the very same thing.
.
,
T rame out
I came to Slippery Rock permanently m 1945 when I came our
of the service. We were married in 1941 just before Dr. McMaster
had passed away. You know what happened to him; he committe
suicide
We were lust married and Louise asked if she could stay
because"I was going to the service. Before Dr. McMaster died Dr.
Entz had been Dean of Instruction and then he was madeJ^an
Students and Director of Student Personnel. Dr.
k
1937 and he was Dean of Instruction, taking over Dr. Entz wor ,
h. ...
.....Id b.
But Pearl Harbor came on the 7th of December of 1941 and that
v.
A
riipi-urp
Because the boys were starting to go and th
always felt that he was the acting president but he was not.
right in the books that he was the president. Bob Watson
it
The was'down and in the fall of 1942, I think in October,
some Army personnel came and viewed the college and d®cided it was
ideal set-up for training soldiers and so they decided to take
that for a year and that would run out probably around the spring
of 1944
Zey brought the* in in the spring of '43 and there was
only about 100 girls and 2 boys, in the college
They let th^^
t6llS
for°the Army'personnei.
Some of "aye^in West Hall and that
went on f™ a year. I was back on a couple of furloughs when they
were here and it was really a big thing in Slippery Rock,
opened up the town.
What was the town's reaction to having the Army trainee's here?
Tjen rhev were very well received. It built up the work at the
college you know, for the maintenance and everything. In January
of 1944'Dr. Entz was told that they would be phasing it out in
Anril of '44
He was very much worried. When they left he just
had the 100 girls and 3 or 4 boys.
He was notified in January of
1945
they
might
have
to
close
the
college.
Anyway, the spring
1945 they m g
^^
d o
SQme of the boys starte
back that summer.
comingS
Then in August was the final surrender of
-104-
. „
Entz in September of '45 felt
Dr
the boys kept coming.
He was
o n t h e presidency.
that they needed a younger »an 'to
J tQ i t
He s a i d i f he and
ready for retirement and^dito ^feel^P, d
He
Mrs Entz were to enj y
time was up around the 21st of
did resign in September andh
^ ^ b o a r < J e l e c t e d ,) r Dale Houk
January of '46. I" December ^ w a s v e r y m u c h u p s e t because Dr.
as their new P resld £JJ * n
liked Dr. Entz.
Entz was leaving, They J* 1 *
a b o a r d m e m b e r s a id to Maree McKay,
In later years, you kn ,
retiring." She said, "What do
-You know Maree, Dr. Weisen
^
They all left
you mean? They all got fir
j d o n , t know a b o u t Dr<
under fire except Dr. Entz, yw
anyway that was Maree's
Maltby, but Dr. Morrow did
^
Umise
&nd
H ouk came in.
expression! Dr. Entz left in^Janu«y ^ ^ ^ t Q s l i p p e r y
had been friends withj 1
. f r i e n d s 0 f ours. We visited
Rock and they continued
He died in 1957 and she
0 f t en.
their home in Wl J- liam ® P ° rii 5 s b e i e f t word for her nephew to send
died in 1964. When she died she left ^
T
cn
those (pictures) on
my
Lillian Griffin's engravings.
— S^ i »j r < 2 - i - J S5-J-.ST ST
tsA&rxrsi r:us sssf s.; ejrsr
students in from Penn State because Penn State was so crowded.
They were engineering students who were to gent two years here and
then go to the main campus, weren't they?
Yes, to main campus. About 1950--I think that was the end of the
Penn State students. The chapel was closed during Dr. Houk's
administration. Harrisburg would not give them money to repair tne
chapel. The chapel meant a lot to the alumni. Dr. Houk respecte
that, but Mr. Bauer was very much against it. It didn't mean
anything to him; he graduated in State College and he had closed it
1955. He didn't try to get any money to repair it and the alumni
gave money to try to save it and get it repaired. During Dr.
Watrel's time, it was torn down because he didn't have any use for
it here. But they did save Old Main, and they remodeled it quite a
bit. It's very nice, but the chapel was gone. I guess they ^ av ®
some of the stained glass windows out of the chapel. They put them
in the Alumni Room in North Hall.
Those are very nice but they're really a small portion of the
stained glass.
That's right, Dr. Elder--Walter Elder--well, he was very much
opposed. He said the stone in that was imported and they didn t
save a bit of it, you know. Bauer was to blame for the loss of the
organ. They took the organ out of there and put it down in the
basement of the Science Hall and the roof leaked and it got wet.
They took it out and threw it in the dump. But then, on the other
-105-
hand, Dr. Weisenfluh didn't do anything to save it either. |>r.
Houk was partly to blame too because it was closed in 1955 and he
resigned in 1956. Dr. Weisenfluh followed Dr. Houk and I would say
that it was Dr. Houk and Mr. Bauer that should have perhaps had it
maintained better. Dr. Weisenfluh came in they had a building
program started up, but the chapel was too far gone. The alumni
had given quite a bit of money to save it. Dr. Watrel
anything about it either, so it was a sad situation.
We bought the house on Main st. in May of 1946. As I said,
Louise came to Slippery Rock in 1930 and she lived
Mrs. Hilliard. Vonnie and Vevia are her cousins
She lived with
them in their house down on Maple St. I came back in October o
1945 and houses were hard to get and that time, so we lived
Hilliard's apartment and I worked for the Veterans Administrati
in Butler. We lived in the apartment until the May of 1946.
bought the Grine property; it was a big house. Barnett s live
there now. They bought the house from the Stauffer s.
Stauffer's bought the house from us, we built a new house righ
above it. Mrs. Jackie Evans lives there now. At the other h™se'
we have student tenants. The next tenant was Bill White and his
wife and then Archie Dodds. He and Mrs. P°dds :r^left Miss™
the 2nd floor apartment for 7 years and then when they left> Mis
Elva Rice the English teacher lived there. And then we sold the
house, but before that, we rented the house and moved up to the new
house we built, a split level, and Miss Rice lived there for two
yCarS'Louise
had retired in 1959 from Slippery Rock after 29 years.
She had retirement, but she had only 3 years Social Security.
e
state employees in PA did not get Social Security until 1956
But
she didn't go back to work at the college; she made it up working
at the Church part-time and for Mr. Patterson at the real estate.
But my Social Security was OK. I had 9 years Social Security
before I came to the college, and then the last 3 years I was at
the college I had Social Security.
You were in Florida for awhile, when did you come back?
I came back in 1965 and worked at the college until 1972 and then
retired. Louise was transferred from Dr. Weisenfluh s office to
Mr. Dodds office and she worked for Mr. Dodds 3 years
There was a
conflict there because she had worked for Dr. Houk. You know the
political side of it. But there was no political business with me
at all
I liked Dr. Weisenfluh and was sorry I ever had left, but
lust the same I did. Well, I had charge of some maintenance when I
came back and the laundry. Of course, they closed the laundry m
1965. I enjoyed my time at the college very much.
Well, you saw quite a bit of change.
Yes, we sure did--from the 1940's up through the 1970's.
Quite an era of expansion under Dr. Weisenfluh?
Yes that was true and then they had that when Dr. Carter first came
-106-
and then of course it va
P
^ b u i l t d u r i n g Carter and
came. You see, Vmcen
w a s r e a lly planned by Weisenfluh.
Watrel's administration,
Hamer Hall, Rhoads Hall was
Then the classroom
"built after Watrel was here,
built. The Boozel DiningHall ™ 5 ^>u ^ r e m o d e l i n g t h e
y
Now this summer I
That is
t 0 b e a quick dining hall.
Weisenfluh Hall a
g
Alumni D
NoW| j had never been in
Boozel Hall°until Alumni day
it's^vepr^nice. ^Of^course,
i^the^orth^al^StafP^dining room.
I've been there, that's real
You see, when Louise passed away, I opened a contact with
Sally Lennox and she got Dr. Aebersold up here. I got a very nice
letter from Dr. Aebersold when Louise passed away recognizing that
she had been the president's secretary for so many years
Then Dr.
Dawson and I set up a memorial scholarship in English and English
Education and (they) called it the Louise Kelly Woodling Memorial
Scholarship. I gave $5,000 and then every year at her birthdate,
which is May, I give $500 towards that. Then we'd gotten
contributions from people that had gone to school here and the
faculty that knew her. We got, oh, around $2,000 on that. Also,
from relatives and so forth. Mr. Ross iter is the man that's in
charge of the program. So what we're planning and doing isn't
final yet; but the way it's set up is that at my death it's to be
called the Carl and Louise Woodling Scholarship and I'm to give
$5,000 to the college for that. We're talking about raising it and
I'll give another, let's see, $10,000 and that will build it up
with what I give every year in May. All my business is done
through the attorney and First National Bank of Slippery Rock.
11106
SC:
Louise served under how many presidents?
CW:
Well, she actually worked for Dr. Entz when he was Dean of
Instruction. So she worked for him 16 years and then she worked
for Dr. Houk 10 years, and then she worked for Mr. Dodds as the
Director of Student Placement for 3 years. But, she worked when
Dr. Eisenberg was there, in those days as Dean; Dr. Eisenberg did
the hiring, you see.
The way she happened to get here was: She had planned to go
UniversitY
i"oo£
Miami when she graduated from high school in
1926. And then the hurricane came and her father lost nearly all
of his money. So she was already up here on a visit and he told
her not to come back
So she went 2 years to Iron City Business
55*
u S ^ 6 w o r k e d f o r engineer in the Fulton building
and, of course, the depression came.
SC:
That was the Fulton building in Pittsburgh?
not^bfcause of ^ 1 ' * ' t l U t W <' I '»
"ally
• IC
£*IriS?butit1trik« m :r t hL S ?B t 0 ^ t t S b U r g h q u i t e a b i t
The Bessemer bulldln
£
^
^ '
e r
-107-
SC:
So all in all Louise really was acquainted with many Slippery Rock
faculty and administration?
CW:
Yes, from Eisenberg through Dr. Weisenfluh. She had contact with
him. She didn't know Carter or Watrel or Aebersold. But anyway,
Aebersold knew she had been there and he wrote me a letter. He's a
very fine man.
_ .
Well, getting back to the way she got here, the Hilliard s
lived in Forestville, so she and her mother came up to visit the
Hilliards. Her mother said, "Why not call Mr. Galaspy? Maybe he
would have something at the college." Well, she did call. The
reason for that: Mrs. Galaspy was a teacher and Louise's father had
gotten her her first teaching job, so she felt that she owed
something to Louise. Her father was gone then. So they went down
to see Mr. Galaspy and he took Louise up to the office. Dr.
Eisenberg had just come in from the garden and said, "I can't even
shake hands with you" because in those days they had big gardens,
and he had been out working in the garden. He talked to her and he
said, "I'm not going to ask you to write any letter of application
because I've heard all about your experience, and your father being
an educator."
He said, "Just report to work the day after Labor
Day," so she did, but she told her mother that she would only stay
in this little country town one year. She stayed, of course,
years. Eisenberg was very strict and in those days the office
force came to work at 8:00 in the morning and they stayed until
5:00 at night, with an hour for lunch. Miss McKay was the
registrar and she was over-well, she wasn't over the office all
together, but she ruled the roost. Dr. Entz said
I m going to
tell you that when Maree.McKay snaps you off when I send you over ^
there for anything you just snap back and she'll never bother you.
So she did that and she never had any trouble with Maree. One time
all the office girls were doing some work for Maree. It came 5.00
and she didn't want them to go. A couple of them just got up and ^
"Left so she said, "Well, there's no use in us working any longer.
' Dr Eisenberg had a Miss Fitzgerald and he didn't allow any
smoking on the campus. Nobody, not even maintenance
someone had
reported his secretary as smoking, so he fired her and hired Elsie
Hamm. She used to sing in the choir at the Methodist ^urch
Great big heavy person. He hired her and she was a graduate of
MiLi University; but she couldn't type so she wrote all his
letters
in longhand. Dr. Hamm was a Psychology Professor and they
said that they thought he had had something on Dr Eisenberg and
that's why Eisenberg hired her. Anyway she stayed for about 4
years and he sometimes had important letters that had to be typed.
He used to get Louise to come in and do it, you know. Then Dr.
He used to e
first thing Dr. Miller did when he came was
«t6ridrof Elsie
So liulse did the work for Dr. Miller for about
f vear and a half
She did both jobs without any more money. Then
a year and a ha
h
ld teach and also be a secretary
H »°babvsitter for hinK He hired this Evelyn Miller and she
and a babysit
She come and she was his
she was qualified.
secretary
Anywayf she told Louise, "You know you could have made
secretary. Any* j
coming in her and you being here so long."
fe
r
e
C
sL s:ii: "No i nevrr'w antedSto be his secretary because I didn't
-108-
want to be a babysitter." When Dr. mner lert, Evelyn Lane
stayed on. Dr. Miller went up to Allegheny College. He was in
ad^nicrr EdVCatit"} u£ thera- Evelyn stayed on through McMaster's
EntZ Came' She stayed on 'til March of
^4?
