The NOTE

Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection at East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania • Fall / Winter 2016

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In This Issue...
The NOTE

contains some content that may be considered offensive.
Authors’ past recollections reflect attitudes of the times and remain uncensored.

3 A Note from the Collection Coordinator
Dr. Matt Vashlishan

The NOTE
Vol. 26 - No. 1 - Issue 65
Fall / Winter 2016

The NOTE is published twice a year

4 From the Bridge
Su Terry
6 Interview with Larry Fink
Dr. Matt Vashlishan

by the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection,
East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania,
as part of its educational outreach program.

Editor:

16 38th COTA Jazz Festival 2015

Matt Vashlishan, D.M.A.

20 Jerry Dodgion Interview Part 2
Jay Rattman

Charles de Bourbon at BGAstudios.com
ESU Office of University Relations
________________________________

Lauren Chamberlain

27 Devil May Care — for Bob Dorough
Michael Stephans
28 Bill Holman — A Master of Jazz Arranging and Composing
Bill Dobbins
31 Dave Liebman Interview Part 2
Bill Kirchner

From the Collection . . .
Cover Photo (front): Jackie McLean at the
Village Vanguard, NYC. Photo by Larry Fink.

Design/Layout:

Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection
Kemp Library
East Stroudsburg University
200 Prospect St.
East Stroudsburg, PA 18301-2999

alcohncollection@esu.edu
(570) 422-3828
www.esu.edu/alcohncollection
East Stroudsburg University President
Marcia G. Welsh, Ph.D.

The mission of the Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection
is to stimulate, enrich, and support research, teaching,
learning, and appreciation of all forms of jazz.

The ACMJC is a distinctive archive built upon a unique
and symbiotic relationship between the
Pocono Mountains jazz community
and East Stroudsburg University.

With the support of a world-wide network of jazz advocates, the ACMJC seeks to promote the local and global
history of jazz by making its resources available and useful to students, researchers,
educators, musicians, historians, journalists and jazz
enthusiasts of all kinds, and to preserve its holdings for
future generations.

Center Spread: The Dixie Gents at
the 2015 COTA Festival. Photo by
Bob Weidner.

Cover Photo (back): Al Cohn, from
the ACMJC photo archives.

2

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

© 2016 Al Cohn Memorial Jazz Collection /
East ________________________________
Stroudsburg University

East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania is committed to
equal opportunity for its students, employees and applicants.
The university is committed to providing equal educational and
employment rights to all persons without regard to race, color,
sex, religion, national origin, age, disability, sexual orientation,
gender identity or veteran’s status. Each member of the university
community has a right to study and work in an environment
free from any form of racial, ethnic, and sexual discrimination
including sexual harassment, sexual violence and sexual assault.
(Further information, including contact information, can be found
on the university’s website at: http://www4.esu.edu/titleix/.) In
accordance with federal and state laws, the university will not
tolerate discrimination.
This policy is placed in this document in accordance with state
and federal laws including Titles VI and VII of the Civil Rights Act
of 1964, Title IX of the Educational Amendments of 1972, Sections 503 and 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, and the Civil Rights Act of 1991
as well as all applicable federal and state executive orders.

A Note from the Collection Coordinator

Fran Kaufman

Photo courtesy Louise Sims

various programming I am trying to put together to support it.
Zoot Fest was a great afternoon and the music was exceptional. Bill Dobbins joined us
this year for a very informative
and entertaining presentation on
Al and Zoot’s playing as well as
to perform on piano. As if one
amazing pianist wasn’t enough,
Don Friedman attended and
performed, thus participating
in his very first Zoot Fest. The
panel discussion was entertaining and informative as always,
the performances were absolutely first rate, and the food was
extraordinary!
Zoot wearing a Halloween mask at Lake Buena
Over the past few years
By Dr. Matt Vashlishan
Vista around 1978.
working with the Al Cohn
find myself writing this installment Memorial Jazz Collection I have had
jazz events) an underlying sense
after cleaning up from another
of mourning due to the loss of yet
the opportunity to meet and develop
wonderful Zoot Fest. Everyone
another cornerstone of music in the
relationships with several people,
had a great time, and it was nice to
Poconos and around the world, Phil
one of which is a wonderful woman
see some familiar faces and of course
Woods. The next issue of The Note will
who was married to Zoot: Louise
some new faces too. I would like to
be dedicated entirely to Phil, and it
Sims. We were discussing some of
thank all the staff and departments
will without a doubt be something
her favorite memories of Zoot durinvolved at ESU for pulling off anvery special to me and hopefully to
ing the planning stages of the recent
other great event, and especially ESU
all of you as well. Phil’s discography
Zoot Fest, and both Zoot and Al
President Marcia G. Welsh, Ph.D. for
speaks for itself, but he was (as well
would have been 90 years old at the
her continued support of the Al Cohn time of this writing in 2015. She sent as an unbelievable musician and comMemorial Jazz Collection and the
poser) a very dear friend and mentor
me a few photos that
of mine and will be deeply missed by
show Zoot in a differeveryone in the Pocono jazz commuent light away from the
nity as well as worldwide.
horn and having a little
Those of you who pay close atbit of fun. These photos
tention
to the layout of the magazine
didn’t make it into the
might be missing the bottom banner
Zoot Fest program, so
on the front cover. The cover photo
I thought it would be
used for this issue is from the brilfun to show them here.
liant photographer Larry Fink and I
The first is from Halgave up the preview banner to include
loween around 1978 at
his photo in the proper dimensions
Lake Buena Vista when
because it’s worth it! It is my absolute
he decided to jump up
on stage to play wearing pleasure to showcase his work and a
bit of his life story in this installment.
a mask! The second is a
Larry is a great person and it was a
shot of Zoot with what
pleasure working with him and his
Louise called his “pride
staff.
and joy,” his first beefI would also like to thank Su
steak tomato. ApparTerry, Erica Golaszewski, Lauren
ently he was quite fond
Chamberlain, and Jay Rattman for all
of gardening.
While not spoken about of their help with this issue and others down the road. As always, enjoy!
openly, there was (as
there
tends
to
be
these
Zoot and his pride and joy… his first beefsteak tomato!
days with most annual
Photo courtesy Louise Sims

I

U

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

3

James Richard

Su Terry
From The Bridge

by Su Terry
“When you’re 15 years old, art is very dangerous.
That’s what art is supposed to be. It’s supposed to be a
gigantic edifice that you’re afraid to enter. That was the
way I felt. Still feel that way to a certain extent.”
–Phil Woods, 2009

I

t won’t be easy to fill in the gap left by Phil in the
Gap. Phil wrote his column for 26 years. I’m sure you
noticed he was no slouch as a writer. And the content!
But I’m gonna chomp down like a pit bull, by gum.
(Truth be known, taking over Phil’s column in The
Note is my birthright. Birthright, you say?
Why, yes. Phil was born in Springfield, Massachusetts,
and SO WAS I.)
Before embarking on today’s narrative journey, let’s
clear the literary palette by stating the obvious: all writers have an agenda. Whether we express it with comedy,
tragedy, or something in between, we want the reader to
chew on our words. (One hundred times isn’t necessary.
Fifty will do fine–if you masticate too much, you’ll go
blind.) My agenda is somewhat varied, and in the interest
of clarity let me tick my top topics, so readers know what
they will find henceforth in From The Bridge columns:
• Give insight into the music, as well as into the
minds of musicians.
• Honor my predecessors, whose shoulders I stand
upon.
• Have fun composing with words.
• Figure out what I really think, by writing it down.
Johnny Coles once told me, “If you want to make
people cry with your music, first you gotta make your own
self cry.” The last thing Phil said to me, from his hospital
bed, was “Keep ‘em laughing.” Therefore, I promise to
not write anything humorous unless it makes my own self
crack up. Then again, as Jon Hendricks is fond of saying,
“I’m only serious.”
I’m pleased to introduce my collaborator, illustrator
Jonathan Glass. I met him while he was sketching at the
bar of the Deer Head Inn. He was eager to contribute his
talent to The Note, but he warned me, “I only draw from
life. Not photographs.”

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The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

“No problem,” I replied. “First you’ll go to the luggage carousel in Baggage Claim at LaGuardia Airport.
Next, you’ll go to the Bronx Zoo.”
“Okay,” he said.
Without further ado, let us proceed to Monsieur Du
Bois’ favorite genre-du-jour: The Road Story.
BAGGAGE CLAIM COUP D’ETAT
On a recent flight from O’Hare to LaGuardia, the pilot
mentioned we would be arriving early in New York. I detected a hint of braggadocio in his voice. “Damn the trade
winds! Full speed ahead!” We did, indeed, arrive 20
minutes before schedule. The only problem was, someone
forgot to tell the luggage.
There we waited, the weary travelers from Flight 354,
at the luggage carousel in LaGuardia’s luxurious Baggage
Claim area. It was the usual scene–vultures circling and
plotting their line of attack, lesser birds hovering in the
outer periphery lest their plumage, or other vital parts, be
damaged in the onslaught.
We waited. And waited. Where oh where was my
carrion–I mean suitcase?
To pass the time, I began to construct an algorithm
in my head. My hypothesis: The Amount of Time Elapsing Before a Passenger Uprising Due to Baggage Claim
Delay is in Direct Proportion to the Length of Time of the
Flight. Let’s see, the flight was originally three hours and
20 minutes long–but we arrived 20 minutes early, so do
I subtract the 20 minutes, or . . . whoa, this was getting
complicated.
Luckily, the airport had provided its customers with
the adult equivalent of a baby pacifier–namely, a widescreen television tuned to CNN. But would this be
enough to quell the imminent revolt? I think not, Comrades! What passes for news is merely pablum of the
State! Waaaahhhh! You give us a bottle with no milk in
it!
Sorry. Got carried away for a sec. Speaking of which–
suddenly we noticed an airport guy approaching our
carousel with a giant hand truck piled high with luggage.
Everyone turned to look, as they would at some stricken
citizen being wheeled out on a gurney. We watched in

jealous disbelief as the cart went right past us on its way
to a far corner of Baggage Claim, where another flight’s
worth of harried passengers hopefully would find their
bags, eventually.
The flickering fluorescents overhead began to entrain my brain waves to the Salvador Dali channel. CNN
commentators on the wide-screen TV read from teleprompters hacked by Andre Breton. The very air seemed
to whisper, “This is it, the final straw in the vagaries of
travel in the 21st Century. The revolution of the luggage
carousel is only a metaphor . . .” (The air down in Baggage Claim has a very literary bent.)
I began to ponder the philosophy of our revolt. (Every
revolution needs a good philosophy behind it, n’est-ce
pas?)
I addressed the throng. “What, Comrades, is our
ultimate goal? I would say–if I may speak for us all–it is
to retrieve our luggage. Will we accomplish our goal any
quicker by staging a revolution? Well, if we start running
amok and throwing things, that would likely delay the
baggage even more. So maybe this is not a good idea.”
“But Comrade,” called a timid voice from the rear (no
doubt one of the Lesser Birds) “there is another purpose
to our Revolution.” (Let’s start the capitalization process,

it does so lend importance to our Cause). “We are angry,
Comrade. We have had a long, tiresome journey. There’s
no chairs! There’s no food! There’s no cocktails! We
want to vent!”
“Yes, Comrade,” answered another bird. “You have
an excellent point. But think how much more effective
our Revolution will be if we begin it AFTER we get our
luggage!”
A raucous discussion ensued. Wings, beaks and
talons moved to the beat of the fervor. As the uproar
increased, I could barely discern the beginning of a rumbling undertone beneath the hubbub.
It was the familiar B-flattish hum of a 60-cycle-persecond motor . . . it was . . . the luggage carousel starting
up!
In a fiendish, sadistic bid for supremacy, the Ruling Party made us watch the empty luggage carousel go
around for a full six minutes before loading bags onto
it. The Vultures then swooped in, making off with their
precious cargo. The Lesser Birds found their own trajectories and did the same. As I grabbed my bag and made
a beeline for the egress, a distant voice called in a fading
warble, “But Comrades!
What . . . about . . . the . . . R e v o l u t i o n . . . ?”