Tb
i°n ^ T
UP
DrMiH r Sha resl^ed
Allegheny to be secretary to
Dr. Miller. She said to Louise, "I have recommended you to be the
secretary to Dr. Entz when I leave." Afterward, Louise went in and
u*de£st?nd that Evelyn had recommended me as your
Itrt'i-
s i.u.i r~ r"-!«
•''•,=K
— £•'ssrjaa
saszzs-srd £F£v~
iw"
w„
-109-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumni: Norma Watson Laughner and Carl Laughner
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Norma since you've been around this area for a long time, and I know
your family has had long association with the university could you
tell us the Watson involvement with Slippery Rock University.
NL:
For as long as I can remember someone in the family who's been in
Slippery Rock or talking about Slippery Rock or involved with
alumni affairs. My Aunt Mary Hines was a graduate of Slippery
Rock. My mother worked at Slippery Rock and had gone there for a
semester. My father graduated from Slippery Rock. My whole family
was in Slippery Rock except for one brother. Three of us are
graduates of Slippery Rock of the children. Just seems like I've
seen diplomas on the wall and things like that since I was a baby.
We always looked for a word to anything that was going on at the
school. That was the center of culture for the whole town and so
everything we did as children was kind of centered in Slippery
Rock.
DK:
As a high school student during those years in which you'd be making
a decision, did you ever consider escaping Slippery Rock.
NL:
As a matter of fact I signed up for the FBI during the war and had
references sent to Washington because it was a war time situation
and I'd wanted to go into nursing but my father vetoed that. So I
decided on the FBI, then he found out I was going to Washington and
that was a no, no. So he said just go to Slippery Rock for one
semester and then if you don't like it, do what you want. So I
went to Slippery Rock and I was hooked.
DK:
We can assume that you liked it then.
NL:
I liked it yes. We had a very small school in 1944 when I started I
think there were only 40 some freshmen, 40-45 freshmen at that
time. The whole school wasn't much over 100 because there were no
men. We only had 7 men in Slippery Rock in 1944 and they were all
on the basketball team.
DK:
As a graduate of the local secondary school, then a lab school I
believe, do you have any memories that you might share with us?
About the situation in which the town kids went to a laboratory
school and were exposed to many student teachers and most of the
teachers were in fact college staff. Do you have any memories of
that area you might share?
NL*
Yes. I know we looked forward to every semester with new student
teachers. It was kind of a challenge to get to know and understand
their way of thinking and doing things. In fact, it was really
good for all of us as far as getting along with people was
concerned. Because you had to get along with a new set of people
-110-
every semester and that part was good. We also had a lot of
opportunity at that time because we were connected with the college
as an elementary school. I can remember in sixth grade we did the
Nutcracker Suite in the chapel and I was a Windfairy and we had the
orchestra from the college playing for us. All of the instructors
were dance instructors from the school and we had a lot of
opportunities in music, drama, and art. My brother was in a play
done by the school and the Maypole festivities were all elementary
children from the school. We would go over on campus and dance
around maypoles, we just had a marvelous time. That way the
connection was so good, the feeling was so good. There was just no
way you could have anything almost without being connected to the
college.
DK:
I too have fond memories of lab school situation fond memories of
excellent student teachers, yourself included.
NL:
Oh yes.
DK:
I have heard this criticism and see if we can get your reaction.
That the lab school student, because of the great variety of
student teachers they were exposed to, they also became very
skilled at testing the quality of student teachers and were
sometimes difficult to handle because we did become such experts at
baiting student teachers. Do you have any reaction to that
viewpoint?
NL:
We did that. I remember in the library when Lola Buzash, Lola
McMullen another towny was our student teacher. We were making
some funny little noises and it would spread all over the library
and she d go back to one place and we'd start her on another. She
got quite irritable about the whole thing, but we knew who we could
tease and how far we could go. We just got to know those things.
HZ Lt S ?° H e * P * r i € ? c e t h ° u S h - I would say as a whole there were
very few student teachers that were upset. I think reallv badlv
upsetfun.
by such things, by
by kids.
kids. It
It was
was more
more in
7 the ttownies,
o w n l e s . by
good
in just
DK:
deafiuh'problL!1
NL
DK
*
E°0d
exP«ieI>«
then, to learn how to
Right they were gonna have more
They were going to encounter more in much worse situations.
NL:
That's right.
DK
You were also involved with vnur
great influx of WW II GI's descendedaduate career when that
already told us about the years thereT" *1 Ca ™ PUS ' Y ° U ' V e
7
maleS °n canlPus
Any description of the reaction when thl^h
after WW II?
be boys came marching home
NL:
We had a kind of a orientation to that
.u
t when the air corps fellas
-111-
were up here. I think I was a junior in high school and we had
250-500 young men swarming around the school and marching around
the streets at 6:30 in the morning. It kind of got us ready for
the big day when the boys came marching home. But, yeah, I
remember we were used to our 7 men which turned into 22 or so the
next year and all of the sudden we had 200 men coming to Slippery
Rock. It was just wild and these fellas were out for the grades.
They knew what they wanted. They wanted to get finished, they
wanted to make a mark for themselves while they were in school, and
they were real competition for us. We made straight As before
that. When they came home you sort of slipped to Bs and Cs because
they were taking the top grades out of every class. They really
meant business and the girls learned to adjust and also got a lot
of husbands during that period.
DK:
That was my next question. How long did it take you to sift through
the group to decide where to concentrate your interests and efforts
on these new arrivals?
NL:
Well let's see, Carl came to school in 1946 and I got him in 1947
and we were married in 1948. It was several month's there after he
was in a class with me, a drama class then we got in another class
together. In speech problems and by the time we got in the third
class, why you know things were moving right along and that next
summer we got married.
DK:
Let's shift to Mr. Laughner now.
CL:
Pittsburgh.
DK:
You had spent how long in the military?
CL:
Three and a half years.
DK:
Army?
CL:
Air Force.
DK:
Air Force and where all were you stationed?
CL:
Oh, all over the U.S. pretty nearly. I went to Miami for basics.
Then I went to California and spent most of my time in California
until I went to Tinian with the Marianas group. It was a very
undistinguished career. It was too late to do anything in Marianas
except get ready to come home. I like to think that when I was in
California the reason I didn't get shipped out until the regulation
changed was that we ran things very nicely despite the regulations.
Then they decided they couldn't do what they had been doing all
along, that the oldest man in gray had to go and when that order
came out I immediately shook hands with my buddy and I was right.
About a week later I went. I was the oldest sergeant in gray but I
had worked on P-38s and they were as different as day and night.
The new boys coming out had no idea what to do with the old ones
and so they kept us around and didn't ship us out the way we
-112-
Your home town was where, Carl?
- f l ,ii v
should've been shipped out. truthfully.
But mostly I was in
California.
^ ^ V I nav did you return home?
About how long after VJ Day en y
r 1QU
I had enough points to come home.
I came home in February of 1946.
You came home on points.
™rld
Well much of the U.S. and part of the
Well after seeing theJf°ri •
metropolitan area of Pittsburgh,
world, and having grown p
to select Slippery Rock?
I'd be interested in knowing now y
Well one of your teachers^
- in
i ob° at"that 0 time
Td
and we talked him into going to school and
he went to Slippery Rock and I helped him move here.
May I interrupt?
That means you and Bob Sinclaire had been friends
in Pittsburgh?
Yes I knew him before that. Yeah, so when I came home - -he had
served in the infantry--and when I came home he asked me what I was
going to do. I said if I'm ever going to do it I might as well go
?o school. My last parent had died during the war so I moved here
lock, stock and barrel. We had 7 pieces of hand luggage all of
which belonged to me on the old Harmony Bus, and he claimed 3 of
them and I claimed 4 of them.
They let us out at the long
and moved here with everything I owned, and just stayed 2 1/2 year
• - it m p n /1
You completed 4 in 2 1/2 years?
Yes.
That must be some sort of record.
No, I think there were quite a few who did that. You had to carry
22 hours one semester which if you remember Miss McKay?
That was my next question. How in heavens name did Miss McKay
permit that kind of record?
Well, she made a bad mistake. I said to her I wanted to take 22
hours and she said absolutely not and I said to her Miss McKay to
whom do I speak next and she said Dr. Duncan. She could've bitten
her tongue off immediately because Dr. Duncan would let you do
anything. Now I don't mean Duncan the historian. I mean Duncan..Dr. Leonard Duncan?
That s right and I went in and he sat a little bit and he thought
we could try that. I didn't get along with Miss McKay for about a
month until I got back in her good graces again. As you can
imagine you knew that lady. I finally had to take two courses in
-113-
health and physical education to have, to piece out my credits.
There was a woman here in our major field who didn't draw students
and I signed up I think. There was only one other person signed
up. The teacher will remain nameless. She's been dead a long
time. Miss Burns was one of the transients and nobody else would
sign up so I said well I'll take something. So I went oyer and
took a health education, course in community health I think it was
called and I took two. I don't remember what the other one was. I
needed 6 hours that summer and I got them by going over to the
health education class.
DK:
That sort of sounds like my experience with Miss McKay. Being a
Korean Vet not a WW II Vet I had many friends in other colleges who
were being excused from physical education because of military
duty. I kept delaying my physical education courses until the
beginning of my senior year. At which time she called me into her
office and told me there would be no way I'd graduate from Slippery
Rock State College with out my 3 required physical education
courses. The tone of her voice and glint of her eyes, I knew she
meant it. So I spent my last semester taking 3 physical education
courses.
CL:
I forget how much we were exempted from but we had to take them
too. In fact I had to run around the field once at the end of the
day. I think 3 times around Thompson field because I said son-ofa-bitch on the side to somebody. I didn't say it to anyone in
particular. I was talking to one of my friends. I think Vern
Swagger. I said that son of a bitch of a Smile. He said you run 3
times around the track.
DK:
That was my next question, you answered it.
compelled you to this additional duty.
CL:
Yes.
DK-
Could either of you in some order name your professors who
influenced you to the greatest extent, during your stay at Slippery
Rock?
CL:
I'm sure we will both agree on Miss Burns.
that and I'll say some you didn't have.
NL:
And Dr. Spotts too was very influential in me staying in English
because I had a couple of physical education people telling me I
should be in physical education. I wasn't particularly interested
but Jan Burns was probably our closest friend and teacher because
of our interest in speech and English and she was an excellent
friend. I guess because she gave us her apartment when we got
married. We lived in her apartment for that last semester and we
kept in touch with her until the time she died last year. She just
was a very good person to talk with to just sit down and talk
things over with when you were having difficulties, or just someone
to talk with. You could go into her apartment anytime and be
assured of a listener. She was a wonderful person.
-114-
Was it Smiley who
Then why don't you say
I have a feeling she was just like family.
She really was.
She was brilliant too.
And she had a family.
She didn't parade but man how well rounded she was.
Very good.
T M 1 e W * t-hiq n o t t o p a t m y o w n b a c k , b u t w h e n I w a s a n
i
aAd was
was^having
having a conversation
with her, and I'm,not
undergraduate
and
.
^
.
ng uke
but
she
said
of
«Tinmv kids "
which was a term she often used, "of all my kids the
ones I think I will have the least to worry_about. that I feel most
sh® referred to me.
confident about, are the Laughners and Y°uI considered that a real compliment and I know she meant it for you
folks.
Yes that would be. Well she had a nice family. We had a really
great time together in the drama dept. We had a nice group that
worked together and played together.
We actually have a nice picture where everybody looks good. You'd
think we're in a very high class place all dressed properly and
that was Alpha Psi Omega, right?
Yes.
And we still have that picture.
Did you have a feeling that she thought you had potential but maybe
needed a little additional attention? A push and actually develop
in a way?
Oh, sure she did.
And she was very knowledgeable about speech correction which nobody
knows about in our field today you know. She told me at the end of
my career here that we used to tape when we came in. I don't know
if you still do that but, we used to do a tape or record and then
they evaluated it. They never told you anything about it except
that they felt that they learned something from it . And she said
"I never had a tape like yours before." She said, "there were some
things you did beautifully other things that were terrible and your
pronunciation would be Pennsylvania Dutch" as it would like me to
be because I was reared in a Dutch town, "and North side and then
* ,gs ** wfs as if you taught yourself," she said. "But at
least you ve straightened out at least reasonably." She was a very
ilike that- When we said Doc Spotts we
neglected him. I don t know if you know it or not but his grammar
-115-
was the second best seller in the U.S. which coming from here isn't
easy to do. Yet, he even got it published, and I think you
probably know how that was done. But Doc never entertained you.
He wasn't an entertainer. And that brought me to one I don't think
Norma did have. That's Joe Frazier and I told Joe this, I said to
him that, "I learned more from him in three hours of government
than I did from, "then the head of the department, "the head of the
department in six hours of history." I learned more history from
Joe in three hours of government than I did from the head of the
department in six hours of history. He didn't entertain you
either. That's how you made the transition from one to the other.