U

Artwork by Jonathan Glass. www.fountaingallerynyc.com

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

5

Larry Fink
Interview by Dr. Matt Vashishan. Photos by Larry Fink.

L

arry Fink is a professional photographer of over 55 years.
He has had one man shows at the Museum of Modern Art,
the Whitney Museum of Modern Art, the San Francisco
Museum of Art, among others. He has been awarded two John
Simon Guggenheim Fellowships in 1976 and 1979, and two
National Endowment for the Arts, Individual Photography
Fellowships in 1978 and 1986. He has been teaching for over
53 years. Since 1988, he has been a professor of photography at
Bard College.
Larry has had several books published including: Social
Graces (Aperture 1984); Boxing (powerHouse Books 1997); Runway (powerHouse Books 2000); Primal Elegance (Lodima Press
2006); Somewhere There’s Music (Damiani Editore 2006), Attraction and Desire: 50
Years in Photography
(The Sheldon Art
Galleries 2011), The
Vanities: Hollywood
Parties 2000-2009
(Schirmer/Mosel
2011), and most
recently The Beats
(powerHouse,
2014), Larry Fink:
On Composition
and Improvisation
(Aperture, 2014),
and Opening the Sky
(Stanley/Barker,
2015).
Recently,
Larry has had one
man shows at Box
Gallerie in Bruxelles, Belgium, and
The Los Angeles
County Museum
of Art in California, among others.
Retrospectives of
his work have been
mounted at the
Sheldon Art Gallery
in St. Louis, Missouri, as well as the
Fahey Klein Gallery
in Los Angeles. A
large retrospective, Body and Soul,
has toured many
museums in Spain
since 2012.

Larry’s photographs from his
monograph, The
Beats have been
shown in festivals
in the United States
The Dancing Tree, 2006.
and Europe since

6

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

its release including Noorderlicht in the Netherlands, Fotografia
in Rome, Paris Photo, Feroz Gallery in Bonn, Germany, LOOK3
in Charlottesville, Virginia, and SI Fest in Savignano sul Rubicone, Italy.
Larry is also working on a massive retrospective book with
University of Texas Press that will enter into territories that no
one has ever seen before, along with the already established
work. Grafiche dell’Artiere in Bologna will make the exquisite
prints for the book.
With work previously appearing in Vanity Fair, W, GQ, Detour, and The New York Times Magazine, Larry now occasionally
publishes portfolios with the New Yorker.

Matt Vashlishan: This is Matt Vashlishan; it is Thursday
September 3rd 2015 at 2:30pm. I’m here with Larry Fink at his
amazing compound, is that what you call it? [laughs]
We’re going to talk about Larry Fink’s experiences as a photographer, his involvement with musicians over the past 50 years,
and a little bit about his life in general and how it connects to the
Pocono area. So Larry, tell me a little bit about your history with
the Pocono area, where you’re from, and your experiences with our
jazz club here, the Deer Head Inn.

MV: I see. Did you ever have any specific projects that resulted
from photographing there? Or was it just something you did
because it was there and you were interested in it?

Larry Fink: Well I’ve been out here since 1974
and I started to learn about and go to the Deer Head
around 1976, but not habitually at that time. So I’ve
been here for about 44 years.

MV: Ok sure, it just contributed to it. So as far as that book
goes, since you mentioned it, what is that project a product of?

MV: And before that where were you?
LF: In New York.
MV: And you grew up in New
York?
LF: I was born in New York
- in Brooklyn in 1941. Then
my folks moved to Long Island
in the 50s. I went to a private
school called the Stockbridge
School in Massachusetts, because I screwed up in regular
school. [laughs]
MV: So tell me more about your
experiences with the Deer Head Inn.
LF: I don’t have a really
firm recollection about when
I started to go in a habitual
way, but after a while I started
to photograph there. I guess it Jimmy Rushing, 1957.
was my familiarity with it even
though I knew Chris Solliday (who was the owner at
that time), and I guess people knew me because I was a
photographer on some note, so I started to get familiar
with the place.
MV: Did you go primarily to hear music or did you go with
the specific intent to photograph musicians?
LF: No, to hear music.
MV: Ok, so then it just evolved from that?
LF: Even though I’m the major photographer that
I’m supposed to be, the most important thing in my
mind when I go somewhere is to be there and to do
what I’m supposed to do there, which in this case is
to listen. Photographing is not subordinate, but it’s a
crystal reaction to something, which excites me. I’m
not thinking to myself, “Oh I’m a photographer, that’s
a good place to go get pictures.” Most folks work that
way, and I can’t say I’ve never worked that way because
I want to make good pictures too, but it’s a different
kind of relationship with the experience.

LF: At the Deer Head? I just did it… and then some
of the pictures were taken with Liebman, JD Walter,
and a piano player that lived there for a while ended
up in the book, “Somewhere There’s Music.” But that
wasn’t necessarily a project that I had sustained…

LF: The book itself?
MV: Yes.
LF: Well it’s a product of love,
for one thing.
MV: And this is over a course of
how long?
LF: Fifty years.
MV: So all the photographs in that
book were taken sometime during those
50 years?
LF: Yes, I mean the first one is
from 1956 – the picture of Jimmy
Rushing. I was just in high school
at the Stockbridge school and I
had a senior project or whatever. I
decided I wanted to meet, photograph, and interview jazz musicians. So I decided to do Jimmy.
I didn’t do anybody else. I don’t
know why, but Jimmy was just
beautiful – a really sweet guy and great musician.
MV: And when did you decide to do that book? How did that
come about?
LF: Oh I don’t know… Let me see, when did that
book come out Emma?
Emma (one of Larry’s assistants): 2006

LF: Ah 2006… In case you don’t know, Emma,
besides being a brilliant photographer… I mean really
good, in very different ways than me, has an encyclopedic knowledge of my very being. [laughs]
Emma: I’m just here a lot… [laughs]
MV: Well that’s pretty useful!
LF: We’ve been together for about four years now,
and we do prints and shows and whatever is gorging
the present. There is also an ongoing and underlying
theme, which is archiving. We have my collection back
here that is 49,000 prints strong and negatives to boot

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

7

Carthy’s extreme criticism by the Senate later that year.]
It was a blite on her integrity that
she wasn’t in front of the committee
saying some nasty thing that she was
known to say. “What happened mom? I
thought you were important!” So rather
than talking about a new Cadillac or
being excited our dad was the CEO of
a new company, we were talking about
why our mother wasn’t called to be on
the committee! So it depends on which
way you want to wash your brain as you
grow up, you know?
MV: No kidding!

Dave Lantz IV at the Deer Head Inn, 2012

and we convert them to files so it makes some kind of
sense. And that’s a big job!
MV: So how many people work here with you?
LF: Well we have a payroll [laughs] of about
seven. You know for an old commie who had nothing
but dreams an aspirations in his mind… you know…
I learned how to kick ass! [laughs] But on the other
hand it’s not a contradiction to my mother and my
father too, who loved money. They loved to go to
Florida, that’s why she got kicked out of the communist party and left it. She was a leftist until the end but
she loved money, and she loved property and comfort
and drinking and the good life. Not in a disgustingly
bourgeois way even though she had some degree of
that even though she didn’t know it… she was unconscious of it.
MV: And what did she do?
LF: She was an organizer. She was an organizer for
peace, for education… this and that. She was unpaid.
My dad was an insurance guy, they had some money.
Not wealthy but they were cool.
MV: Oh ok.
LF: So she just organized and organized and organized. She was powerful. She was a known person in
the left wing circles. We were all very disappointed in
mother when the McCarthy hearings were going on –
that she wasn’t called!
[Editors Note: The McCarthy hearings were held
in April 1954 between The United States Army and
Senator Joseph McCarthy. These hearings received
considerable media attention and led to Senator Mc-

8

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

LF: And it’s all about that; how you
wash your kids brain. [laughs] So that’s
where I was. My brain was as clean as
money, until I decided I wanted a lot of
it! In the early days I didn’t make much
at all, but then I got wise. My wife, Martha is very money oriented in a very practical way, so
when I had the opportunity to go into advertising she
was all over it. And for me it was total contradiction
and irony and horrific in many ways, but I did it and I
had fun… but it’s depersonalizing.
MV: Well it’s a job! So what exactly goes on here then? Here
on the property, as far as photographing or production? You
talked about the archive and getting all the prints organized, but
what else as a photographer?
LF: Well we have a dark room, but now we just use
the computers. Had you come two or three weeks ago
we would have been in a printing order. We had a show
and had to print and organize 71 prints and get them
out in about four days. Previous to that things that are
in books are scanned into files so we can reproduce
them and things like that.
Now, in the old days when it used to be film,
each print was an independent gesture – you couldn’t
collectively do a print. If you did portfolios, which I
did, you would work with your arms vs. a printer doing all the work! Dark room workers always have long
arms because the shoulder keeps stretching out! Just
like tenor players have longer fingers than alto players… [laughs]
I was playing with Paul Desmond the other
night; he’s a pretty player. This was a series they put
out on Mosaic with him and Jim Hall. It’s a little too
sweet for me but his contrapuntalism is so much fun to
play with.
MV: So let’s talk about this a little bit. You took me around
your property here, and basically every room that I’ve seen so far
has either some type of audio collection or books, and I was in at
least two or three rooms that have a piano or keyboard of some
type. I know you play the harmonica as well. It seems like as well
as photography you’ve been interested in music for quite some
time. You’ve spoken about forty years ago when you went to the
Deer Head Inn to listen to music, so how did that happen? How

did you become interested? Were you always interested? Did you
hear something at some point that turned you on to it?
LF: Well here’s the story. The first memory I ever
had was probably when I was 1½ years old in Brooklyn,
and I was in a bassinet on the floor in a big room of my
parents’ house, and there was a blackout from World
War II. They had just pleasurably (and habitually) had
a couple of scotches. They said “oh it’s a blackout!”
And they put on Chick Webb on the crazy old record
machine that played 78’s. Then they started dancing
around the room. So my first memory was about my
parents dancing to Chick Webb during a blackout.
[laughs] Which was right on. The point is that the
folks didn’t know Charlie Parker or Coltrane, and were
pretty much saddled up with Chick, Coleman Hawkins,
Lester Young, Billy, Sarah, Ella, all the swing monsters
who were prominent at that time.
MV: And they listened to that all the time?
LF: All the time. That was their deal, they were
jazz heads. They listened to Louis Armstrong as well of
course.
MV: This is important to note, because it’s what you grew up
around.
LF: That’s the way they washed my brain! [laughs]
But, what a great washing! And they also took me to
the symphony in Brooklyn or wherever it was. They
had paintings in the house. Since my dad was an insurance guy, he insured the Soyer Brothers: Moses, Raphael, Issac; they were painters. He did them, a couple
other left wing painters, stuff like that. So I had that
branch of culture.
MV: So there were a lot of different kinds of art going on
around you.
LF: It wasn’t an artist
family, so I wasn’t growing
up unconventionally, even
though I was an unconventional kid. Jazz in those days
was pretty popular stuff.

to go out to the Cork and Bib. Wednesday night was
amateur night. Jackie Mclean came out with a student
of his and they played one set. The student had all the
embroidery of hipness: a really beat up horn, a black
dude with a really tarnished look, and a lot of goodness and anger. He played like Jackie did but worse or
better, or worse and better, I mean with these swooping harmonics. For me as a kid this was the tonic of
hipness, from reading Norman Mailer: “The White
Negro,” about all these types of existential tones about
guys who had experiences that precluded the civil
rights movement. It was the idea of hopelessness but
also empowerment. Anyhow, the cat comes out and
plays. Mike, the piano player decides he wants to go
home and have a hotdog and that he is not going to
play anymore. So they say, “Screw it, we won’t play
anymore!” and I say, “No, no this can’t be! This cat is
too good I have to hear him again at least once...I’ll
play the piano!”
MV: You said you would play?
LF: I did.
MV: Did you play at all then?
LF: A little bit. [giggles]
MV: So your parents had a piano?
LF: Yeah, we had a piano! I played fundamental
blues but never learned key signature or timings. Still
don’t know it! [laughs] I have a semblance of it but it
doesn’t necessarily compute, which is a pain in the ass
because it’s really the primary thing for improvisation.
MV: Besides intuition.
LF: I can improvise like shit, all kinds of ways, but
it’s all wrong.
MV: It depends who hears it!

MV: So when did you start
making your own decisions about
what you heard, when, where, and
how you heard it? Were you still
pretty young?
LF: Oh yeah I would say
right out of high school I
started to move onto Miles
and Bird because that’s what
was happening.
MV: Did you go out to hear
live music? You were in a great
place to hear it.
LF: In Long Island I used

Dave Lantz IV with Bob Dorough and George Young at the Deer
Head Inn, 2009

LF: [Laughs] Right. Anyhow, I go outside and had
this big ball of hash that I
had scored in the car. I sit
there and smoke half of it
thinking that this is going
to be the elixir that’s gonna
bring my chops into order.
Lord help us! So we get back
on the bandstand and I sit
at the piano; they have a
nice Steinway too. I get up
there and they all get ready
to count off the tune “this
and that in Bb”…[Laughs]
and I say “Excuse me… I am
a little limited, can we work
on it in C first and then we
can move up to those other
tonics?” So they give me a
look and mumble, “Alright

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

9

man okay, we can do that… Okay…” You know how
they can be.
MV: I do, I do.
LF: So I start to stride out a little bit and they are
looking at me like, “this cat can’t play piano.” I am
trying my best. Anyhow, the cat starts to play and they
get the thing going on and I just comp a little bit. Then
it’s time for my solo and I get so damn breathless that
I faint and I fall off the goddamn piano chair and slide
under the piano, anxiety stricken! But the band is on
and that’s what I wanted!
MV: So you end up getting what you want in the end anyway.
They didn’t, but you did!
LF: Right. They left me down there… “You stay
down there, okay? We’ll be pianoless this set, you’re
cool.”
MV: You probably had the best seat for that set too!
LF: Right [Laughs], I tried to get better after that
but I haven’t succeeded.
MV: But you’ve had a lot of fun.
LF: I have.
MV: Which I think is more important. So that was your piano
debut, right?
LF: [Laughs] Yeah.
MV: Have you ever tried to play publically since, or is it something you just fool around with at home?
LF: Well, do you know Claire Daily? Claire is a
friend along with Ruben Rodin, who is a bass player
and a photographer. She has a flat in New York and
invited me to come and play with her from time to
time. She thinks I am not terrible, or even better than
that! She likes my energy and is a dear of a person.
So I was going to this Look 3 Festival out in Charlottesville. I was the star photographer of that festival. I
asked if I could bring up a trio because we had played
at her loft a couple of times and had some fun. I can’t
attest to the quality of the music, but she said that it
was better than I thought so that was enough for me.
I brought my trio down, got them paid and they stayed
at this sumptuous plantation I was staying at… an
unbelievable place. I have a friend down there and it’s
like Monticello. So I gave a lecture, and then we had an
hour to play.
MV: What was the lecture on?
LF: Oh, my pictures. Actually, the lecture was with
Donald Antrim, who is a writer and friend of mine.
Then we played for an hour or so and the next night
there was another thing and we played again. It was
okay, I was very shy. Then after that I started playing
the harmonica.

10

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

Steve Lacy, 1964.

MV: When exactly did that start?
LF: The harmonica is only about four and a half
years old I guess. But Jesus that’s a thrill, since it is so
limited you can’t get too bad!
MV: Right, now we have talked about this. You have a bunch
of diatonic harmonicas, but no chromatic?
LF: I can’t play chromatic. I have one but all it does
is play the wrong thing! [laughs]
MV: That’s the funny thing about the chromatic scale, it always does the wrong thing! So that’s only four years old, you have
come a long way on that thing!
LF: I can play it. I am reasonably articulate on the
sucker. I used to go to a harmonica club over in the
Poconos...
MV: Harmonica club?
LF: Yeah, there is a harmonica club out at Stroudsburg. A couple years ago I was going up and there was
a guy, Scottie, who was the head of the club. Not a guy

that’s where I met Steve Lacey and
Ann Roswell.
MV: So did you go to see these people and
then just tried to talk to them? Because I know
you are very open and you are not hesitant.
LF: Yeah, I am more vociferous
now because I am older and I don’t
give a shit. Back then I was shy and I
did have a little modesty because I was
“hero-izing” these guys.

John Coltrane, 1961-1962.

who really played the harmonica but old Irish tunes
- he was a good old family Irish guy, and he played
clean. Each note was like a whistle. I would come up
and play my wobbling blues. I never play clean, I can
but it takes so much extra effort that why... just go on
through and have a little extra intonation on the side.
What difference does it make? Unless you are really
anal... He heard me play and he said, “You are really
good, but there is something to be said for a clean note
Larry.” [Laughs]
MV: So we talked about growing up and the musical influence in your house. We talked about piano, harmonica, playing a
little bit here and there. So when did you start interacting with all
these musicians? There must have been something about them that
drew you to either photograph them or be around them. How did
that start?
LF: Mostly to photograph them. You know, I had
a perverse idolatry about jazz musicians. Not perverse
against them but against my own sense of worth. I
mean I used to “heroize” them to a high degree.
MV: Was that about their music or their personalities?
LF: They were black and I had a reverse racism if
you would call it that, which of course obviously by
this time is gone. The music was so important to me,
not only to me but at that time all of the beatniks and
intellectuals…
MV: What time are we talking about?
LF: The 60’s. Before the Stones came in.
MV: That’s the best time, there was so much going on.
LF: Oh, unbelievable. Archie, Marian and Leroy,
those were all my friends. I started to interact with
them with the left wing movement and the civil rights
movement, and with the free music thing. You know,

MV: What did you find when you did
talk to them? Did you feel this vision that you
had of them was justified? I know a lot people
today say that jazz musicians are so accessible
or friendly or just open to do whatever. A lot of
people think, “Oh so and so, they are so much
this way or that way,…” but then when you
talk to them you find out that they are really
just normal people. So did you find that as you started to meet
these people, you also enjoyed them as people too?
LF: Yeah, but I hung onto the isolated idolatry for a
long time.
MV: Well it was probably out of respect because you hear
what they do.
LF: What they did to my soul opened me up in so
many ways. Musically and humanly it was unbelievable. They were the total tonic for my existence, they
made it possible.
MV: Did those relationships happen first and then the photography happened second?
LF: No, as a young photographer I would photograph wherever I was. There was always a camera
around. I photographed whenever I saw something that
I felt and reflected on, like if I was at the Five Spot or
something like that. I didn’t photograph enough now
that I see my archives - they are broad and wide and
encompass much of the last century’s culture, but I
didn’t photograph enough. I should have photographed
more. I don’t know why that is, but it just so happens
to be. I wasn’t the kind of photographer who would
say, “Oh, that’s my project,” and then would start to
hammer away at this type of thing compulsively like a
work a day thing.
MV: Because it does come off kind of forced…
LF: It can be, or it doesn’t have to be. For me it was
like, “wow,” and then I would get pictures harvested
and I wouldn’t have to go back. That didn’t happen until Social Graces in the 70’s when I said, “Wow, this is
something!” I started to feel my oats as a photographer
in a very singular way. I had been at it by that time in
the 70’s for almost 15 to 20 years. I was starting to
bulk up and then I started to work really hard and I
have ever since. Now I am laid back again because I am

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

11

and club is really visible, what happens in the back offices of Atlantic Records is not so.
MV: Right. Did you ever have an opportunity to get back
there, whether it is just the kitchen of a club, to interact or see
people?
LF: Well, the kitchen of the Vanguard was mine to
have because I was Max and Lorraine’s family photographer. Because they were leftist, they knew my parents so they were always together.
MV: Was there a big difference when you saw people that
were backstage or hanging out versus the feeling you got from
them when watching them perform on stage?
LF: Oh yeah, sure because they just fell into their
own being on stage. By definition they are going to proactively be a different way.
MV: Is there anything you look for when you are photographing something?
Bob Dorough and his wife, Sally, 2010

older and I have achieved everything you can possibly
achieve just about, and I just photograph out of the
same impulses and the same meanings, but much less.
MV: Well, there is much less pressure to actually do something.
LF: Yeah, I am not under assignment for the most
part and when I am I go to do it. I love assignments.
MV: Now how about the other book, the boxing book? Were
you drawn to that in the same way you were drawn to musicians?
Can you draw similar connections between what inspired you,
whether it is the personalities, or were you inspired by what you
saw?
LF: I liked the emotional honesty of the expression.
I liked the obsessiveness of it. Musicians are obsessive out of their brains and boxers are obsessive out of
their brains. It’s a different kind of training, that’s for
sure. But it’s that kind of incredible marriage of will
and mystery and obsession. Boxing is like that. Boxing
more than music, there’s a highly dramatic class structure between managers and owners and promoters and
simple innocent boxers and champions. Unbelievable
slices of class life in terms of Marxist sociological ties.
MV: All existing at the same time in one situation. Whereas
the musicians are pretty much just singular identities or the most
you have is a band...
LF: Even though managers can screw musicians all
over the place, but I wasn’t privy to that.
MV: Well it is not as visible.
LF: No, exactly. What happens in the boxing arena