NL:
I remember George Miller too because we had have been rarely open to
art as such. Lillian Griffin was good but she was a traditionalist
and kind of austere. But George was a warm kind of outgoing
fellow. He made you learn your poetry along with learning the art
and I did learn an awful lot of art in a short time from George
Miller.
CL:
And there's a nice contrast here because I didn't have George. I
had Martha Gault. Martha had brought the new in and we did less
with the classics and more with a new text, which tried to develop
our taste in general rather than recognition of the classics.
Which incidentally doesn't fit in with what is done on the National
Teachers Exam. You better recognize a few of those famous classics
if you want to score anything in the art. Because people that
didn't know them and they couldn't pass the exam until we said,
"hey, take this and look at 100 of these and then maybe you can do
it." But at least learn that area. I learned some advertising
terms and so on which I used when I first retired working in
another completely separate industry where I was doing some
printing work and I had done so as alumni director. Things I
learned from Martha I applied and made a buck that way. Which is
kind of nice to know even when you're 62 years old, I was then.
It's nice to know you can apply something you learned in college.
It isn't always that you can do that as you all know a good bit of
it just drops down the drain.
DK:
It sounds as though your experience is a dovetail of mine. Had
there been any option there would have been some courses I would
not have taken, music appreciation, art appreciation. I would have
avoided them. However, in all those instances I took away a great
deal that I never expected to take away and that I have utilized
and referred to often in my life.
NL:
I've got to mention too, I think of here, more as an elementary
school teacher but she was really a college teacher and that was
Gladys Arnold. She probably had the most effect on my entire life
more effect than any other teacher I knew, and that was probably
because she was with me longer. But because I was so interested in
music and she encouraged me from the time I was a little kid. You
know she told me if I worked I could do this and thus and so it
worked out. I'm still very interested in music, and still using my
music at the age of 62, which you can't do with a baton and you
-116-
CL:
,--k nfhpr skills but she made me see that
can't do lots of times w
ur voice so for a ion
with practice and industry you can u
y
time.
» ^a-i,prq that we shouldn't miss because I don't
And one of Norma s teacher
had h(jr as a criti
know how much if you ve heard"^^.
j ^ her fls
a coUeague
teacher when s e «aa
Lois
Harner
I
don't know
f w
that was
m the college and Dean or wo
^ l>n t never^aid a^orc^to anybody, hut a guy who would be flunking
English and I remember there was a time, I don t know if it was
when you were here if you flunked English three times you were out
of the school. You had to make a »C» in three times and many times
she would quietly tutor somebody and get him through when nobody in
the English Department, and I'm kicking myself in a way because I
was originally in both departments. That's how I got here. She
would coach them on the side and get them through, save them, and
she did that a good many times. Most people didn't even know she
did that when she was Dean of Women.
DK:
She was a remarkable women I had her from ninth grade onward.
NL:
Yes. She came after Matilda Bailey left.
Bailey?
DK:
I did not know Matilda Bailey.
NL:
She was fantastic but we only had her for two years.
stayed for two years.
CL
You've been told that she came back as a dollar a year a person?
DK
Yes.
CL
Matilda Bailey.
DK
Yes.
CL
And frequently flew twice to New York and back in the course of a
week. Which indicated she wasn't living on that buck or what was
drew it at that time which I don't think
she did"7'
NL:
She only
FnMcl a cauti°n- This boy Howard Wilson fell asleep in our
CVeryone file °"t very quietly and let
him sleep
Th^neYf16
and there he was sleeping and
finally he wnko
• ° u?S came
I trust vou had a !
Y* diffetent class altogether an5 she saic
™
CL:
Do you remember Matilda
•» ~u. ,.u..«... i.
You fell asleep?
-117-
DK:
No, I had a student fall asleep and as the class filed out I said
shh, and when the next class period came in I said shh. Halfway
through the next class period he awakened himself and looked right
and left and turned all around and didn't recognize anyone.
NL:
That's a terrible feeling.
CL:
I fell asleep after the Worlds Fair in Chicago. It was in 1933 and
1934 and I had gone in 1934. I'd been up for three nights. I
hadn't been in bed. The first day of school was after I came back
and if you were done at 3:05 you had to be out of school. If you
were there at 3:15 you stayed. I just had a new job and I fell
asleep at the end of this class. A teacher I didn't know, who
didn't know me and I'm still sleeping at 3:15. The bell rang and I
realized what time it was and I said to her, "I've been at the
Worlds Fair I'll explain this to you tomorrow. I have to go to
work I have a different job." And I left. I don't even know how
articulate I was. I had to be in town, which was a mile and
something, in 15 minutes to go to my new job. That was some
incredible experience. You awaken people and I fell asleep.
NL:
Warren Strain, you remember Dr. Strain, he let my brother Tom sleep
one day and when he woke up his suspenders broke and he jumped up
and Warren Strain was telling everybody that story for the next ten
years. He'd tell about Tom waking up and breaking his suspenders
and flying up through the air.
DK:
Well we have you both graduated now in 1948 and 1949 and we know you
didn't come back from Slippery Rock for a few years. What did each
of you do in the interim?
NL:
Well I graduated in January. There were 13 of us that skipped that
last semester we just speed up a little bit and graduated in
January. But I was the only one that got a job and I give all the
credit to Dr. Weisenfluh. He was looking out for me very well and
they needed an English instructor down at Coraopolis High School.
They had interviewed 42 and I was 43 and they hired me and I don't
know why yet. It was a cold winter day when we went down there I
came back with a job and I stayed down there for 4 1/2 years. Of
course we had our first child so I was doing substitution work down
at Hampton Township High School and Carl got a chance to move back
to Slippery Rock. So we moved back up to Slippery Rock in 1955 and
he was teaching in the English department, I guess.
CL:
Two.
NL:
Speech and English.
CL:
They needed someone in both departments and both Mrs. Burns and
Dr. Spotts knew me and agreed I could be half-time in their
Departments. That's what they needed, they didn't need anybody,
there was still only about 1000 students in '55 roughly, and that's
how that was. It was strange I had a new masters degree in English
-118-
, „ree in speech but it was all
I didn't really have a masters
right anyhow.
)K:
SL:
^re did you
i assume you taught during that lapse too,
«.%. Mil district like Harlem in
I taught in Herron Hill. T^/pittsburgh and it was a very
New York. That's what it is in
^get al
If you
S3SHSSS £•*»Iltht""
NL:
CL:
97% black.
4 f9nh when I left it was 90% black.
Yes almost 100% black^ graduated from here, older than I,
Yet, I can name two tea^f*^edgbecause they liked it. I worked
and had chance to move but stay
became activltles director,
four maybe four years or five,
because we had 1150 students,
which was the only junior high •^t^a^tivities director. You
something like that, ^at
^
think of inciuding
did everything and anything e
?
i did that
hat
u had.
keeping the books forJ*e ®
Shapiro took my job when I was
Dr
before I came here. The trustee Dr. ^nap
iviti;s director, no
called back in the Korean War.
later on she
-b?n -2TI-
Wp' I don't know where else but we're still good friends. It's
, . i' r interesting that we taught in the same school. I was going
to say you'd think about a school like that about everybody being
under-privileged. But one of my favorite stories is that I had a
class where nobody in that class except for 2 students, bhere was
thirty something, everybody had an IQ of 135 or above. Two ki
were over achievers. They only had about 125. One of whom was
Josephine Nelson who's father was in prison for being treasurer ol
the communist party, at that time. I had already had Albert
Albertson who's father was president of the communist party.
Remember the ten they prosecuted about that time? That would be
about 1947, 1948 somewhere 1949 somewhere in there. They sent ten
of them, jailed them actually and I had Albertson as a student
teacher and then got Josephine. Josephine was a good student. She
couldn't read and her writing was terrible but we got that
straightened out and she was in that class. She was one of the
ones that had a good IQ. It was an interesting experience. I
never had a class that good when I came to the college if you want
to know the truth. Because they, other than being immature, they
were in 8th grade; I had them in 8th and 9th grade. Two subjects,
homeroom, English and Social Studies. So you could do anything you
wanted so the one year that I had them we did the standard
literature. We did whatever grammar necessary with them. It
wasn't very much. We did the school newspaper and we did three
citizen education projects which was a big thing Columbia did all
over the U.S. all in one hour class. Now a full hour. I had them
for lunch hour therefore I got ten minutes more out of them but we
did all of that in one hour with
"
*
-119-
DK:
How did you hear of or how was the contact made that there was an
opening in Slippery Rock?
CL:
I guess Dr. Spott's called me and said maybe if I applied I could.
I had a little trouble with Dr. Hauk. I came here and I told
Pittsburgh that having an unusual job that I wouldn't quit after
July 15, June 15. No it had to be July because we taught until the
22nd and I came and I still had nothing to say. I was working
here, Dr. Hauk said "you'll have the job." Well I knew enough
about the politics of this kind of thing that maybe the state would
change their minds and I said no that I had promised and this was
the last day and if I didn't have it I was going to stay where I
was. He wasn't happy but he called Harrisburg and verified the
appointment and I stayed here rather than there.
DK:
How long were you in classes here before you became involved in
alumni affairs?
CL:
Not until 1970. So 1955-1970, 17 years.
DK:
I think you were the first director of alumni affairs, is that
correct?
CL:
No. Cliff Underwood was hired with that job that was his training
and background he came from the same place Dr. Hauk had been. San
Jose State.
NL:
In California.
CL:
We were very happy he was a very capable person but he didn't
handle money as well as he should have. When he left we had $400.
It appeared that we had $4000 but we owed all but $400 from there
it was you know I had....
DK:
Is this a topic we ought not to pursue too far?
CL:
No it's alright. The first time I held a homecoming. We ate in
the cafeteria because there was no money to hold anything with and
I wasn't spending any money until we saw how it was going and then
it improved substantially. When I left we had--I don't knowbetween $100,000 and $130,000 with close to $100,000 for N. Kerr
Thompson and maybe $30,000 more. Oh no, 27 for, you know whatever
the rest was that's not important but we weren't poverty stricken
anymore we had rather nice things.
DK:
How many years did you work in that office, Carl?
CL:
1970 until, oh boy, I don't know 1978 until I was 62 you want to
know one extra semester I stayed.
NL:
Yes
CL:
Because they asked me to.
-120-
DK:
I've heard it said that -chers « ~
scZls 3 5 ^^'s'your experience?
CL:
That's definitely true.
What'a your reaction?
The athletes are willing to contribute
sr^'s. ttii 22 :s .i..?.ai«» .«> *.<•.
*uS
truly undefeated not just the conference they were undefeated
throughout. A few of the basketball players and don't know really
of anybody else as strong as they were. It was primarily for the
for the football men that started that other teachers had the
feeling that its a state school and we know many of these by name
but won't name them. They say I, not doing that, I don't need
anything from them. Well that's not true either. Although we may
not do as good a job placement ten years later as some other
universities might. For instance I heard the other day that
Westminster took care of a graduate who's been out six years a
replacement to even recounseling. I don't, maybe we don't do that
quite as well and I don't know anymore but they felt it's state
supported and that's all it is but they don't realize that
currently I'm sure you could name the percentages; this much from
state this much from tuition and want anything other better have
someone dishing it in. In fact I'm just going to serve on the
foundation. I just was accepted on the foundation.
NL:
There were a good many years there too where you had to get your
masters some place else and your loyalties became divided. Like
we'd go to Pittsburgh, we went to Pitt together, he went to Penn
State and you get to lose that close bond. You know with your
original certificate and the school that gave it to you. I think
that had maybe something to do with it. Then teachers weren't paid
very much that's another thing. You ask them for 5 dollars and
they want to know what good this is gonna do me. You ask them for
10 or 20 or a life membership and they just drag their feet about
that.
DK:
That s sort of the direction I was going. Now that we're more of a
multipurpose institution and creating business people and all sorts
of professions is that maybe part of the reason for some of the
improving situations? I'm assuming that the situation is
improving, I'm not positive.
CL:
NL:
a whole lot really.
The foundation does the best they can but
they have not raised a great deal of money. The money i s s t i l l
t h e a l u m n i association and the
department. I pretty nearly know that.
:vr?haf^hWlth the nUmber
0f
««*«... ^
CL:
e
were 3 when W I had"^ 1 ThereTasTperiod
i^th
^ when
h 3 *" 6 we
"""h"
a period in
there
had a"
-121-
couple of alumni directors who only stayed a little bit and there
were a many lot because I mailed to 22,000. Sally's mailing to
23,000 but she started around 18 and picked up the rest again. So
really we're still only contacting about the same number of people
I was contacting.
DK:
This is probably an unfair question, but I wonder what we can do in
creating an atmosphere here to engender loyalty to the degree that
they're willing to reach in their pockets?