12

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

LF: Well, sure. I’m looking for this...music like
photography, like art, like the question of anything is
the mathematics of what creates beauty. Basically what
you are trying to do is create a structure for which the
person/subject can live. If you are photographing one
person, or the musician in this case, the objective is to
see how many different ways you can invent a mosaic for that person to live in, not necessarily just as a
pleasing design but also as a design of the experience
you are having in front of your eyes. So like improvisation where you take a tune with a various number of
changes within it, then you scope and waddle and architect and move out beyond and make it into very slim
lines and then fatten it back up or bring in a kind of
vibrato and then finally end it with a smooth motion,
well you can do the same thing without sound using a
visual premise. That is if the person who is looking at
the picture can see it that way. I try to make it easier
than harder. I am not obsessed with being obscure.
In fact I want to be accessible, but my whole credo in
terms of being accessible was not to cheapen the experience by the accessibility, but to enhance it.
MV: Did you ever try to recreate or portray what you were
hearing through what you were creating visually?
LF: One-to-one, never that...that’s because the
abstractions just don’t concur. It would be rigorously
phony to think that they do.
MV: I’m saying if you heard something that was a really fast,
an exciting tune, then a photograph from that exact moment could
appear quite opposite. It could be sad or appear slow, but you don’t
know because you are capturing this one moment a certain way.
Do you ever try to capture the emotion of the experience literally
for the sake of a photograph?
LF: No, for the sake of trying to find a code or visualize the experience, no. For instance there is a picture
in the music book of Trane that refers to the sheets
of sound, you know the one? I definitely purposely

tried to do that. That’s called panning the camera. You
stabilize it and then move it. I tried to do that because
Trane was talked about back then in ‘62 as playing
“sheets of sound” and I said, “Hmm.”

known to be Mr. Tambourine Man in Bob Dylan’s song.
He was a beautiful, happy-go-lucky guy who had his
three fingers of his strumming hand crushed by something, and they were basically three balls. Since he was
a guitar player, this enhanced his guitar playing ability
by creating a rhythmic possibility and he elaborated on
MV: That was a very prominent adjective that was used in
it extensively. We met through God knows where and
any articles that were written about him during that time.
I used to go to New York before I lived there and go to
his flat. I would hang out and play blues dulcimer of
LF: Yeah, it was like rapid-fire impressionism.
all things. [Laughs] And get high and hang with Mr.
Tambourine Man. Who would know that that kind of
MV: But that doesn’t even necessarily reflect the moment
fame would ever become him! That went on for a year
musically, it just reflects how people were describing him.
and then finally I took his flat. That was pretty much
on the folk music scene so even though I was listening
LF: Right, but either way the words were in my
to jazz and I was going around the corner to the Metrobrain and I thought I would try it and I did it. The bigpole and downstairs where Eldridge and those guys
gest miracle was realizing it worked! [Laughs] Really!
would be holding fort, basically what would be hapThose things are gifts to me. I mean, I am a talented
pening in the homestead was more of a folk blues kind
guy but when the shit comes out like that...that’s cool!
of an orientation. It
was more important
MV: Whether you try to
for me to play music
or not. Like the photo of the
at that time, even as
trombone we were talking
inept as I was I think,
about fitting into the shape
than it was to photoof the tree. That’s a hell of
graph. Photographing
a thing. [The photograph is
has always been, even
used on page 6 of this issue.]
though I have done
quite it well over the
LF: Right. I saw that
years, something that
a while ago as I told
is against my claw
you.
because I am not
shy but I don’t like
MV: But that was a surto interrupt people
prise to you, right? That was
or mess them up. In
not something that you had
order to photograph
you have to cop an
intentionally planned?
attitude. You have to
be on top of it, like,
LF: Oh no, I inten“I am a photographer
tionally planned that
and I have certain
but I didn’t know if I
privileges and rights!”
was going to be able to
One of the reasons
get it.
now, in my ancient
times that I don’t
MV: Oh I see, I see.
photograph as much
as I could, especially
LF: I was two blocks
on the street or at
away and I saw the
public events, is that
crook in the tree and
Bobby Avey at the Deer Head Inn, 2012
I don’t particularly feel like my putting my camera in
I saw the trombone. I
people’s faces. Because I know when I do, I do it. It’s
said to myself, “Huh, I wonder if this is possible.” So
not just a joke.
I was moving along with it, like the undercurrent to a
wave and then *whap whap whap* and I didn’t know
MV: Well you have to.
whether I had gotten it until a week later.
MV: That makes it even better!
LF: No no, it was willful but still based on chance.
The symphony was written. Whether or not I was going to be able to expedite it was another story.
MV: That’s great. So do you have other stories that stick out
on your mind about any particular musicians or clubs?
LF: Bruce Langhorne was the guitar player who is

LF: I have to go after it obsessively. That to me… it
makes me curdle from the social end. However, back
to music. So when I finally inherited Bruce’s 8 Amsterdam Avenue (which is now Lincoln Center) flat, I
used to have some of these musician guys over like it
was the style of Bohemia of that day. If somebody had
a good place that they had as a flat, kids would come
around and they want to stay for a long time because
“somebody had a flat so let’s stay around.” Now I, being my mother’s son, wasn’t going to have any of that. I
needed my territory, I needed my privacy, and I needed

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

13

my control. So they
would come around
every night and we
would get high and
we would play and
play and play and
Bruce would come
by. A guy named
Sandy Bull, a piano
player and odd
person who eventually killed himself
by burning down his
townhouse because
he was smoking
in bed, was a brilliant musician and
would come back
with very odd and
obscure configurations from the east.
We would all do
that all the time,
but when it came
to be four o’clock
in the morning and
everyone was just
about passed out on
the floor… “Alright,
let’s go!” “What do
you mean?” “Let’s
Dave Liebman at the Deer Head Inn, 2010
go! Four o’clock…
time’s up. I gotta go to sleep.” “Man, this is a house…
this is cool, what a place! Yow!” “No, no, no yow about
it! Out!” And then the other part of my mother that I
shed quite considerably is the mean part that set in,
“Alright motherfucker, out the fucking door!” And
they would leave but come back every night at eight!
[Laughs] But it was all about music. It was all about
getting high, hanging out, and about music.
MV: So you were actually living like musicians were living. I
mean, you seem to have been doing all the same things that they
all talk about doing.
LF: Yeah.
MV: So it is interesting that photography took you through
life, not music. Music stayed with you the whole time but what
you ended up doing is photography.
LF: Yeah.
MV: So how did that come about? Is it just the way it happened or was there an event?
LF: You mean, why am I not a musician?
MV: Yeah! If that is how you were starting out. Was there
a particular event or were people drawn to what you were doing
with photography instead of music?
LF: Well I think it was too introverted.

14

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

MV: What was?
LF: Music.
MV: For your personality?
LF: Since I am
my mother’s son and
I had social engagement as part of my
personality, I wanted
to contribute in a way
where communication was really on
schedule. Music was
not that. Music was
to communicate the
schedule of the soul
to the bigger whole
but it was not about
talking about public
events. I was a real
political, revolutionary, public event
kind of guy. So along
with playing music
all night I would be
on a demonstration
line or in an office, or
photographing on the
street in the daytime. So had I been a musician, rather
than going out to those public events and photographing and using the camera as my license for my curiosity
about what is happening out there in the street… those
six, seven, eight hours that I spent in the broader arena
I would have spent in front of a piano. That I couldn’t
do.
MV: I see. The solitary thing…
LF: Yeah I couldn’t do that.
MV: Because a lot of the time that you were spending was still
with people or musicians playing or hanging out. That had to be
part of it also.
LF: Yeah because in order to develop real musical
chops one has to have real musical chop time. I didn’t
want to put that time in. Photography was a loose
way to put in chop time because you can go out in the
street and photograph and see all the events.
MV: You are still actually doing the thing.
LF: You are still engaged.
MV: You aren’t sitting at home with your camera taking a
picture of a cup and then looking at it and figuring it out…
LF: There are 88 keys on a piano and I could photograph each one of those keys and come back with…
not much. [Laughs] I was hungry, hungry, hungry for
life experience as I was hungry for musical beauty and

release, but I wasn’t willing to put in the chop
time to become the musician that I possibly
could’ve been.
MV: Did you ever take a third road at any time or
was that basically what you did? It was either music or
photography?
LF: Yeah, the third road was the revolution
in the 60’s, political action and activity…
MV: But you were still photographing during that,
so that was still the vehicle.
LF: Yeah, but I was still pretty well ensconced in certain activities.
MV: But you never decided to be a lawyer or anything…
LF: No, I never took a conventional road. I
started teaching in 1963 in Harlem as part of
the revolution.
MV: Was that teaching photography?
LF: Yeah. Teaching photography and
teaching community awareness, being part of
Ornette Coleman, 2007
a bigger revolutionary program. That was my
conventional way, if you will. I became a teacher
you have a relationship with Bobby.
and then I went to school at the U Arts in Cooper
Union. I have been teaching all my life and I am teachLF: Oh yeah with all the guys. Pat McGee as well
ing still.
as Davey Lantz, a good piano player man…complicated
harmonies, and McGee is ridiculous. He can do it and
MV: Where are you teaching now?
with such heat too, he is not shy at all. It’s fun.
LF: I’ve been teaching at Bard College for 24 years,
professor. And then Lehigh University, Layfette, Yale,
Cooper Union.
MV: Now is that as a guest?
LF: Ever since Yale in 1978 I have been an active
professor. No college degree but I was always a guest. I
was full time at Cooper Union as the acting head of the
department for a moment of time.
MV: Do you have any particular thoughts or experiences
about these area musicians like Bob Dorough, Phil Woods, Dave
Liebman, or Urbie Green? Anything like that that sticks out to
you since you have been here and been around?
LF: Well, Bobby Dorough is a leprechaun of goodness. One thing that is really clear about all the musicians in this area here is the extent of their generosity
when it comes to young kids and to the continued development of the music. This is really pretty profound.
Unlike the sometimes mean spirited cutting contests of
some fabled yesteryear, this place takes on the present
with some tremendous amount of generosity.
MV: And you have had a lot of interaction with the younger
generation too, whether it be Jay Rattman or Bobby Avey. I know

MV: Well, it’s a small very close family up here, you know?
So I think the learning environment - this master to younger apprentice type thing is just a much richer experience for everybody
because it’s not that big. It is who it is and there are only the handful of people that the kids are going to go to, but they all happen
to be these generous type personalities that you are talking about.
A place like New York or Philadelphia… there are just too many
people and it’s so spread out and un-personal in a way. It’s a city
and that’s just the way it’s going to be, but I mean it is a unique
situation here. I will tell you when I went to college for the first
time you realize that if you grew up in Minnesota, you didn’t have
this. Being a kid growing up here you think that this is the way it
is, but it is not the way it is and this is a very special place in that
regard.
That’s the whole reason that I am here with you in the
first place. You did the same thing with Jonno Rattman and others
I’m sure. Jonno in particular has gone on to do wonderful things
and has a great career ahead of him as a photographer. It is not
just about music, but about art in general. So I consider you the
same kind of person as Phil, Liebman, or Dorough, and I appreciate you taking the time to show me around and have this conversation. I think it’s important for our readers to know you are a
staple of the art community with a great appreciation for music
and culture and one of the true heavy hitters in the history of photography with an incredibly unique viewpoint and sense of humor
on any topic! Thank you!