CL:
I don't really know. I think and thing that I see is in this
institution the teachers themselves are not sufficiently supportive
to stimulate the kids. Remember how you were an iconoclast when
you first started to teach? I'm sure you must have been. You
know, you're gonna smash all the idols--we seem to have quite a few
who continue to smash them. You know not anything constructive
happens after that and I don't care if you quote me to anybody,
that happens. In fact, I have been told, now I haven't served on
foundation yet, but I have been told that very little comes from
the faculty. Yet in some institutions the faculty contributes
substantially.
NL:
I notice too, in the people that come back on alumni day, their the
ones who have deep connections with Slippery Rock. They've made
certain sentimental attachment to something here, and there doesn't
seem to be as much of that going on as there was. I mean we don't
have the nature trail and the green and white.
DK:
Are we increasingly afraid of sentiment or embarrassed by sentiment.
NL:
I think the whole world is. I think that's the way things are going
today. No emotional attachments whatsoever, but there are always
those people who look for that. If they don't find it they give it
up.
CL:
I just want to throw something in here, I'm digressing now but...
DK:
That's fine go ahead.
CL:
When we talked about this sort of thing we had that old business
where we were served in the dining room. In fact when I went here
we were served twice a day breakfast was the only one we weren't
served. Then they cut out the lunch, but we were still served
dinner family style. Assuming that most of us were first
generation to go to college. Which was true and still is
frequently. I think we learned something that way we also knew
that we could kick it around and make fun of it a little bit.
Still that it was good for a good many of us that's one of the
things I wanted to say. There maybe I'll come back to when we
talk about it a little more.
DK:
Well I'm nearly to the point to say or just to open it up and stop
being the guide with the directions you want here and allowing
either of you the free time and space here to make any observations
-122-
summaries or otherwise, about your experiences with Slippery Rock.
Your memories, on other words the interviewer seems to be running
low.
Well as speaking as a towny and watching the school grow all these
years I don't know that it's that much better because it's that
much bigger. It was always a good school. It's never been to the
point where it could have been called a bad school. They always
had good teachers even when they only had 100 students. They had
good teachers where there was only maybe 20 of them here. They
started out that way and they had a quality that was maintained
over the years. I feel, and I think that's still being done, I
think we still have very fine instructors and...
I wouldn't dare say this if I wasn't on the staff myself but I often
times compare myself and some of my colleagues to those persons
that I remember from my undergraduate days, and feel we fall a bit
short in several areas.
Discipline maybe, some of them maybe in discipline, because as I
remember there was a lot of work going on in the library not just
by the students but by the professors too. You felt that in the
classes, you knew you had the feeling that here was a lot to be
learned.
That was one of the things I was going to get to. I'm going to
name some women, Mrs. Dubard who should not be nameless by any
means, and she used to take I would think three classes of freshmen
who were doing exhaustive research papers. Alright, now she not
only collected paper and your outline, she collected your note
cards arranged in some form of organization. Then she'd give them
r* y°U ?nd
"an alternate organization." Now you do this
>e
?
W
£
V ?
u
several hundred note cards. I'm not saying I
Jel!hprr>S'
I vad 3 fuU Pack' Wel1 1 had almost 2 packs. I
remember it was a debate topic and she gave me a very fine
with"what ^af^h^
^ iC because 1 "as
beautlful things like that.
women had L snend
Now that
tile mavbe ?7 00 b
5 " day ln addicion to teaching at that
done. Well she haHUrS f" y°U say how i" the hell could you get
us, we were her fam*?0 a?1 ^ and Put
® hours in which came to
The guy in Termp^\ 1* 6ffeCt did y°u knov who *he taught?
W 3t Wa? bis name?
one time
She had
The well known author at
heart attack and even wrote
^^"h° h"d
3
Oh, Jesse Stuart.
Jesse Stuart.
I didn't know that.
He's one of
ffly
favorite authors.
because he wa^nftura^talenrvo^kn °h ^ thou8ht he was Sreat
her tutelage. So that'c
a ^ u,know a^d boss him somewhat under
S klnd of interesting, but that was —
one
-123-
the things I was going to add to the dining room bit. The other
thing is, I concur with you that it was a good thing that I had to
take a lot of subjects. I'm still lousy in geography but because I
had two courses that made me employable in the Pittsburgh public
schools. When you teach social studies there the geography and
history are combined and they'd pass the Pitt grads up just boom
boom. In my school and many others I knew and here somebody from
the state teachers college because you came with maybe 30 whatever
hours but also had six hours in geography. There was something to
be said for that not only because it made you employable but,
because you needed some of those things I did. I'm still ignorant
in geography and I've been a lot of places but I hardly can locate
them
That was sort of a finale for me. I didn't want to miss
Mrs. Dubard because she was a perfect example of a ....
DK.
I had her as a high school student.
CL:
Did you?
NL:
Oh, did you?
DK:
Yes.
CL:
And she liked men there was no doubt she was friendlier to men than
women.
DK:
I was perhaps not perceptive enough to notice that. I was pretty
young at the time. Probably 9th or 10th grade, I'm not sure.
CL:
But the work that women did. The other thing is you remember that
when we came here to teacher college every teacher had 5 years in
the public schools somewhere or another. There were a few cheats
then but not very many. They usually had a couple of summers and
winters and maybe a doctorate to boot and then it began to go where
that wasn't necessary and rightly so. You can't find people with a
doctorate in physics who have taught five years in a public school.
That doesn't work.
NL:
That's how I got my opportunity to substitute because I'd already
taught in public schools and I went into the English Speech Dept.
CL:
We didn't mention that she taught here for almost how many years?
NL:
About 9-9 1/2 years. 1958-1967.
CL:
Part-time and full time and so on.
NL:
I taught part time in the speech department. Practically all of my
experience was with freshmen. One freshmen class after another. I
finally got a class teaching speech because one of the women took
sabbatical and I had to teach which was a nice experience.
CL:
Well, she filled in for the department chairman in one of the drama
classes when she was injured.
-124-
NL:
vin high school too.
Well, I had taught dr«a £ Wg
that was being done in Coraopoii
I had all the drama
CL:
•
that when she went to Coraopolis the man
What I was saying
She said the windows I said
driven out.
that was ahead of h« was ^
^^ ehlrtieB probably 6
the door. He was
drove hlm out anyhow and she
something in height, Dig g y
well,
was 21 and a new graduate. She did very wen.
NL:
T
^
^
He had a class of football
Uhv he was driven out, too.
s all tl except one beautiful girl named Deloris. I'll tell
you that was a class.
CL:
Anyhow she did so well they asked her if there was anything she'd
like to do
She said she'd like to take a speech class and they
allowed her to have a speech class for the seniors^ The good
seniors. In other words the pick class and thereafter you taught
at least one.
NL:
Every semester I had one speech class.
CL:
That's kind of interesting that she had done that she had more
experience than I did when I came here.
NL:
They had speech there for a little over 12 years, because the little
old lady who had taught it retired.
DK:
That would be Norma's second opportunity at experimental speech
class. Since I was in her first it was real interesting. Years
later I had never been able to figure out why I was selected for
that group because it was such a select group. When I was in
college and I got to know the supervisor of the class a little
better I said, "Miss B. how is it that I got into that select
group?" She said "Well there were two types of people in that
group. People that we didn't feel needed anymore English and
people that we felt further instruction in English wasn't going to
do any good anyway, they might benefit from speech." Then she just
fell silent.
NL:
That sounds like her.
DK:
Am I to draw my own conclusions as to which eroup I fell into and
she said "you may."
CL:
lit
there graduate of Slippery Rock who
his (Wr°
j
students to Penn State and he g
e t^ght hls entlre career at another college ve
satisf^tntn
T
SOme graduate work with some of his stude
and thev thr> Kt- I
But °ne °f his instructors said
me one time "UH t'
d
yOU
do with a fella Uke that? "
has great talent A a
°
but not badly^ but he cannot ^eU.^'^
^
teacher in
clrSt sch°larship
-125-
DK:
I'm well aware of who that is. I had him in speech class and
Problems of Democracy. You can imagine Joe Frazier's attention to
detail and how Mr. Sinclair got along in trying to write on the
chalkboard in problems.
NL:
And he couldn't say aluminum.
CL:
I met one of his graduate students and he taught elective courses
until such time as they had appreciation of theater. You know
about where we began to have another appreciation here and he said
to these students who must have been seniors at least, he said,
"fellas what the hell am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to have
classes in this." You know evidently he'd go in and they would
take the N.Y. Times theater section and begin from there and
compare it to the classics and this, that and the other. Which
he'd do very well so his students laid out the course the way it
was supposed to be taught, so he could teach it. I thought that
was interesting. They weren't demeaning him by any means. They
thought he was great. He just didn't care about organizing
something like that.
NL:
He was the best man at our wedding.
DK:
I guess creative would be a good description.
NL:
Yes.
DK:
Very creative person.
CL:
Miss Burns helped him right through his Master's.
did. No doubt about it. Strange fella.
DK:
Well...
CL:
I don't know anything else that has to be said.
DK*
There's probably a lot more to be said that could be said. It s
been a pleasure you've been very helpful and cooperative. I'm sure
this will be a fine addition to our oral history. Thank you both
very much.
-126-
I'm sure she
SIlp,„,
"°""
Alumnus: Donald Kelly
Interviewer: Joseph Riggs
, « a , y . « , - i l , — b . « k . 1 0 , t b l . community?
J R
Forestville-Harrisville area.
JR:
Do you recall the name?
DK
His name was James Shields. Not long after my maternal
grandfather's family, named Johnson, moved into the area from
eastern Pennsylvania. So on my mother's side a vepr lengthy period
of time; on my father's side, however, they are all Hoosiers and
not native Pennsylvanians.
JR:
So, from 1797 until now your family has been in the area?
DK:
Yes. They have been in the area permanently.
variety of farmers, shopkeepers, blacksmiths.
JR:
Any horse thieves?
DK:
We have had problems in some branches of the family with alcoholism
but I don't know of any horse thieves.
JR:
So then you grew up here as a youngster?
DK:
Yes. In my earliest years we moved around a lot. My father was
employed by Western Electric and he was transferred often. I have
lived on the fringes of Slippery Rock most of my life. I have
never lived in the borough. I lived in Fores tville from the time I
was one until I was five. I lived in New Castle from five until I
was eight. Then we moved to Worth Township, which is just west of
Slippery Rock, where I went to one room country schools until I
entered the labratory school of Slippery Rock College. During my
senior year of high school my parents moved back to Forestville.
So, most of my life I have been in the Slippery Rock Area.
JR:
The Lab school back then was for what ages?
DK:
The Lab school was for the borough students from K-12; however,
there were outlying townships such as Worth Township where I lived
that sent students there only after ninth grade. We had an eighth
grade test system at the time and all of the township students, and
,•P^yivan'a wide, not a local thing, and you took an
erSe which I
° f 6 i g h t g r a d e t 0 q u a l -ify you to enter ninth
C ? n a i d e r e d h i gh school at the time.
I como?^
And so in 1944
completed the eighth grade at Wolf Creek Public School which is
-127-
They have been a
on Route 108 which is west of Slippery Rock and then in the autumn
of 1944 came to Slippery Rock in the labratory school.
JR:
So in those early years up until the time you were 14 you were in
and out of Slippery Rock?
DK:
Oh yes this is where the shopping was done. This is where you
visited physicians, dentists, and there was a theatre, and it was
the closest theatre, known as the Roxy, so this is where you came
to movies, etc.
JR:
The Roxy has only been gone 12 years?
DK:
Not much more than that. I can't pin down the year when it burned
but it was, it opened about 1939 and functioned until the early
1970's.
JR:
Father Ragni used to hold Mass there?
DK:
I believe so.
JR:
The present high school was not built when you came here?
here on the campus?
DK:
That's right. What is now known as Maree McKay Education Building
was the elementary school and the high school, K-12. However, all
of the staff at the lab school were employees of Slippery Rock
State Teachers College at that time. They were all at least
assistant professors on the staff here. Some of them taught only
lab school classes but in some cases regular professors even as
high as full professors came over to the lab school to refresh
themselves at the elementary and secondary level. And so from
ninth grade on I was taught by college professors and I think it
had a lot to do to inspire me; I had excellent teaching in almost
all instances.
JR:
That's kind of a lost art for ranking faculty to teach in a
secondary school situation.
DK:
Yes, there was a lot lost. I realize we can't go back. The school
is currently simply too large. There are too many student
teachers. It was getting that way even before the labratory school
was terminated and you couldn't get a student teaching experience
worth very much with eight or ten student teachers in a given room.
That just isn't very practical--so it had to go. But when it
worked, I think it worked well. It was good for the students. The
student teachers had a full experience. I did my student teaching
later at the lab school and you did everything. You sponsored an
extra-circular activity, you keep state books on attendance, you
went out to teach. After you had a student teaching experience at
the lab school you were ready to step into any situation. You had
been well prepared for the rigors of teaching.
JR:
Fairly intense supervision?
I had forgotten about that.
-128-
It was
DK:
JR:
DK:
Yes, very intense. And some of the names that are well-known on
campus now by buildings and so forth. My ninth grade English
teacher was Lois Harner for whom Hamer Hall is named. I had Carl
Spotts for whom, of course, the building in which we are now
sitting is named. I had many others who did not get buildings
named for them. Keller Shelar, Winnie May Dubard, Wilda Brubake
and of course two that followed me throughout my educational car1"
and later became my colleagues, very near and dear in my heart ***
Charles Halt and Joseph Frazier. I had them from ninth grade until
twelfth and then had the good fortune of coming back and working
with them as colleagues years later.
°
program?
°f^sch°o1'
K:
R:
•C:
a
full athletic
No.
Those were war years and basketball was one of the only two
sports
my senior year I think
football, no baseball
R:
did they have
Thev
7
virtually every year until
" excePtionally good. But no
What was the university called thon?
were state teachers college?
t*.
W*S
PosC-normal school.
Yes, we were state teachers college then.
So there were how many college students
around then?
then?
hLuaents around
Beincr nnltT
1 r ic
Being
onlv 1/.
14 IS
but I judge around 700ytor8001woild1hn'C K°nitor that real closely
th® waF years at one point and a™?
my guess and during
r™
not state this
authoritatively I believe at one
?
"v
in this institution
hand
all of!L
f*
°nly 9 males
handicap or something that rro
whom had some sort of a
fact, to add a Htuf spLe^avbf^ them from beinS Rafted. In
totallY "^nown for
bovs°d " fenlales <>f the college to
boys during those lean years S
occasionally date high school
TV> A v A
There Was SOmeth1^
From about 1944-45
Zr!T"
Were
-bout the Afrika Corp?
Tm „ -
waited he^Tsi^1
War's
-d, air corp
and using colleg^f °f
^Teachers •
ties
tha
would bring work c5
*
'
Y would bw*
I WGre housed her'
Reynolds which
Vv
°m the Prisoner of g'
government
War camP at Camp
particular in «.
Transfer Pa
a
from Ro™el'aSA?rikaacm°St alf °f'th^m"^11*'
V"'
rpwork and anv
«
They would
incarcerated there wert
and any moving 0f beds and so folvT down he" a"d do lawn
for the air corp cadets;
them on
-129-
We
youngster^beine
young men.
f th" Sort of thinS- 1 "member as a
impressed with the physical nature of these
JR:
You mean the German soldiers?
DK:
Yes.
Hltl« had created a master race
ofSblondbhfaded° hw"
6
ri
S
men. Very haoDV hv fb^
?? ' tbey were quite handsome young
the war was over Uk W*y' ™6y sh°Wed no discontent, for them
ne war was over and they seemed very happy about that.
JR:
^earilWtercehnicrar^agini^?flying'
DK:
JR:
bel"g trai-d
I really don't know where they were flying.
^ere?
Wa£
But ves all of th*
SS'S.^-S.'SSi s.srf: ' —
particularlyhstrUting?
DK:
°MS
th°S6 yea" 1944
" 1948
that
I
Lf^!SS like m°ft people who erew up in the World War II era
images are mostly related to the war. It permeated almost
mv
7
^ W" nGWS' friends and
reports""of T
relatives gone,
3 k
the l0Cal pe°ple 3nd
RaHnnL T
forth
vlvidlybit difffrenreme
L^ing on a farm the situation was a
nn5
iTWe W6re ^0t y affected meat rationing because we
had our own. We were affected by sugar rationing. I can remember
with°whi^hSaVe eaC5\m®mber of the family their own weekly ration
ach you could bave a sweet orgy or string it out for the
week. Another area that gave the rural boys an advantage was gas
tracto^fnr ?CTe farme?S Sot more 6as» which they needed for the
tractors for food production and such, the farm boys always had a
S2U1" their Sirlfriends around.
b^H a6 t
The city boys
had A stamps, while the farmers had C and R stamps. These were
designations of how much gas one was allowed to buy
I certainlv
remember in April of 1945 in the school. All the students gathered
in the auditorium, listening to the radio broadcasting the news of
the end of the war in Europe. I would say those WW II days left
big imprints on all those of my generation.
JR:
There was no lower campus to the university at that time?
DK:
No. In fact there were only two classroom buildings then for
college students. The building that is now housing Psychology
across from East Gym, that building and Old Main were the only'two
classroom buildings.
JR:
High school graduation came in 1948, what then?
DK:
Well, it was off to two hitches in the navy, first a one year hitch
and then I returned later for two more years. In between were a
variety of jobs, steel mills, potteries, strip mines and so forth.
I really did not have any intentions to go to college during
-130-
high school or immediately after graduation
I was being subtly
inspired by the professors in high school and by some of the
associations I had with the professors' children. I still did not
think that college was for me. One of my best friends was the son
of the man whose title then was Dean of Instruction, who today
would be called Vice President for Academic Affairs. His name was
Leonard Duncan, and I spent a great deal of time at their home.
Apparently he imagined that he saw some merit in me. When I was in
the military he wrote me a few letters indicating that he thought
that I should enroll in college.
In 1950, after my first hitch in the navy, I went to work in
a steel mill in Youngstown, Ohio. The Korean War broke out in June
of that year. Dr. Duncan wrote me another letter in late July or
early August. His other letters had been rather pleading letters;
this one was sharp and to the point. I can remember the ending of
the letter read, "I've asked you a number of times, I'm never going
to ask you again, but I think you should be in school." And so, I
decided if he has that sort of faith in me, I ought to at least try
and live up to it. I quit the steel mill and enrolled here at
Slippery Rock.
But I only attended one semester in 1950. I was still in the
Naval Reserve, and after one semester of footing my own bills, I
smelled the possibility of a GI bill in the future and I thought
that would be my salvation. So I volunteered to be reactivated in
the reserves and I went back in for two years and indeed did get
the GI Bill. In 1952, I re-enrolled at Slippery Rock and continued
until my degree was complete.
JR:
Was that four year period from 1948 to 1952 a positive experience?
is a physicist with some agency of
experience I was exposed to some good
-131-
minds and had an enjoyable time.
her stud«*s, kind of
a Miss Jane^dv™?
me from high school *nri c*,'
? °^ae t0 colle6e» she remembered
theater and speech which ? gently nudged me in the direction of
iiu speecn, which I enjoyed very much.
hours taken^t^as^lose^n hUf
wsvasz sir? >=
Speech was my minor-
In terms of
that had the talent and ^Mili J?her®were ^ ^es chosen; those
JR:
However you got in there, it was a great thing.
•=• "--is
V~'Er:.T:'l-~
ss-ars;:?s
DK:
our debate team.
They would invite ut t"th *
xiegai at the time.
."rzs,
They were mostly WW II vets.
colleges? ^ lnterC°Uegiate
JR:
A*
debate circul«
Wlng and coached
i^r
"id you debate other
did "°trdebate ir} dosage, only in high school. In high school we
did go to forensic contests. I'll share a ctnrv ^
Ju
contests involving Judge Brydon. Judge Brydon in those days Sas
more inclined to rely on his emotions than his debate technique
The debate we were involved in on this occasion was a state
chosen topic; Resolved:
There should be compulsory arbitration o
all labor disputes. I was on the affirmative side and Judge B^don
was arguing the negative side. Of course we did not debatf eaS
other because we were debating other schools. But my partner and I
had a very finely reasoned, unemotional, perfectly logical
argument. My partner was the person who grew up to be the English
Professor spoken of before. Judge Brydon hadn't done his homework
very well, so he decided to play on the emotions. He told stories
of miners, of young men wheezing from the Black Lung, and told of
undernourished kids and he just went on and on and on. And he won
the debate. Afterward, the female judge came to our two coaches
and said, "That young boy has got to be a miner's son." She said
nobody but a miner's son could feel what he felt. The point is as
all the local people knew, John Brydon's father and grandfather'
were mine operators! But this forensic judge was moved to tears
and gave him the debate.
DK: 1
JR:
Do you remember much about theater in college?
-132-
Yes. I think my first role was as Jebaz
plays b
d
Daniel Webster." Miss Burns had a kn
^ ^particular
on the people she had
I
had a Daniel Webster
year, physically and ability wi ,
^ by glvlng me the role
y
think she was just trying to g
f rmed most competently was
of Stone. Probably the one role I perlotf^^ Reller role> the
outlet for me, to he somebody that I wasn
JR:
SunOS'
--- .
in those undergraduate years you were in History and Speech?
DK:
Yes, except then there was ™ s^b 'y^could hoisted your History
had to take Social Studies and then you co ^
Social
hours if you wished. J°u ^^"ined to teach in the public
Studies courses in order to oe certmcu
schools.
JR:
So when you graduated you had a teaching certificate?
DK:
Yes.
JR:
And did you go immediately to the lab school?
DK-
Yes
I had done my student teaching for Mr. Charles Shaw, whom I
wouid also later work with here. He also came over to the college
after the termination of the lab school. He became a Prof®"°J 1X1
the History Department. I also did some student teaching
Bill Cornell, who would later go onto the faculty at Edinboro
University and he wrote a high school text book for Pennsylvania
After graduation, I interviewed at two different school
districts. As I was leaving an interview that had interested me in
Warren, PA, I was passing the office of a man who was then serving
a dual role. He was director of the lab school, and he was also
supervising principal of the local school district. This man s
name was Dr. Clarence Long. By 1956 we were in a transition; the
lab school was going out because there simply were too many
students for that structure and we were preparing to build the new
high school, which still exists today. At any rate, as I was
passing Dr. Long's office he saw me and motioned for me to come in.
He said that just yesterday he had received a resignation from the
Social Sciences department, and would I be interested? I had never
considered staying locally and I was sort of looking forward to
getting away from where I had been all my life. I told Dr. Long
that I would talk it over with my wife and let him know in a couple
days. Considering expenses and the fact that we were soon to be
parents, and all of the difficulties in moving, this job sounded
like a real easy way out. So I went back and accepted and went to
work immediately.
My role teaching in the lab school was a little different, in
-133-
and role taking and that sort of thing.
JR:
fc people who had faculty rank who taught in the lab schools, did
they have to have graduate degrees?
DK
Yes, a Masters degree was required.
JR
What grades did you begin teaching in?
DK
I began teaching 7th and 8th grade English.
JR
How did that happen?
DK:
That happened because of all of the Speech
an""
I had taken P*- "Vg^'ml en^h credos*tLt Har?isbSg
that sort of thing. It gave
J teU that part of the story.
could certify me. In fact,
,.
, t the
covered
When Dr. Long interviewed me 1he ttld M^that^
have English
is:Sh,r
SSiScSJoTS1^^b- ^ready t-lewed my creditSeanddId
™eo..
JR:
You taught writing and literature and such?
DK:
Oh yes.
And also 10th greekeWorld
section^of 8thUgradeSEnglish and five sections of 10th grade World
History.
JR:
Fun years?
DK:
Yes, definitely.
JR:
You knew the parents of most of the kids?
DK:
Yes. I was warned by many
buffrfaily1^
I was going to have the chil
..../-pif.serving but I think I
did not find that,^°*b
^g^knew the family background of a lot
was a better teach
was in a lot Qf cases more sympathetic,
of these kid5; , I thin
^ and in some cases maybe I came down a
and more considerat
>
COuld see they needed a little
little harder on them becau ^ handicap> and j did not find parents
push. So I did not f
Not one
harassing me or attacking me.
or old friends in any ^way.*
le of instances, not
incident. On occasion, there^ fesso^s who had high aspirations
involving local people,
they hoped I could help their
-134-
kids.
btle suggestions saying "this kid has got to be
Just some subtle sugg
better than this.
JR:
DK:
How large were the classes.
w
I was teaching in a room in what is now
^ r V U ' r t h ^ I ever had a ciass larger than 25
students.
JR:
DK:
What did you do socially as a teach
i became very - t i
in s e ^
few
years of teaching, io lis
^ various times in the local
call super "yuppiedom to y.
t i v e f o r the Boy Scouts, I was
Lions Club, I was district represen
^
active in my church as a
y
o c c u r red in 1964, after I had
The greatest amount of^pride occurr^ ^
^
come over to the col g .
.
t ^ e slippery Rock Creek
sealed mines at the upp
loose a slue of acid which killed
watershed to burst forth a n d f i e ^ ° ° " a R *ckCreek. The creek had
virtually all living things in Slippery Rock ore
klUed by
y
been slowly dying for a n
f
h
c e n t u ry, but then limestone
mine acid Portion at Aeturnof the^cent ry,
q£
the e crlek e and 6 as the limestone was washed the effluent went into
the creek, which kept the acidity of the
1960's
neutralized
But the limestone plant shut down in the early lvou s
and then on top of that the big storm caused the bursting forth^of
these sealed mines, completely killing the creek. The mines had
been sealed during the depression days by the 1 BFA 1 w o r k ®" p .
f
Well, the fishermen and recreationists had been screaming
years for something to be done about the creek.