U

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

15

38th COTA 2015
Jazz And Art Festival

By Lauren Chamberlain
Photos by Bob Weidner

The 2015 COTA Cats

The last COTA related article in the
Fall/Winter 2015 issue was a feature
written by one of COTA’s founders, Rick
Chamberlain. As many of you know based
on word of mouth and my articles here,
Rick passed away after a one-year battle
with cancer in March of 2015. Because of
both Rick’s and Eric Doney’s passing, this
was a special year for the COTA Festival
and I thought it was fitting to hear about
it through the eyes of Lauren, Rick’s
daughter. Lauren is the COTA President
on the Board of Directors for the festival.
I would like to express my sincere thanks
to Lauren for taking the time to write this
article (certainly not easy!) and share her
thoughts and views on what was a special
event that will be remembered for a long
time. – Matt Vashlishan

T

he 2015 COTA Festival was no
different than any of the other
37 years in that it was an awe
inspiring weekend of composition,
world class music, and celebrating the
musicians who have made this jazz
mecca their home. It was a differ-

16

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

ent year though, as this year was
celebrating Rick Chamberlain;
co-founder, trombonist, composer
and friend. My father lost his
battle with cancer on March 27,
2015, and the COTA organization
celebrated his life and legacy with
COTA Festival Orchestra
a line-up of music that was dedicated to him.
the community is also unsurpassed.
The festival opened with Nancy
Although known internationally for
Reed, (no stranger to COTA as she
Schoolhouse Rock, his talent range is
and her husband, Spencer played at
so much broader. His tribute to losses
the first one and quite a lot through
this year near and dear to us was sad,
the years). A beautiful voice backed
but so heart-warming in a way only
by an all-star rhythm section: Jim
Bob can be. He can warm the heart
Ridl, Steve Varner, and special guests
of anyone with his smile and voice,
Bill Goodwin and Spencer Reed.
and pair him with Steve Berger, Pat
The Dixie Gents took the main
O’Leary, and Tom Whaley…no one
stage for the first time this year. The
can help but smile.
Dixie Gents were always a favorite
strolling band during the festival
COTA Festival Orchestra
and a staple on Sunday nights at the
The COTA festival orchestra
Tannersville Inn every Sunday night
transformed through the years as
throughout the 80’s and early 90’s in
many different names in its growth
their red striped shirts and musical
stage but ultimately became the
antics. Bob Leive, Ken Foy, Jay RatPhil Woods’ COTA Festival Orchestman, Paul Hubbell, Paul Scott and
tra. Under the leadership of Woods
Ray Schweisguth paid tribute to just
and the dedication and nurturing
one of the very many musical genres
of Chamberlain, the COTA festival
that made up Rick Chamberlain’s
orchestra album Celebration became
career through the years. And in true
Grammy nominated. Woods’ writDixieland fashion they honored him
ing for the band, a band he knew like
with When the Saints Go Marching
himself, and my fathers’ charismatic
In which brought the crowd to their
feet, and to tears.

Bob Dorough

Very few can
argue that seeing the
charismatic bopster
Bob Dorough live is
not a great experience. A long time local
to the area, Bob has
always been a COTA
friend. The festival
would not be complete without Bob’s
whimsical lyrics and
enthusiasm. His talent
has spanned decades
and he continues
to delight the audience. His friendship
and involvement with Bob Dorough Quartet

Jim Ridl

COTA Cat Saxaphone section

way of leading the band was a combination that made musical history.
The big band honored him eloquently
at the festival with a trombone section that wanted nothing more than
to play him proud. The band is a
steadfast at the festival, representing two of the founders’ passion for
the festival and music. Now led by
Matt Vashlishan and coordinated by
Erica Golaszewski they play the last
Monday of every month at the Deer
Head Inn.
Shortly after Dad passed, the
COTA community also lost Eric
Doney, pianist, composer and mentor. He and my father were not only
friends, but they shared the same philosophies, embracing the importance
of mentoring new cats in the jazz
world. In that vein, COTA dedicated
a double set in memory
of Eric and gave the
reins of organizing it to
his students, past and
present, to pay tribute
to him in their own musical words. Bobby Avey
took this task to heart
and brought together a
group of musicians that
were all deeply touched
by Eric and follow in
his footsteps with their
ability to mesmerize
people with such lyrical
melodies and compositions. Bobby Avey, Zach
Brock, Mitch Cheng,
Davey Lantz, Patrick
McGee, Vaughn Stoffey, Connor Koch and
Tyler Dempsey played a
melancholy, yet fitting,

tribute to Eric, with such beautiful
lines that it felt like Eric was there.

Jazz Mass

The Jazz Mass was started in
1978 by then pastor of the Presbyterian Church of the Mountain, Bill
Cohea and COTA Founder Richard
Chamberlain. In exchange for Cohea
performing Chamberlain’s marriage
for him Bill asked for him, in lieu
of money, to develop a jazz mass.
Chamberlain took the commission to
heart and enlisted the help of other
talented writers; David Ellis, Wolfgand Knittel and Mark Kirk, and they
developed what we have now come to
know and love over the last 37 years
as the Mass. Mark Kirk took over the
conductor role this year and led the
Mass band and choir gloriously.

The Chamberlain family

COTA Cats

Celebrating its 35th year, the big
band comprised of local high school
students, again rose to the occasion
and performed with the air of professional musicians. They honored
my father musically with the help
of Sherrie Maricle who composed a
piece in his honor which the COTA
Cats played. Sam Burtis also joined
the Cats bringing his amazing trombone talents in his honor.

Chamberlain Family

The Chamberlain family could
not have been prouder (or larger)
when COTA named the stage the
Rick Chamberlain stage. It was such
an honor for the family to know how
great his outreach was and how much
he was loved and respected by COTA
and the community.

U

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

17

Jay Rattman - clarinet, Paul Scott - tuba, Paul Hubbell - saxophone,
Ray Schweisguth - banjo, Bob Leive - trumpet, and Ken Foy - trombone

THE DIXIE GENTS

Photo Bob Weidner

From The ACMJC Oral History Project

Jonno Rattman

Jerry Dodgion Interview
Part Two

By Jay Rattman
Jay Rattman: So you were in L.A. staying with your wife’s grandparents, is this Dottie?
Jerry Dodgion: Yeah, I stayed all night and then I
picked up Gerald [Wilson] and we picked up Teddy Edwards and we drove to Las Vegas. Then I said, “Who
else is in the band?” and Gerald said, “Well there
are four saxes: Teddy, and Wardell [Gray] is playing
the other tenor.” I said, “oooh.” [Laughs] “And Jewel
Grant is playing baritone.” I said, “okay.” And then
Teddy mentions, “You know,” he says, “that Wardell
was revived from an overdose just three weeks ago
and did we think he is going to be okay?” Gerald said
“Benny said that Wardell told him that he would be
fine, and Benny is very a classy, honest guy so if he told
me that, then that is good enough for me.” He gives
everybody their due, you know. So we got to Las Vegas
and the new hotel is on the other side of town, over
the tracks on the west side, but all the big hotels are
on the strip which is on the other side of town on the
main highway. There was a whole real estate development there with new houses and such, so they put us
in houses. There were about three or four of us in each
house. Teddy’s wife was there; she was a dancer in the
line in the show, and there was a line of girls with all
sorts of things happening. The band was four saxes,
three trumpets, one trombone, piano, bass and drums,
and Benny was the conductor. It wasn’t a jazz gig, it
was a show gig, but it was good money for jazz players

20

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

who don’t get paid like that. I think it was six nights
a week, or seven, but it might have been six and we
were closed on the seventh night. I don’t remember,
but anyway we played three shows a night so it paid
very well for 1955. Anyway, we rehearsed for a week,
oh and Mercer Ellington was there because he had
written some of the music for the show. He took the
hardest way to write. He transcribed a Machito record
for one of these dances, and it seemed like he wasn’t
experienced in seeing any of that music written which
is usually written in quarter notes and eighth notes.
He wrote it in eighth notes and 16ths. When we went
through it the band was having trouble reading it and
Wardell read it perfectly! Now that really amazed me
because he is really known for being a jazz player and
he read it perfectly, and I thought how is that possible?
He can’t be reading all the time. I know if I am sightreading all the time it is good, but if I am not, it’s not!
So after we got through it once and he had not made
one mistake, he turned around to the trumpets and
he said, “Okay, you trumpets, the bus’s motor is still
running to take you guys back to Los Angeles. You can
do better than that!” It wasn’t until years later when
I knew Pepper Adams and we played together, Pepper
and Wardell had been very good friends and they were
both avid readers. So he had it together, he had really
good training some place, and really had it together.
No one else read Machito written in 16ths and eighths
because it’s just a big obstacle. That’s a lot of my learn-

ing experience that has happened to me and
that’s happening all the time. Anyway, we rehearsed for a week and then we had our grand
opening.

JD: Oh yeah and it was pretty successful all
through the summer! The third show was
packed full of people who went to the other
shows and this was a little later than the other
shows. The place was doing well. The casino
was always full. But when we left, it was after
Labor Day I guess, and Lionel Hampton came
in for two or three weeks and during that time
the place closed. They said it was because of
bad management, which could be. Who knows?
Or… Who the hell knows? You know, what
goes on… Maybe the other places didn’t like
the competition. It was a strange place anyway;
Las Vegas is just so strange. There is no culture…everything is made for the green tables.
The whole city is designed for that. And some
people who aren’t connected with that are
living a normal life. There is only one guy I
met that sort of grew up there, Dennis Mackrel. He went to high school there and started
college there. He lived in a military family
and they lived lots and lots of different places.
Then later on of course, Joe Williams moved
there, [James] Moody lived there for a while.
I thought, that sure is a different place that I
knew. I don’t know, maybe things are getting
better, but it was just so far out to me.
JR: So, after the engagement I guess you returned to the
Bay Area?
JD: Yeah, and then in October that year I got
married! That’s why I said it was a big year! In
’55 all this happened, Billie Holiday, my own
record date, the Vince Guaraldi record date,
the summer with Benny Carter, with all of its Dizzy with Jerry in Perth Australia 1989. Dizzy’s United Nations Band.
ups and downs, and I got married too all in
the same year.
JD: She played a little drums then. She had good time.
I tried to get her to study or take some lessons so that
JR: So when you were staying in L.A. before the gig at that time
she could sound more professional, but every time she
that was the family of your fiancée because you weren’t married
had some reason to not do it. But she had a gift, an
yet?
unbelievable gift of time. In the little bands she played
with, the drummers were often late so she started
JD: We weren’t married yet, no. But I had been there
filling in. That is how she learned, and her father was
several times visiting.
a drummer. Her father played the strip joints in San
Francisco. Her grandparents introduced me to Italian
JR: Was this Dottie?
food like I had never known. [Her grandfather] made
his own wine, rented trees from an olive orchard and
JD: Yeah.
made his own olive oil. Really unbelievable, just great!
When we got married, we moved to Larkspur, which is
JR: And how did you guys meet?
in Marin County across the Golden Gate Bridge. It was
great! A friend of mine bought a house and he said,
“I am going to fix up the downstairs as a three room
JD: We met on a gig; she was a singer. There was a
apartment and you can have it for 30 dollars a month
little gig I played near San Rafael, across the Golden
when it is ready.” I said okay. But the whole place was
Gate Bridge in San Francisco.
175 stairs up the side of the hill. So we moved in there
and it was great. Thirty dollar a month rent and it was
JR: Had she not picked up drums by that time?

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

Photo courtesy Jerry Dodgion

JR: Did the band finish the engagement?

21

Photo courtesy Jerry Dodgion

beautiful up there, but getting
up there and getting down
was another thing. I learned
a lot. You know when you get
in your car and are ready to
go to a gig and say, “Oh, my
mouthpiece!” Well you don’t
do that when you have to go
up 175 stairs. Then of course
when we worked together I
would carry the drums down,
carry drums up, carry the
garbage down, but you know
when you are newly married
it is okay because everything
works. You know! We were
there just a couple of years
when Dottie and I were working some summer gig in ’57.
I don’t know how to describe
that area, it wasn’t north,
it was sort of west of San
Francisco in a little mountainous area. It was a room and
board place where we played,
but every Sunday I was working a jam session at a motel
in San Mateo which is close
to the San Francisco airport.
One time we were playing a
slow blues and I had my eyes
closed. I come to the end of
Jerry with Jerome Richardson in the kitchen of the Village Vanguard around 1985.
my chorus and I hadn’t even
opened my eyes yet and I hear
tie and I both drove down and stayed at her grandparanother alto start to play. I look over and it is Charlie
ent’s place. The first night I think we had a rehearsal
Mariano. I thought, “That’s amazing! How the hell did
and I think we recorded the next two days. I remember
he get down here?” I know he is in San Francisco playing at the Black Hawk with Shelly Manne and his band. we were recording with the two altos, and vibes and
Then I see that Russ Freeman came down with him, so rhythm section, and we were listening to the playback
and I remember saying, “Gee, we sound a little bit like
we ended up playing a number of songs together and it
Phil and Quill!” I didn’t know Phil then of course. I nowas a nice time. Charlie was a really good guy and he
ticed that nobody said anything. West coast, you know!
played his ass off.
JR: Had you known him already by this time?

JR: They weren’t familiar with Phil?

JD: I didn’t really know him; I played with him one
time at the San Francisco Union. I had played a couple
of tunes with him, I think but I didn’t really know
him. So we had a nice time and about a month later
Russ Freeman calls, and he says, “Say, we are doing
an album with Charlie, and Shelly Manne, and Monty
Budwig, and Victor Feldman, and two altos, and Jimmy
Rowles on piano, and I would like to know if you
would like to make it.” And he said — this is so dated
but so true — he said, “Well these days you have to
have a gimmick to get a record date.”

JD: No. I wasn’t too familiar with him either; I would
just hear him on the radio. We did one song that I
played the flute on, and Charlie played the recorder.
We’re listening to the playback and I see Shorty Rogers come into the control room. I know who he is, but
I don’t know him at all. The other guys know him
because they worked with him a lot so they run into
the other room to say hello to him, and I just stayed
out there to look at the music because there was a lot
of music coming up. I didn’t think anything about that,
and about a month later I get a call from Red Norvo
and he said, “Jerry this is Red Norvo. Frank Sinatra
gave me an opportunity to take a quintet into the
Sands Hotel in Las Vegas for a six week gig, would you
be interested?” I said, “Sure! Yeah.” And we talked
about it, and before we say goodbye, I said, “Excuse
me, Red. You and I have never met, so why are you
calling me?” He said, “Oh, my brother-in-law told me
to call you.” I said, “Who is your brother-in-law?” He
said, “Shorty Rogers.” I said, “I know who he is, but

JR: (laughs) Nothing’s changed!
JD: That seems to work all the time, but that’s the
saying! So I said, “What’s the gimmick?” and he said,
“They are all World War I songs.” And I said, “Oh shit,
will you send me the music?” He said, “Oh yeah, we’ll
send you the music. Charlie’s doing all the arrangements.” I said okay. So he sent me the music, and Dot-

22

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

JR: Where was that?
JD: 48th. Still there, 48th between Broadway and
Eighth. Then we drove down and played the Red Hill
Inn for a week. That was a prominent jazz club in those
days. That was in Camden. I don’t know if Camden is
in New Jersey or Philadelphia. I think it is outside of
Philadelphia.
JR: Yeah, it’s in New Jersey, right near Philadelphia.
JD: Oh, okay. Then when we left we went to Buffalo

JR: Wait, you drove straight from Buffalo to L.A.? Oh my goodness.
JD: Yeah. I remember coming into Saint Louis on the
highway and the car started sputtering but it wasn’t
out of gas. There was a gas station, so I sputtered right
into the gas station —barely — and it stops and won’t
start. So I said, “What the hell?” So the guy comes
over and says, “What’s the matter?” I said, “I don’t
know, it just started sputtering.” He said, “Your gas
line is frozen.” Frozen? Yeah, well we had been driving

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

23

Photo courtesy Jerry Dodgion

I don’t know him either! How did that happen?” He says, “Well I called him and said,
‘look I need an alto player who plays a little
flute. Is there anybody you can recommend?’
And he told me, ‘Why don’t you get that guy
from San Francisco. I just heard him on a
record date with Charlie Mariano; he might be
good for your group.’” And [Red] said, “Oh,
what’s his name?” And [Shorty] said, “I don’t
know!” Now if Red hadn’t decided to find out
my name — I guess he called Jimmy Rowles or
Charlie or somebody, and found my name and
number and called me — but if he hadn’t taken
the time to do that, my life… See that record
date with Charlie changed my whole life. Not
necessarily that it’s good or not good: it wasn’t
even released for eight or nine months later, so
it had nothing to do with that, but it was just
timing and luck. So I go to Las Vegas, and it’s
a six-week gig and we keep getting held over
and held over. Occasionally we would go into
L.A. on a night off and do a little TV thing or
something, and it was six months before our
“six-week gig” was over. Then we made a little
tour, my first time to come east. We made a
little tour in cars and Dottie came with me
and we put Dottie’s drums in the Volkswagen
because we knew we were going to play in Detroit. We knew Terry Pollard, who lived there,
and Herman Wright, the bass player. We met
them when they were both with Terry Gibbs
in San Francisco. Terry Gibbs was the guy who
would say, “Hey, you got your horn? Come sit
in.” We played two weeks at Baker’s Keyboard
Lounge, which was a well-known jazz club
in Detroit at that time. I went to hear Yusef
Lateef and Terry Pollard was playing with him.
Eventually we got together and played with
Terry and Herman Wright, and Dottie and me
at Terry’s house, I think. From there, I think
we went to Toronto for two weeks at the Town
Tavern, which was a big club in those days.
Then we went to Rochester for a weekend and 1960 “500 Club” in Altantic City, NJ. Red Norvo Quintet (left to right): Red on
vibes, Jimmy Wyble on guitar, Frank Sinatra, John Markham on drums, Jerry
then down into Manhattan to play the Dave
Dodgion on flute, and Red Wotten on bass.
Garroway TV Show in the early morning. So
that preceded these early morning TV shows.
and played in Buffalo for a week at a restaurant. Then
And you had to get there at five in the morning. We
we had three days to get to L.A. for a TV rehearsal for
stayed at the President Hotel. There were things that I
The Dinah Shore Show, and there was a blizzard! This
had always heard about, my first time in New York. All the stuff, you know, the stuff that stories are made of!
the guys that had been on the road through New York
Dottie and I were driving together and we didn’t check
would say, “You gotta to stay at the President Hotel,
in until we got to Arizona, we checked in just to get to
man.”
sleep for five hours. Anyway, we made it!

JD: Yeah, you gotta play light. So you know when I
heard saxophone players that are playing fast, even
Sonny Stitt, when they are playing fast they aren’t

24

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

JR: The Town Hall…
JD: The Town Hall, I guess, the first one I’d heard.

Gary Smulyan

in a blizzard for hours, days! He
said, “Well you have to put dry gas
in the gas tank.” So he put some
dry gas in the gas tank and put
some in the back where the engine
is and we took off. We were okay
and never had any more trouble,
but I mean if that had happened
in a desolate spot, oh man! Luck,
see? We were blessed with good
luck. Anyway, we got to L.A. and
then we went back to work at The
Sands. At The Sands, we alternated with two other groups and
we worked six hours a night. That
was like midnight until six in the
morning, which is great hours in
Las Vegas because the best time of
the day in Las Vegas is from six in
the morning until noon. Then after
that, it’s too hot to do anything,
so you might as well be sleeping in
air conditioning. So, it was okay.
We got to hang out a lot in the
little coffee shop area there, and
1989 1st Annual World Tour of Three – Gene Harris’ Philip Morris Super Band – Jerry on a camel
the people that were playing the
sight seeing excursion outside of Cairo.
main show, we would meet some
of them. Red knew a lot of people
playing loud. He could really articulate. It was great.
because he was an old timer from part of jazz history,
The only guy that could play really fast and full was
so… Amazing, really amazing. And The Sands was
Johnny Griffin. He was better than anybody; he could
the hippest of the Las Vegas places. For example the
play full tone and articulate. It was unbelievable!
people that played the main room were Louis Armstrong, Dinah Shore, Sammy Davis, Lena Horne, Nat
JR: Fastest tenor in the west!  
King Cole. Really the high level acts. The other places
had like pop and icon funny people. Even the lounges,
JD: Yeah! Man, and then he and Lockjaw together were
there were groups that, you know, they played tromdynamite.
bones from trapezes and stuff like that. That stuff was
going on. But we actually had very musical groups, and JR: I’m curious, by this time who would you say had been your
we played opposite Jackie and Roy for three months at
main influences? Or where were you coming from?
one stretch a couple of times. So, we actually played
there… and then starting into the next year — that
JD: Well, I would say Charlie Parker was my main
was in ’58 — Red said, “Look, we are going to have to
influence definitely. I was starting to hear Cannonball.
change drummers. Can you recommend a drummer?” I
And I always enjoyed Duke Ellington to hear Johnny
said, “There is one drummer I would recommend from
Hodges. Total individual. Just unbelievable! The guys
San Francisco. He plays small group and he plays big
played like no body else. Wow! And I always appreciate
band well too.” He said, “Oh, because we may be dothe tenor players, but I never had any desire to play the
ing some stuff with Frank Sinatra himself and Benny
tenor. Success for me was, when I joined Red Norvo,
Goodman as well.” So I said, “Well, if you can get this
selling my tenor, because to me playing the tenor was
guy…” and I gave him John Markham’s number and he
never good music. It was lousy and painful.
called him and he said yes. So we went to L.A. then
and had a little gig… Now I was with Red for three
JR: I found the liner notes to that album you did with Charlie
years and I always say that Red Norvo was my music
Mariano and the guy writing the liner notes said something about
school because in the three years, we had such a great
in one of your choruses it sounded like you had checked out Phil
variety of stuff to do. The quintet with no piano was
Woods. Had you checked out Phil by that time, or was he sort of
great playing and he played some of my songs and it
just…?
was very enjoyable and challenging. And they could
play fast! I mean really! I could never play that fast. I
JD: Well, I heard him on the radio. I didn’t have any of
learned though that when you play real fast you have
his records. And I thought, I gotta get some records of
to not play very loud.
him and that’s when I started traveling with Red and I
just didn’t get around to it. I had heard the Monk…
JR: You have to play light.