But generally tne
public doesn't listen to the fisherpeople and boaters and s ^ c h With this highly acidic condition, Elwood City and all of the otner
communities along the creek were going to be seriously affected.
Elwood City would use some of that water in some industrial
processes and it is so acid that it will eat their metal equipment.
So suddenly there is a great public outrage.
JR:
Because we're talking money and jobs now.
DK:
Yes indeed. We organized the Slippery Rock Creek Watershed
Association. I served as Secretary, state representative Don Fox
from Lawrence County was president. Murph Shellgren was the
prominent chemist who monitored creek conditions. He was the
technical advisor to the organization. We got action. The 1965
Strip Mine Act of Pennsylvania was not exclusively an o u t g r o w t h o
our activity, but we were the strongest lobbying group.
I think we
could point to what happened here as influencing a lot of people.
In 1960, Dr. Long asked me to take on some additional
responsibilities at the Lab school. I said that I never really
wanted to go into administration and had not thought much about it.
I had no certification and my degree was in History. He said he
knew all that, but that he would give me a title that did not
-135-
require a certificate. I was to be called an Administrative
Assistant or Assistant Superintendant. Because of the money, I
took the job. I worked for Dr. Long for one year and then he
resigned and moved to a job in Elwood City. The high school
principal, Neal Williams, then became the Superintendent and I
worked for him as his assistant for one year.
During the second year of that job, about mid-spring of 1963,
Bob Duncan and Charles Halt got in touch with me and said the
college was going to have another opening and they said I should
apply. I told them I was already rejected once and I didn't enjoy
brick walls. They said some things had changed, so I applied and
this time I was hired and began teaching at the college in
September of 1963.
I found out later what had happened. In a variety of ways
the local school district and the college had to cooperate. There
were overlapping functions in the community and so forth, and
occasionally the school board and the college administrators had to
meet. Well, several years after I had been hired, I heard that
there had been a meeting between the school board and President
Weisenfluh. One of the school board members, for some reason, was
apparently misled by me and made some very laudatory statements
about the job I had done as a teacher and administrator, and I
guess that had an effect on President Weisenfluh. So he let it be
known that he would consider me even though I was a graduate of
Slippery Rock.
JR:
Was all hiring kind of at the whim and caprice of the President?
DK:
Oh, absolutely.
JR:
You began as an Assistant Professor?
DK:
Yes, and I even took a slight cut in pay.
JR:
Do you remember your lab school salary?
DK:
Yes, I made $3400 in 1956. And here at Slippery Rock I remember
the beginning salary as an Assistant Professor in 1963 was $6500.
JR:
Then you went to graduate school?
DK-
Although there was nothing in writing, I had promised Dr
Duncan
the chlir of the History Department, that I would get my doctorate.
T crnt- mv tenure before I got the doctorate; in fact, I got my
tenure before I even started a firm program for the doctorate. So,
since I had given my word and having come from a family where you
since i n
g
j
j did gtart
the Unlversity of
Pittsburgh
rittSDurgn,
where I took a'couple of courses. I had some unhappy
wii
.
with erades. I was carrying
d
_n ^ manner
experiences there.nothing to^do with^
I felt was'being treated byPPpItt, and I thought of going
in which 1 felt
.
because I still had connections there
rp-f^or^Sred me and with whom I'd had good
S"ab^
experiences.
-136-
T TNNV a trip to Indiana
During Christmas
have offered me was an
University. The/b®st ^e?1400 for the year. I had a former friend
assistantship which paid 5
the name of Ben Bastj he
who I had gone to Slipp'ery
He had gotten his
Rock in »56.
pP
and I had graduated from
So while I was in
tate University.
PhD and was teac^n| u State primarily to see my old friend, and
Indiana, I went to Ba
there and asked a gentleman
I saw
S
went into the History Department there an
Dr> Bast had left a
there if Dr. Bast
at
P- ous y and wasdteachinge
year
well, as
Johns on Long Island, NY.
^
^
St.
_f ,.u Historv Department, and he was a
$3900Pfor
IK
half-tim^instruetorship for
the year and, with a spouse
and two children, that was a lot better than
Really it was
a practical decision to go to Ball State even though it certainly
was not a well known program.
JR:
Were you in residence there just a year?
DK:
Yes, just a year, and taught two classes a day. I completed one
language requirement, and had to delay the second. It was a busy
year. Again, I was very fortunate in that while I was away in
Muncie, one of the numerous administrative upheavals of Slippery
Rock was occurring. Strategically I had a feeling that if I was
going to move into the Associate Professor's ranks, maybe during
this period of uncertainty and transition would be an extremely
good time. We were between Presidents, we had acting Presidents.
So, I rushed home to Slippery Rock with all of my hours and my
application, and when I returned I came back as an Associate
Professor rather than an Assistant Professor.
JR:
So you were made an Associate in 1969?
DK:
Yes, as of the fall of 1969.
JR:
And when did the full Professorship come?
DK:
I believe it was 1976. I got myself involved in a very
tedious dissertation topic. It was an analysis of the pioneer
settlers of six western Pennyslvania counties; while it was not my
only source of information, my primary source was the census of
1860, which was the first very comprehensive census. I was working
in the manuscripts of the census and codifying 184,000 people in
six variables, and building a profile; who are these people, where
did they come from, what were there property holdings, there sex
and ages, occupations.
JR:
v°Hdid y°U
nobby?
DK:
Well, as I said earlier, growing up on a farm, very isolated with no
g6t int° the historY
°f Indians?
-137-
Was that kind of a
near neighbors and any neighbors we had, their youngsters were
expected to be working a great deal of the time, too. Even when I
had a neighbor, when I was free to roam, maybe he wasn't, because
we had responsibilities, and without other people, without tennis
courts and ballfields, my pleasure was all found in the woods with
hunting and fishing and trapping.
Thats the way I grew up.
I once really considered Forestry or Wildlife Management as a
career, but I only had the money to go to Slippery Rock. Once I
got into History I knew that was my thing. I read a lot of Earnest
Thompson Seaton when I was a kid, he was a naturalist, one of the
founders of the Boy Scouts, but he became alienated because he
thought the Boy Scouts had become to citified. He wrote a lot of
children's books--I enjoyed them very much--and he wrote a lot
about Indians. So the interest was always there, and nothing was
being done about it. I had a lot of frontier courses, though I did
not have any special courses on Indians, but I took a lot of
courses on the American frontier in graduate school.
So I had no special training, but I had the lifelong interest
and all of the frontier classes, and so I started the course as an
experimental course and of course the students latched onto it. It
was a popular thing and it has retained its popularity. I have
been encouraged to offer more than one section, but I think you
have a way of killing a course if you do it too much, so I've
preferred to keep it to one section a semester.
JR:
Well, you have been there for sometime. You must have some
overviews of the evolution of this place over the past 35-40 years
as a college. For instance, we have 370 faculty now, roughly, when
you matriculated here there must have been 50-60?
DK:
Maybe 50. Again, in those days we did not monitor things that
closely, but I would be surprised if it was much over 50. I have
some impressions, I don't know if they have any validity or not.
I'm not sure where to start, but certainly I would say that overall
what has happened is good. We can produce so much more. In the
past we could only produce teachers, although a great many people
came here and did two years in the normal school and went on to
become doctors, lawyers, engineers. That is documented
But now
we can offer them all of these possibilities, they don t have to go
elsewhere. I think that is very good.
I think we have sacrificed a lot, though as we've grown in
the personal interaction between faculty and students. I think it
was L my advantage, for instance, that every professor in the
History Department had me several times and their impressions,
whether trL or false, they had confidence that their impressions
were
into me and
frustrated as a Professor having a student come
one^their usual^three^Senior
^
wanting
recommendations,
a recommenciation
for
face. ^%stu^n" afd„ kLw that I had them, but I'm a little
them, and I will
remember you very well. I tell them what
e
reluctant because If
^£nd them since x keep
flliSIS:m^if they were attending class regularly and
-138-
, mavbe I can remember if they
what grade they got on tests an
y but other than that, I can't
recited in class to
gteat excen ,
^Dr ^
^
say very much. The student will reply.
yon know me as well as anyone else.
reg
any
JR:
DK:
.r
,.onr email
A lot of parents think of us
they expect me to know their child. I
6000 students here and it is quire y
without me meeting them.
and when I meet them,
them there are 5000.
tQ
four years
That is a very common ^"ience^ I ^^Lsfion "tut I have a
embarrassing moments, and again
X would
Grove City.
ssji:X';;"ITSSd.C,i51^t u n « . . T i .
never ^t down because I would stand and talk to him so people
would not mistake me for a potential client and create a line and
so forth. I was standing there and talking to him one day and
there was a gentleman in the chair, and finally, my frien d
the barber, said do you two know each other? And I said no the
gentleman in the chair said no, and Glenn said, Don Kelly this is
Frank Hoffman, he's in the Biology Department." And like a fool, I
shook his hand and said, "Welcome to Slippery Rock." He said Thank
you, I've been here for five years." So it is not only students we
don't get acquainted with, its the faculty, too, sometimes.
Anyway, I think our multi-degree capacity now is a real good
thing. I have to look back with real nostalgia, 50 or less, that I
had were very good, with very few exceptions, and maybe I'm saying
that now since I am in the role of a professor and I don't hear
anything special coming out of my mouth. Sometimes I think, gee,
those guys were better than I am, and better than a lot of my
colleagues today, even though we were a small school with not much
of a reputation. I think I am a good enough judge to say there
were some really great teachers.
JR:
Do you think it has anything to do with us being more high profile
now? When you are a smaller institution and everyone is having a
look at you, maybe you've got to perform better. Maybe all of that
community service stuff created a tightness that was a positive
force.
DK:
There was a certain dignity about these people, too, that we don't
have today.
JR:
I remember my elementary school teachers in great detail, and they
were so very, very good, in my opinion, and I've been in this
education business for 35 years. Can you imagine the University of
Minnesota with 40,000 students. Ball State must have been fair
sized?
DK:
About 15,000 students when I was there.
Indiana U is up around 40,000 now.
JR:
Lets talk about History majors for a minute. You've been in the
History Department since 1963, and the majors in the social
-139-
Not large by any means.
sciences, economics, History, Political Science--has that declined
over a period of time or stayed steady.
DK:
It declined seriously from about 1970 to maybe 1983 or so. For a
period of 12-15 years there was a very serious decline. The
education majors in the Social Sciences declined because there were
no jobs in the secondary schools. You had to be very mobile and
willing to move to find a job. Other than education, History
majors sometimes go to law school, or into theology. History
majors do a variety of things. But to be a historian unless you
want to go on to teach in higher education and get your advanced
degrees, it is sort of a dead end street. You might become an
archivist or something like that, but there aren't many
opportunities, so we had a very serious decline. But those that we
had were very committed to their craft, and some had some very good
people, though there numbers were few. Our department staff
declined from 15 in 1970 to eight a couple of years ago. piat was
because of declining enrollments in History. That is turning
around, especially in General Education, History has somehow or
another been reborn in the eyes of some students. That makes me
happy, and we are experiencing some growth in our majors, but we
have a tremendous pressure for our survey classes. We are now back
up to about 11 people in the department, although one of them is
still a temporary.
JR:
Has the Carnegie Commission had an impact on the number of History
majors or the preparation of History teachers for secondary
education?
DK-
Certainly I think the Carnegie report had a lot of impact on People
who read it, but the average high school student was not affected
much
I'm not sure what has done it. It has regained
respectability. You know, in the 60's the past was not even to be
considered and this went on into the 70's, forget the past, the
•u
nr> value
it can only confuse our future if we
think about it
This was the attitude. Somehow or other, now they
are learning
like old Ezra Pound, that those that don't learn
History^are doomed to repeat it, and so forth and so on. I think
we are learning some of that again.
JR:
Do you have other impressions, student body, faculty, physical
facilities?
DK:
imnressions about the student body, and I don't
I have some sjr°ng i p
misinterpreted, because I
mean to be unkind and I hope it wo
^^ have fewer truiy
think there are reJ®on®ercentage wise. I've tried to think about
uutstandrng students
perc ^
availabiUty of aid.
Good
that and I think it "
whQ came here_ thelr
secondary scho°i=^ents they're not upptr middle class, if
parents are ""king parents,^ y^
^
anything they are
g
really prestigious schools, so
couldn't
afford
to
send
them^to tihe:
J
P ^ S^a ^
^^rtsfandi^udLts can find the wherewithal to go to
-140-
Qf
Harvard or Yale, Princeton, wherever and therefore I don't see many
of that top 5%.
. t.
„nrV habits who are also talented
Those people with gre
recruiting, is our
youngsters
Are we missing the boat i^sQmethin| we flre
alumni sending us the wrong peopie,
doing?