Douglas Purviance

Tommy Flanagan, Jon Faddis, Dizzy and Jerry April 1991. Carnegie Hall Centenial NYC.

And then I had met Pepper Adams at John Marabuto’s house one time. We used to get together and
play. John Marabuto played piano; Eugene Wright was
there because he was — then he was with Brubeck.
And then we’re playing one day — I remember we were
playing in the afternoon — we were playing “Pennies
From Heaven,” and as soon as I finished my chorus, I
hear something. “Holy shit what is that?” and I look
and it is Pepper, and I don’t know him yet, and he is
standing there in his t-shirt and his pajama bottoms
playing “Pennies From Heaven” on the baritone sax
like something I never heard before in my life, ever.
The first time you hear him play it is like…Oh my god,
where did he come from? What is this? That was the
beginning of a long friendship. He was just amazing!
Just amazing!
JR: What year was that?
JD: He was with Stan Kenton, so it was a long time
ago. He did one little tour with Stan Kenton, I think.
Well, it had to be before I went with Red Norvo, so it
had to be ’57… ’56 or ’57. Wow, that’s amazing. Anyway! Where were we… The reason I say Red Norvo was
my music school is because we had so much variety.
When we worked for Frank it was just us and Frank’s
piano player, which made a six-piece group, and we
played for him. Bill Miller was his name, and he had
written out some of the scores, you know, the same
formats, and some of the things, so Red could play
the violin parts, because he could play good with five
mallets or six mallets. So you had a little semblance
of — we would do the war horses… you know, “I’ve
Got You Under My Skin” — of the same kind of things
so the audience would know it and it would sound like
when Frank would sing it. Anyway, during those times,
the house bands were not very good lots of places, and

we ended up doing Frank Sinatra’s personal appearances, playing for him for a year and a half. But it was
not a drag because it wasn’t a lot: he wasn’t working
that much in person and he was doing movies and
stuff then. So we went to Australia with him, that
was my first time to Australia, and we had never been
to Europe yet. We had been to Canada and New York,
and now we are going to Australia for a week. There
was a bootleg of that that came out later. Then Blue
Note eventually bought that. They bought it from Will
Freidwald. I asked Bill Miller, “How are we going to get
paid for this?” He says “I don’t know. I have done everything I can do here in L.A. and I can’t get shit with
it.” I said, “okay,” so I go to the Union in New York
and there was a guy that did that sort of thing working
there and I took him the CD, and he says, “I’ll get on
the case.” A year later, he had gotten stonewalled and
didn’t know what to do. Then I ran into Bob Belden. I
said, “Bob, I am trying to get Red Norvo paid for something we did 20 years ago or 30 years ago now. What
do I do?” So he says, “This guy at the Union, I forget
his name right now, have him call me.” So I told him,
“Look, Bob Belden says call him.” He called him and a
couple of weeks later we get paid. Blue Note is owned
by Capitol. Then I find out that Capitol is the cheapest
record company in the world.
When I am trying to do it on my own, I call Bruce Lundvall of course, because he’s the guy that told me it
was going to be released. “I’ve been listening to you
all day,” he said. “Doing what?” He says, “Playing with
Frank Sinatra.” I said “No shit!” and he said, “Yeah.”
So, I call Bruce and I say, “How do we get paid for
that?” He said, “Ooo. Here, I’ll give you the list — the
name — the phone number of the guy in L.A. who does
that stuff.” So I called him, and I got pissed off. I mean,
he sounded like a 14 year old executive telling me,

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

25

Photo courtesy Jerry Dodgion

“Listen kid, you might as well just forget about
it. You are not getting paid for this, and if you
do get paid it is going to be 1959 scale. So just
go f—.” He almost said, “fuck yourself.” And he
got me really pissed off, and so that is when I
took it to the guy at the union. And it ended up
Bob Belden… I said, “How did you do that?”
He says, “I know where some of the bodies are
buried.” I guess you do! And Red Norvo got
paid before he died. He got paid! And he was so
— oh, it was just great! Just great! Unbelievable.
But I mean, it’s just, for some things you just
have to fight, and it’s so… It has nothing to do
with music. It’s just, everything doesn’t come
to those who wait either; if you don’t fight,
you’re not going to get anything in some situations. But this actually worked. And we didn’t
even know that it was actually being recorded.
And the sound is better than… And Blue Note
— oh, this guy: he has his own system that
makes it magic or something. I forgot his name. Jerry (left) with Frank Wess. Carnegie Hall Jazz Band circa 1995 during a
concert featuring the two Franks, Frank Foster and Frank Wess.
But if you ever see the CD, it says it has been
enhanced by so and so. Jimmy Wyble, the guitar
Benny, we played the Desert Inn, and Charlie Shavers
player called and said, “You know, I listened to the
was the trumpet player, and the trombone player was
CD that’s been enhanced by what’s his name with his
Carl Fontana. It is amazing because I read something
magic shit. What do you think’s going on there?” “I
that Urbie had written recently that named his favorite
don’t know,” I said, “Maybe, he probably charged Blue
trombone players and they were all those guys at that
Note 50 thousand dollars to do that.” And he says,
time when I worked with them. It was really a learn“I compared them.” He says, “The sound is better on
ing experience all the way, it was just unbelievable.
the other one. On the 78. [Laughs] Or on the LP. The
And to have so much variety. And there was no music
12-inch LP or something.” He said, “Red’s vibes don’t
school I could go to then. I got out of high school and
sound as good on that.” And it is some kind of bullshit
went right into the University of California because it
enhancer. When he did it, we were invited over to his
was tuition free, and I did one semester and said, “I’ve
uh… Oh, and he also did it to the Carnegie Hall band.
gotta get out of here. I went in to major in music and
We only did one CD in the studio. The studio was too
I am not going to get any music for a couple of years
small, and it was the Sony 56th Street there, so it was
here, it looks like. And they want me to play in the
not very good. He did his stuff on that one too. He’s a
ROTC band… I don’t want to do that stuff!” And they
hustler. He does fine for himself. [Laughs] That’s so
put me in a sight singing class, and the way they defunny I forgot all about that. Anyway! Where do we go
cided which class to put you in, they asked you to write
from there?
eight bars of The Star Spangled Banner. So I had been
playing in the municipal band, the high school band,
JR: So you were playing with Red?
the National Guard band… I knew how to write eight
bars of The Star Bangled Banner, and I wrote eight bars
JD: Playing with Red. The reason I say he was my muwith a wrong note in it! [Laughs] And I got into sight
sic school is because we had so much variety in music.
singing class with voice majors.
We did four tours with Benny Goodman. The trombone players, just for example. Each time we toured,
JR: Oh no!
we had four horns and Red’s Group plus a piano, and
the four horns were trumpet, tenor, trombone, and
JD: I mean, coming down my row and I am going to
alto. Jack Sheldon did almost all the trumpet tours,
be next and the guy in front of me that sings, and he’s
and the trombone was different on every one. That’s
singing it with vibrato and dynamics and shit, and it
how I remember! The very first tour — we went to
comes to me and I go [growling] “aghghgh ooooooo
Europe and played a little around New York — Bill
aghgh buuuuugh,” and then the person behind me is
Harris was the trombone player and Flip Phillips was
singing. They were voice majors! I thought, “oh man…”
the tenor player. The second tour was the same group
I came from a high school of 2,000 and I go into a colexcept the trombone was Urbie [Green] and we played
lege of 50,000, and so I am scared and I just thought,
a tour of the East Coast and stuff. Then the next tour
“Let me out of here.” And I talked very nicely to my
was to Ciro’s in Hollywood on Sunset Boulevard and
folks, I said “Look, I know you are going to say that
Lake Tahoe, and Murray McEachern was the trombone
you gotta go through with this because it is free…
player on that tour, and he also played the alto sax.
Look how many people want to go here and they can’t
So when we played the theme song, which was usuafford it.” I said, “Okay, I promise you I’ll go back, but
ally trombone lead, he would play his alto. He sounded
I gotta learn music first. I am going to take private leslike Hymie Shertzer. And the fourth time was when
sons and see how I do.” Whew, man. [Laughs] I lucked
we played in Las Vegas, but it wasn’t the Sands. With
out. I really lucked out without a bad scene.

26

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

U

Devil May Care
—for Bob Dorough

Cherry Hill amber moonshine floating
over sassafras meadow in the mist – no one waiting to be kissed
and Texas looking better by the minute.
With a twang like the low string on a national steel
and a Cheshire cat smile that
would light up a bad scene, Mister Gruff and Ready Teddy
slippin’ and slidin’, peepin’ and a-hidin’
brought the hill country downtown and ‘round town,
the word was OUT !

Nothing like you has ever been seen before, they said
and after miles and miles, came Miles, then smiles –
Dorough grin like bathtub gin, bound to last, sure to win,
‘cause feelin’ good just ain’t no sin;
rosin up the bow on the vi-o-lin,
stomp off the tune, put your whole self in !
Lift the glass and signify, sanctify, funkify
the bounce in your step and devil may care
‘cause you ain’t done yet, yeah –
Devil may care ‘cause
you ain’t done yet.