I don't know what^re^ot
school with one exception. I find myself often getting kids from
Long Island or Connecticut, not that we have a lot but we have
some and I often ask them what attracted them to Slippery Rock?
Thev are often times Physical Education majors and have had in high
school a Physical Education teacher who is a Slippery Rock
graduate who promoted Slippery Rock to them
But it most often
happens with Physical Education majors. As I said this is not a
scientific study, and I don't know if it will hold water, but that
is my personal experience.
When we promote people here, up through the professorial
ranks, we make a big deal of the fact that we are not a publish or
perish institution, and that the primary emphasis is on teaching
skills and ability. Is there a chance that this has lessened our
scholarly output in some fashion?
I think it has, but again, I'm going to be very frank, because in my
experience, and I've served on promotion committees two different
times, I've served on tenure committees. While we are told this by
many people, my experience has been, in recent years, without some
type of publications you are not going to get promoted. Now how I
feel about this, this is very personal, first of all, I don't like
the hypocrisy of saying one thing and promoting on the merit of
another. As you say, we'll emphasize good teaching, but when it
comes to the promotion process we'll say, well you're not excellent
in scholarly growth so therefore you can not be promoted because
you did not publish. There is a hypocrisy there, it seems to me.
If they want both, then I think we have to give people some time to
research and publish. Or quit using it as a weapon. That is very
personal, its heresy probably.
What about attracting faculty to Slippery Rock University. We hear
a lot about the fact that the "hotshots" don't want to come here,
it is very hard to attract good people. I've never been a fan of
a ,
ve always thought that they were competitive in terms of
salary and in terms of the working environment. People don't turn
wives^air31136 ^ are
nbackwoods-w
I think it is kind of an old
Lbarra^P^c^0?111?16116 aSreement with you. I know one of the
embarrassment W * ?^rienced. not an excruciating
with mv Associat-p v* ? 1
°ne' Was w^en 1 came back there in 1968
fesaorshi
making more monpv ^°
P. " I've already mentioned. I was
y
an the man who guided my dissertation at Ball
-141-
State University. My wife has been attending seminary in
Pittsburgh, and I've become acquainted with a lot of the staff at
the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. A very scholarly group, a
much published group, and they do give them light schedules for the
purpose of research and publication. But salary wise, I rather
pity them.
JR:
I have had that experience with Grove City College when they find
out not just the salary, but when they see what the fringe benefit
package is, they get a little green, and that is understandable.
In the early 70's when we went with APSCUF and unionized throughout
the state college system, one of the things that happened in that
transition was the "all college" committees. In retrospect, do you
have a feeling about how positive that force has been in terms of
fairness across the board for sabbaticals and promotions and all
that sort of thing?
DK:
Are you prepared for a little heresy? First of all, I certainly was
a strong supporter of APSCUF, I belonged from the beginning, I
belonged before we had a collective bargaining agreement even. I
have belonged to a number of labor unions in my life, as low as the
hod carriers. I believe in organization and I was looking forward
to the "self-governance" the collective bargaining agreement might
bring, and I would not want to throw it out.
But my experiences on committees have caused me to become a
little cynical about committing myself or anyone else to the
judgements of one's peers. I say that because sitting on
committees I found that there are all sorts of hidden agendas that
I'm not astute enough to read or recognize. Let's say it would be
a promotion, and you would sit there and you would listen to the
discussion on an individual, and ultimately all those who are up
for promotion, and you would tally in your mind how the vote will
ultimately turn out on the basis of what you have heard. Then you
submit it to a secret ballot, and it makes no sense, on the basis
of what is said it makes no sense. I don't know how to interpret
that except to say that there are hidden agendas, there are maybe
personal feuds, jealousies that I am unaware of that affect
committees of our peers. With the protection of the secret ballot,
those things can happen. That is the one regrettable thing I have
about the collective bargaining agreement is all of our committees.
I have thought a lot about that one, this isn't shooting from the
hip.
JR:
You have seen the town of Slippery Rock for a long time and the
relationship between the town and the University. Has that been a
thing that has gotten better and better, do you think? Is this a
good college town, or is that a dumb question?
DK*
No, that's not a dumb question, but it is certainly a^
difficult question. Again, this is one person s opinion only,
because I have been on both sides of the fence. All of my 1 e
I've been a local person and I certainly see both angles, and from
the stand point of a college student I think Slippery Rock could
very well be a boring little town to be in, particularly
-142-
student is from an urban area. On the other hand, I do believe
that local people have a certain right to peace and quiet, and I
can understand their irritability when their tranquility is
disrupted at two o'clock in the morning by a noisy party and that
sort of thing. I think probably there has been less serious
trouble than there is potential for trouble.
JR:
This town is fairly small to house a college this size, the students
outnumber the townspeople three to one. Maybe that imbalance
strains the situation.
DK:
A few townspeople, however, do recognize that this town might nnf
forth W i ? ^ £ h l S c o l l e & a n d t h e i n c °ne that it generates and so
rortn. I think many of them are somewhat philosophical about
putting up with what they feel and as some of the less desirabl
e
JR:
Have you ever lived in town?
DK:
here r and V I d reaUy™; r ate d L^stud'tV" l n c i d e n t t h a t occurred
was in the early 70'a sort of at th
v, " . 3 f e " y e a r s a 8°- This
h e h e i g h t of the ecology
movement
T \> a *
beyond where the maintenance'"building ? "
°f C3mpus'
n°W' n f a r 3 l o n g p a t h t h a t
non-bused high school students used t
C° t h e 8 c h ° o 1 ' a p a t h
off of High Street. Just beyond collei
p
r
o
p ? r t y- o n private
property, there were beer cans knee deen
that the college kids had b e e n * n e e dee P» w e l l maybe ankle deep
f-ternities a^d sororities^andtchLST t h " e ' S e V e r a l «* * •
publicity lately in the Rocket the r rf ®2 n g e t t i n g a lot of
a"d 311 the local
Papers, for cleaning up the highways and^h 6
Rock, getting a lot of PR. j fort o f J a PP r o a ches to Slippery
hypocrisy of posing for all of th*c
f t t a c k ed them for the
6
p
i ? t u r e s when they had totally
befouled this property where nohnd
J
"7"
DK:
*" "i>" t.».
I don't know.
A lot
some place to drink and ? can'tT'
WlU
b.„„
t e l 1 y °"
th. torn
having
JR:
DK:
p witn our students?
can
---
have a more
activities^throughout^the^ear^fon^our^maj*^^' ^^"hav^three
jors or those considering
-143-
a History major. One is the picnic in the fall in which we have
soft drinks and beer and food and so forth, we cater it, and they
get to see us as human beings and we play volleyball and horseshoes
and such. Your suggestion might well be a good experience if more
of that was done. I received a notice from current Vice-President
Foust about inviting freshmen to your home, but now I have a
handicap since I live 35 miles away now so that is just impractical
for me to take students to my home. That is kind of unfortunate
and we do have a lot of commuting faculty, too. A lot of them live
in New Castle, or Butler, and some even live in Pittsburgh. It
makes that sort of interaction difficult.
-144-
Slippery Rock University Centennial Oral History Project
Alumnus: Sally Lennox
Interviewer: Donald Kelly
DK:
Sally, how did you come to choose to Slippery Rock University as
your school of higher education?
SL:
Like many students in western PA. my family was not college
educated. Resources financially were not great. So I had my
choice only of state colleges. Since I did want to teach it was
logical that I choose a state college anyway to get a good basic
education and to become a public school teacher. I chose Slippery
Rock University probably because I had some excellent teachers
probably the best math teacher I had was a Slippery Rock Universitv
graduate. I thought so much of him.
DK:
Could you name that person?
SL:
one poor
DK''
lA-Z* °f ^
™
that exPerience
too.
SL:
studie^minor'was'very'easy'to
My main interest was in English
DK:
g°°d al®eb" Ceacb"
*»'
I had an excellent aleebra
111iw
UP'
A SOcial
ls wh^ ic was
there.
Did you teach English upon graduating.
SL:
mother who^ad children' anc^s tayedhome6 °ld
DK:
SL:
fashioned early
sixties
Where did you get this husband with whom you had children and stayed
Nothing would do of course hut- = ci •
"^started to date when we were fresELTher^ **££*££*in
DK:
^
SL:
^
then. Don't
°ther social activities?
Well you have to understand that t-h*
•
than now
We had more rules than werf^p16® W6re Very different
i0t of
N°W "6 l0°k back
Northman" 5* r6ally didn'b hurt us
the women
rtn Hall. It was unheard of in
lived in
W3S for»idden for women
to live elsewhere. We were in our do™
night unless we had earned privileges^, T* " eiSht-thirty at
865 t0 stay out until ten-thirty.
-145-
There was very little social activity simply because there was very
little in Slippery Rock and hardly anyone was wealthy enough to own
a car. So I don't think I missed a thing. It was a good time with
the women in North Hall, the men in South Hall. We had fun, we had
good times, but it was, I'm not going to say mindless good times it
was just gentle good times.
Who was the Dean of Women during your stay here?
The Dean of Women was Miss Lois Harner. Today the students think of
her as a building and we think of her as a very real person. When I
came back to Slippery Rock, when my husband accepted a job here
about fifteen years ago, she greeted me by name, asked about my
room-mates, remembered everything about me. Unfortunately she
remembers everything bad that any of us ever did. But I've always
had a feeling that although she told us how serious it was, she
didn't pay much attention to it.
She was a remarkable woman.
She still is a remarkable woman.
She was my ninth grade English teacher and also one of my
instructors here in college. It was my good fortune, just two
years ago, to see her at a high school reunion. She must be in her
eighties. She is just as sharp and her memory as clear as you
describe it fifteen years ago.
She was back for a weekend just two weekends ago, looking great.
A lot of fond memories and as you say she is much more than a
building. That is for certain. You mentioned your husband, could
you name him?
I think I could name him. Uh, Slippery Rock University had a very
tough problem through the years. We have never had enough men to
go around. In the fifties and the sixties it wasn't quite as
serious as it was during the war years. One of the yearbooks
showed three senior men, ten men on campus. There were never very
many men on campus. When I was here there were five women to a
man. So you had to choose your man early and work hard at getting
him.
I'm assuming that is what you did.
I certainly did.
What was Bill's major?
Bill was a physical education major. At the time, over half of us
were physical education majors, especially the men.
I assume as a physical education major he was involved in athletics.
What were his activities?
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SL:
1, ^o-rcnt!
And he played a little bit of soccer. But
He was a trac p
*
Domisley was his coach, Jim Egli was
son>
mostly he was a t
P
campell Snowburger was his coach. A lot
" ^ b o d y remembers from Slippery Rock
University.
DK:
After your and Bill's graduation, where did you go?
first jobs?
SL:
My first job was at a school that is no more, through no
fault of mine, at Darlington. Darlington, Pennsylvania lost their
High School when they joined in to a jointure.
DK:
That is in northern Beaver county isn't it?
SL:
It was in the Black Hawk school district now, yes. Bill
went to Riverside, which was a brand new school just opening up.
After that as I said before, I left, we had two children. He
continued to teach at Riverside for a long time then he went to
Butler. Then he came on to Slippery Rock University as track
coach.
DK:
In what year did you return to Slippery Rock University?
SL:
For some reason I always draw a blank with that. He has been on the
faculty here for over fifteen years but we didn't move for a few
years.
DK:
Did you continue during his early years being the wife and mother
rather than being professionally employed anywhere?
SL:
Yes.
DK
Do you sometimes wish for it again?
SL:
Well I don't have any kids left. So I don't know what I would do if
I were home now. My kids are in Florida.
DK:
SL:
Where were your
It's an old idea but it's a good one.
nniLr h ir L e t l ? 0 X u S a r f V e r y m u c h l n v °l v e d with Slippery Rock
University, both mother and father. What about the children?
1983° n Mv H
S 1 i? P e r ? R °Ck University
graduate.
He graduated in
DK:
h
"
-
SL:
a^tan*
B e S i n n i n g with, since he was four
years old his^irft^ir
b o o k - he has been
interested ^
could go on a round^he world tri^v?^^ 1 0 1 1 1 ° k a y e d t h 3 t h 6
P with his aunt who is not
healthy. Thev DarfpH m
y p a r t e d Com P an y and he continued on his way and for
-147-
six months he traveled around the world by himself. He will never
recover. He is planning right now to head out again in August and
go around the world again. This time to hit those places that he
said he missed. He might go back to see the pyramids again. He has
always been fascinated by the pyramids and after he took Clarie
Settlemire's class he was really fascinated by the pyramids. He
will spend a month in Africa and go on to India. It scares me to
death.
DK:
I'm sure.
SL:
But he has so many good history teachers through the years.
DK:
It sounds like he is an experienced traveler.
SL:
But with good history teachers, they put these places in
front of you and you think "I have to see this, I have to
experience this..." and that is what he is going to do.
DK:
Curiosity is the basis of education and knowledge. Without
curiosity not much happens. I can appreciate Billy's viewpoint
very much. Of course today you are Alumni Director, is that the
proper title?
SL:
Director of Alumni Affairs.
DK:
Director of Alumni Affairs, when did you become involved
with the Alumni Association and eventually evolve into this head
position?
SL:
Mostly by default I became, Fred Williamson was the
director, had received my name from somewhere and called and asked
if I knew how to do books. I didn't know a debit from a credit and
I said "sure I know how to do that..." I experimented, faked,
figured it out, talked to people, and took the job as the
bookkeeper. Then when Fred left, we were left without a director.
I had started to help him, I had done some of the job, and I more
or less just fell into it. What I lacked in experience and
specific knowledge, I think I made up with enthusiasism and a great
love for Slippery Rock University.
DK:
And how many years have you been in this position.
SL:
Almost five.
DK:
Almost five years. Prior to the five years as the Director of the
Alumni Association, how long were you working with the Association?
SL:
Just about a year.
DK:
I would say that is pretty rapid advancement, after a year you
become director. That is pretty good.
SL:
That was being in the right place at the right time.
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DK'
That haptens to a lot of us. Rather than degrading ourselves we
should take credit for ability instead of making these excuses.
How many alumni are there at Slippery Rock University, living
alumni t h a t you know of and have records t o r .
SL:
We have 28,000 living "alums". We are in contact with about 26,000
I tell them if you don't hear from us every four months, we have
lost you. It is your responsibility to let us know. A very small
percentage do let us know, they just figure that we will find them
and usually we do.
DK:
That was my next question; How committed are they to following
these instructions of keeping you informed.
SL:
DK:
Our new alums are very good, our eighties people have been very
excellent. I think it is because when they leave I began to bribe
my way into as many classes as I can get into and tell them what I
think their responsibilities are. If it is not a definite
responsibility at least I point out to them that they are a member
of a group and you don't just push that off and say well I'm out of
here with my diploma. I tell them what the alumni is about, what
it does, how important it is to have a strong alumni, how their
degree is only as good as the next degree that walks out of here,
you know we are all responsible for each other, or we are going to
be looked at in that manner. It is not fair but that is simply the
way it is. So it is up to them to keep good students coming, give
Slippery Rock University a little good press, and of course as I
always say, pay your dues; you have to put that in. They are
better than our fifties and sixties people. They are not good
alums. Thirties people are wonderful. They come from California
to spend the weekend with us, alumni weekend. Some couples drive
from Florida every year for alumni weekend. Our fifties and
sixties people we just can't get moving.
Let me ask you this since I am a fifties person, as are you; might
it be, as you say the thirties are good and the twenties are good
7 a £! ? o w / i f t y a n d sixty years removed from the
1
1
Mi^ht rw '
^ ^ e e i l n g S ° f l o y a l t y a n d nostalgia are stronger
Might that occur with the fifties and sixties people in the
S 3 5 t h e y g e t f u r t h e r removed might
they
fondr t yon
" h Utheir
J! d r e d educational
they look
look more
more fondly
past?
SL:
school here I really°loved SU P r ° b l ® m s w a s t h a t w h e * I was in .
went home for vacation we ius^didn^t
JJ n i v e rsity, almost never
Came and stayed t i U
Thanksgiving, we staved till r-hw ?
liked the Place« and *
were having a good time here
morning classes had something to do'witlTthat
If"™* S a t U r d a y
class until one-o-clock Saturday you did nor
I Y ? U ""J
g° to° f a r '
But our
seventies and eighties neonlp «=LZJ llSP
Ve
t
h
3
t
t
h
e
o
r
thinking it is because no one told them N°
y- 1 ^
t^emalumni association this i<; w v, a tNo one said, this is an
h°W
WlU ke6P
you informed, this'is what we expect WW*
P t back from you. We expect you
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to pay your dues, we expect you to let us know when you move. We
want to hear from you. It was too impersonal which is no one's
fault. The college just simply did not have an employee. They had
volunteers. They had the infamous Maree McKay. They had Maggie
Meise. They had Carl Laughner. But they didn't give it an
importance as it had at a smaller college. I think that was the
difference. Most people get out of the habit of giving, or caring,
or returning. It is hard to get them in. That is why we really
try to push homecoming. If you have been to homecoming lately you
know how many thousands of young people are there. We want them
back.
DK:
I wondered and certainly I don't know, I am just throwing this out
as a possibility. Might there be some relationship between the
older days when we all got out and became teachers at very modest
salaries, and now in this current multi-purpose institution in
which we are sending people out into all kinds of fields, many of
them much better paying than education. Are they more able, more
affluent to play an active role in things and pay their dues, etc.
than perhaps the people who are from an earlier era; just a
question.
SL:
I don't think so. When dues were five dollars twenty-five years ago
there probably was not someone who couldn't afford fifty cents a
month. It was a matter of saying . . . no . . . well maybe not
even consciously saying, just simply not doing it. Now I tell
them, what can you get for fifteen dollars. You can get a half of
a pizza and something to drink. You could go to Rachel's by
yourself. Or you can pay me fifteen dollars. I think we use that
not as a reason Don, but as an excuse. You and I know that
teachers just about everywhere are making a very nice living. It
is very hard for me not to answer when someone from N. Allegheny or
someone from the Pittsburgh school district says, "How can you
expect me to donate? We are only teachers." I know what they are
making and you know what they are making. I think they have hidden
behind that and I don't think it is valid.
DK:
I think that is a very pertinent observation on your part. I have
heard the excuse that is why I posed the question as I did.
SL:
Oh sure, you have heard the excuse.
hundreds on the telephone.
DK:
What are, other than just dues, fund raising activities of the
Alumni Association?
SL:
Well, starting about five years ago when the foundation was formed
to become stronger, I don't have other fund raising. Nothing else
comes out of this office. There were two funds that belonged to
the alumni traditionally and that's the N. Kerr Thompson fund,
donated to by what Mrs. Thompson calls the young lads. The young
lads graduated in 1939, however. They still donate to Coach's
fund. They feel a great loyalty to him. A lot of people still
donate nothing big and we don't even send them the regular
-150-
We hear it by the
solicitation to the Maree McKay fund.
Because Maree is responsible
for a lot of people finishing, graduating, getting a job, sticking
it out. She was a one person dynamo. She ran the place.
DK:
Do you mean "were forced to take her advice" and then went on to
graduation?
SL:
Yes. I know one man who was ready to graduate and had to take one
summer school course. He needed one credit. So he looked down the
list and thought, "Hmm... camp craft sound like a good course to
me." She changed it. Now can you imagine doing that to a student
today. She changed it to World Geography. He went to her and he
said, "I don't want to take that." She said, "Young man if you
want to graduate you will take it." And by-golly he did take it.
A lot of people have a great loyalty to her.
DK:
Well I know that being involved with this institution in
some level or another from the period of the WW II vets
through the Korean vets there was no combat veteran that she
couldn't terrorize.
SL:
She was one powerful woman here. But we have a scholarship in her
name. It is something the Alumni Association is very proud of.
For a long time it was an only academic scholarship on campus. We
will award this year eleven $500.00 scholarships toward senior
tuition.
DK.
I believe that she was a Slippery Rock University alumni also wasn't
she.
SL:
No she wasn't. She came here as a registrar. It runs
in my mind she was Bethany. Small, private but she loved Slippery
r
J
Rock University.
DK:
There is no question about that.
SL:
£tSh,LeirClallZ l0VCu the Slippery Rock University students.
Once she started here she was an active member on the Alumni
B^r^ost :?'all^rre"ist«retary-
^1<>tS °f J°bS
DK
A person who's bark was considerably worse than her bite.
SL
Yes.
DK
SL:
h,r*''
^rfthSe'anvh^turfn?^'1016^ t0 brin* ffi0st ^into line.
Alumni Association?
^°r alteratlons to the activities of the
^ criticism of the Alumni Assoriatinn v>or. v.
*
tJlat we don,t have
enough programming. But we are of on^
money so that is not a reason but so
everybody is limited by
take"
by other departments of the college?h«nso!UnCt£°n?
alumni. For instance there is no
schools use as
no reason or no way we could have a
-151-
vacation college for just alumni. We have a vacation college. Our
travel program is limited because we have a good travel program at
Slippery Rock University. So probably our thrust is to keep alumni
all over the country informed. This becomes a bigger and bigger
job because alumni used to live in Western Pa. You graduated from
here, you went back to your hometown, and you stayed in the general
area. You could read about things in the paper. You could visit
Slippery Rock University. Now we have people who never, never come
back. We try to visit them to let them know what is going on. The
president takes a trip every year, a couple trips, to keep them
informed, to keep them interested, to show them how we are growing
academically. We send them a newspaper four times. We send them
additional information whenever the budget allows. We are trying
to keep them as a member of the community because we think it is
important. As I told you before, we think it is important so that
when they do something it shows in their ressume that they started
at Slippery Rock University. This is where they got their roots.
Most of them are bachelor degree students. This is where they got
there roots. This is where they learned what kind of people they
were going to be. We would like to see them in the press release.
A lot of them are in public education. They are superintendents of
schools, the guidance counselors. We think that our educational
programs are strong enough so that they should be sending us their
good students, not the student who did not get in somewhere else.
This in the early seventies was too often the case. We would like
to see and hear good press. Not just what a good time they had
here, but how they learned something of value. Sometimes it makes
us very angry when we hear somebody in a good job who almost lets
it be known that they got the job in spite of, not because of their
good Slippery Rock University education. This is a tough one.
I have had any number of people tell me though that even in areas
where perhaps the Slippery Rock University reputation is not well
established, seeing that name on credentials often will get you at
least to the interview stage. Have you heard that?
Yes. The name works for us and against us. The magic of the name
is, what a funny place, and just laugh at the name. It does get
your foot in the door. We hope it gets a loyalty. We know it did
for two young people: Billy Bejorstead who is an elementary
teacher, and his wife. They got jobs in San Diego because the
superintendent of schools is a Slippery Rock University person. He
made no bones about it. He said, "I saw Slippery Rock University
and I thought, this can't be all bad." They got the jobs they went
after.
Do you know name of this superintendent?
No I don't. But the problem with it is that some people
discount us. It becomes just a joke, just a football school. It
does work two ways. But you can sell your Slippery Rock University
shirt anywhere in the world and make a profit.
I think we are in transition.
I think we are leaning more to the
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academic reputation than just the funny name that we used to.
really think we are moving away from that.
I
SL:
I think all of us are working toward that.
DK:
Well I hear it from alumni, that they are being respected.
SL:
You can't discount our alumni. We have people all over in very
responsible positions. We have college presidents. People who are
running big companies; the president of Thrift Drug is a Slippery
Rock University graduate, a physical education major. Lots of
Medical Doctors. Such a cross stream of people who are making it.
They can't discount us any longer, saying oh we are just a teacher,
which always angered me because the teacher is responsible for
everybody, teachers school.
DK:
You mentioned that you have a, what is the proper name for branch
associations?
SL:
We call them chapters.
D K :
. . . chapters throughout the country. What are some of the major
chapters we have scattered across the United States?
SL:
The further away you are from home, the more home looks good to you
We have five groups we meet with in Florida. One of them is
thirteen years old. We have a group for everybody. We have older
people. We have a mixed group and we have very young people. So
JJe
flv® there and we have four groups that we met in
California for the first time ever this past year. We met a group
fT°m the class of 1931 caa>e in and he was so
®3? ieg°u
surprised
He said, I just knew that I would be the only one here
and the oldest here." He was neither. Neither the oldest nor the
PooL°neH
T iUf as1haPPy as he could be. His name is Ed
Pocka. He was back for alumni weekend about two or three years
ago. Playing tennis against our varsity tennis players
He do go
VirginiaSBeach in^d "e baVe
there
education.
aatronS
concentration in Norfolk and
They are a very young population
rLrMfn^TLw^r8 °r SO uthat 1 have been here and th
youngsters from Long Island" An^nmber'of times6! h numbe^ of
1 have s"d' bow
did you choose Slippery Rock UniveSrttv L
teacher from Slippery Rock Universlt^'l ™VT" "'J had 3
chapter, however in Long Island might Jw »°ndering there is no
llty?
AS
I say because I seem to have heak Jhat flot thM
attracted to Slippery Rock University because thev had*
3
school teacher from Slippery Rock University.
SL:
We've never gone into New York. But t-Me
working on a meeting that they would like to havp
7^ i glJ^S
3
after homecoming so we could take a video I
Z
clttle bit
they are missing, from northern New Jersey, Shic^is r?ght across"
-153-
the river so we hope to pick up some of those people at that one.
DK:
Well I think we've had a good interview and you've been very, very
informative and perhaps when these tapes are reviewed, things that
you have told me will spark greater alumni involvement in the
future. Those few people from our own era the 50's and 60's that
have been perhaps a little remiss in their loyalty, maybe we can
get some activity. Thank you very much Sally.
SL:
Oh you're welcome.
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