©2011 michael stephans

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

27

Helene Snihur

Bill Holman:
A Master of Jazz Arranging and Composing

By Bill Dobbins

M

y first encounter with Bill
Holman’s arranging occurred
a couple of years before I
even recognized the name. While
in high school, my awareness of big
bands was limited mainly to Count
Basie, Duke Ellington, Gil Evans (including the collaborations with Miles
Davis) and Gerry Mulligan’s Concert
Jazz Band. The Mulligan recording,
which was the debut album of the
band, didn’t credit the arrangers for
the individual tunes. I really loved
all of the arrangements, but I was
especially drawn toward Out Of This
World and I’m Gonna’ Go Fishin’. I
was intrigued by the contrapuntal
writing, the incorporation of bluesy
elements in the melodic content and
the way everything swung so powerfully. Many years later I learned that
these arrangements were written by
Bill Holman.
During the summer of 1964, just
a few weeks after graduating from
high school, I went on tour with a
sacred music group, Thurlow Spurr
and the Spurrlows, which had a vocal
group of about half dozen singers, a
small brass section and a rhythm sec-

28

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

tion. I was the youngest person in the
group, and the bass trombonist, Dave
Ayres, was a Stan Kenton fan. He was
especially high on the Bob Graettinger things such as City of Glass,
but he also had the New Concepts of
Artistry and Rhythm and Contemporary Concepts recordings. He had a
portable phonograph on the road with
him, so I got to listen to some of this
music. With my background in classical music, I found Holman’s “Invention for Guitar and Trumpet” to be an
interesting combination of classical
and jazz elements, and I was naturally
amazed by Maynard Ferguson’s high
register dexterity. It was the arrangements of the standards, however,
that left me completely spellbound.
With What’s New?, Stella by Starlight
and Stompin’ at the Savoy, Holman
had fashioned familiar melodies into
stunning showcases for the Kenton
band and its great soloists. Each of
these arrangements had the sophistication and imagination of an original composition, and convincingly
integrated one or two of Holman’s
own thematic ideas with the familiar
content of the standard song. They
also made use of phrase lengths other
than the usual four-bar or eight-bar
variety, and the formal designs were
usually full of surprises for the attentive listener.
As an undergraduate student at
Kent State University in the mid1960s, some of my fellow music
majors and I put together the first
ongoing big band at that institution
(this was during the days when many
university music schools and conservatories still looked down on jazz). At
some point, photographic copies of
What’s New? and Stella by Starlight
(parts only) came into our possession from a source that I’ve long since
forgotten (this was many years before
the convenience of the Xerox photocopier). Needless to say, these Holman arrangements became the most
often rehearsed and performed in our

repertoire. It was like a dream come
true to attempt to play these masterpieces with our own band.
Since those days, I have enthusiastically followed the music of Bill
Holman, from his writing for some
of the greatest big bands in jazz,
including those of Count Basie, Stan
Kenton, Gerry Mulligan, Woody
Herman, Buddy Rich, Louis Bellson, Maynard Ferguson, and several
European big bands and orchestras,
to his work for many of the greatest
jazz soloists, vocalists and, since the
early 1970s, the Bill Holman Band.
His arrangements and compositions
are also featured on numerous small
group recordings, including those of
Shelly Manne, Shorty Rogers, Richie
Kamuca, Gerry Mulligan, Chet Baker,
Maynard Ferguson, Bill Perkins and
many other world class jazz soloists
and bandleaders. These small group
pieces are much more than the usual
basic orchestrations of a familiar
theme for a few horns and a rhythm
section. In fact, his imaginative use of
the instrumentation and musical content in his small group arrangements
hold my attention more strongly than
many big band recordings I have
heard. Bill Holman is a truly masterful writer, who can weave a spellbinding story of his own in one piece, and
then come up with an equally fascinating personal take on a well known
standard tune in the next.
Some of my most rewarding and
gratifying experiences have been
the opportunities I have had to get
to know and collaborate with my
musical heroes. I first got to know
Bill Holman in 1985 at a jazz workshop in Tübingen, Germany, which
was organized by Hans and Veronika Gruber and Advance Music.
The workshop included well over a
hundred students and about twenty
of the world’s leading jazz musicians
as the faculty, including Louis Smith,
Randy Brecker, Dave Liebman, Bobby
Watson, Sal Nistico, Richie Beirach,

(c)Ray Avery-CTSIMAGES

Bill Holman at Stoller’s Jazz Club,
Long Beach, California, 1954.

John Abercrombie, Rufus Reid, Ron
McClure, Billy Hart and Bill Holman. In addition to small groups and
instrumental master classes there
were two big bands. Bill Holman was
there to direct the first big band and
give a master class on arranging and
composing, and I was there to direct
the second big band and to do a session on arranging and composing for
aspiring writers whose understanding
of jazz was limited or relatively basic.
Because our big bands rehearsed
during the same time period, I wasn’t
able to check out his rehearsals; but I
was all ears during his session on jazz
writing.
It was interesting for me to
learn that Bill Holman was primarily self-taught, although he did take
a few courses at Westlake College of
Music, where he studied commercial
writing with Russ Garcia. It was also
refreshing to hear him talk about
his arrangements, compositions and
the creative process of writing in a
simple, easy to follow manner that
never got bogged down with technical
complexity or pretentious academic
jargon. Before the workshop was over
I also found out that he was a friendly, no nonsense type of person with a
dry and ever alert sense of humor.
I was somewhat surprised when
Holman showed up at my session on
jazz writing. I think he was, in turn,

surprised to find out how deeply I
had gotten into an extended suite he
had written in 1957 for an LP by the
Australian Jazz Quintet. Most of the
session was devoted to an in depth
discussion of this three-movement
work, Jazz in D Minor, and we listened to the 21-minute recording at
the end. I originally bought the LP
in the early 1960s when I was still
a teenager. It quickly became one of
my favorite albums, due primarily to
the great small group writing of Bill
Holman, who wrote all but two of
the tracks. Sometime during the early
1970s my curiosity got the better of
me and I transcribed the entire suite,
determined to find out what was
going on in this very involved but irrepressibly swinging composition that
I never got tired of listening to.
The further I got in my transcription and musical analysis, the more
amazed I became at Holman’s absolute mastery of the basic techniques
of thematic development, counterpoint, reharmonization, orchestration and formal design. Moreover,
it eventually became clear that the
content of the entire piece was developed from just four simple thematic
motives and/or rhythms. And many
of the techniques were the same I had
become familiar with in the greatest classical composers from Bach to
Shostakovich. There were two overarching aspects, however, that really
drove home Holman’s mastery of his
craft. The first was that the two uptempo movements, the first and third,
began with the same 30 measures
as part of an extended introduction
that introduced all four of the principal motives. However, from the 31st
measure onward, Holman developed
two organically related but completely
different pieces of music. The second aspect was that, having begun
the outer movements with extended
introductions, he balanced the whole
suite near its conclusion, with a coda
of more than a hundred measures.
Furthermore, the coda brought back
the most important thematic motives
of all three movements, and each
motive was transformed by a final
brilliant and unexpected twist or turn
that left me in a state of complete
exhilaration every time I listened to
whole piece without interruption.
After my presentation of Jazz in
D Minor at the workshop in Tübin-

gen, Holman remarked that he hadn’t
thought about that piece in quite a
while. He said that, although there
were a few motivic and formal things
that he was aware of, most of the
development and underlying unity
had occurred spontaneously in terms
of where the music seemed to want
to go. He also said that he was rather
amazed at all the intricate development, motivic connections and formal
structure that I had discovered, and
that he had no idea that his pieces
exhibited such a high degree of creative order. He did have a sense for
arrangements and compositions he
had written that “had a good form to
them,” but this came mostly through
how he, as a listener, felt after hearing them played. I wasn’t surprised by
this, because I have long understood
that the rational way of “knowing” is
just one of several paths to knowledge
and understanding. A person with
an exceptional or highly developed
intuition can know precisely, through
direct contact with something, what
might take someone with little intuition years of academic study or the
time consuming and gradual development of aural attention to know.
In July 1989 Rayburn Wright,
the head of the jazz and contemporary media program at the Eastman School of Music and my close
friend and colleague for 16 years, was
diagnosed with a malignant brain
tumor and went on medical leave at
the end of the summer. For 30 years
Ray and Manny Album had taught
and co-directed the legendary threeweek Arrangers Holiday workshop at
Eastman, a unique summer offering
for developing and professional jazz
writers, capped off with a full concert
by an orchestra consisting of the summer personnel of the Eastman Jazz
Ensemble (I had the honor and great
pleasure of playing piano), combined
with winds, percussion and strings
from the Rochester Philharmonic
Orchestra. Ray and Manny directed
this unique ensemble in a program of
music composed and arranged by the
participating student writers and featuring an internationally known guest
soloist (the soloists included the likes
of Duke Ellington, Sarah Vaughn,
Dave Brubeck, J.J. Johnson, Thad
Jones, Gerry Mulligan, Stan Getz, Bob
Brookmeyer, Phil Woods and Marian
McPartland). When Ray realized that

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

29

(c)Woody Woodward-CTSIMAGES

he was not going to be
at Eastman for a whole
able to participate the folweek, with Brookmeyer
lowing year, the first perdirecting the Eastman
son he thought of to join
New Jazz Ensemble (norManny and continue the
mally under the direction
program was Bill Holman.
of Dave Rivello) and HolFortunately for all of us,
man directing the EastHolman agreed, and we
man Studio Orchestra. I
all benefitted enormously
can still feel the vibes in
from his contribution.
the classrooms, rehearsal
From September
room and concert hall
1994 through July 2002
from that week!
my wife, Daralene and I
Immediately followhad the great opportunity
ing the studio orchestra
of residing in Cologne,
concert in 2011 I asked
Germany, where I was the
Holman if anyone had
principal director of the
ever gotten together
WDR Big Band. Apart
with him for a number
from the 12 weeks every
of consecutive days to
year when I was actually Bill Holman directing at the Musicians Union rehearsal hall, Los Angeles
record conversations about
rehearsing the band and circa 1970s.
his life in the music and his
directing concerts, some
ideas about writing. When
much better for big band in that key,
of my most memorable hours were
he said that no one had made such a
especially in putting the climatic
those when Bill Holman was in resirequest up to that time, I immediately
sections in a register where the lead
dence for two weeks, preparing and
got his permission to request some
trumpet could comfortably make a
directing a program of his music with brilliant and powerful sound. The
travel money from the school, and I
guest soloists such as Johnny Griffin,
set up a week during the following
band loved the composition, and the
Charlie Mariano and James Moody. I
August to go out to Los Angeles and
audience gave us a great ovation at
learned a great deal from observing
record a series of conversations about
the end of the performance. I sent
how Holman rehearsed the ensemble
Holman’s early years, his musical caHolman a copy of the concert recordand from discovering which general
reer and his thoughts on composing,
ing, and within a couple of weeks I
aspects or specific details he focused
arranging, musical cohorts and the
got a phone call from him. He really
on in order to get the message of
creative process. While I was in L.A.,
enjoyed the band’s performance and
each piece to come through clearly
my orchestration. He said, “The piece I got together with an old college
and convincingly to the listener. I
friend, saxophonist Rusty Higgins,
really sounded good with all the new
also heard how he wrote the music
who had subbed from time to time in
clothes.”
for each project in a manner that
the Bill Holman Band since moving
In 2002 Daralene and I had an
perfectly suited the musical strengths opportunity to return to the Eastthere in the early 70s. It was during
and personality of the guest soloist,
our dinner conversation that I first
man School just after our son, Evan,
and that took full advantage of the
learned that all of Holman’s friends
had moved back to Rochester from
individual and collective abilities of
call him Willis. By the end of that
New York to get married and start a
the band, which he knew very well
family. Once I knew I was going to be week I got used to calling him Willis,
by that time. Of course, bringing Jeff
too. I’ll always have fond memories
directing the Eastman Jazz Ensemble
Hamilton along to play the drums
of the graciousness with which he
and Eastman Studio Orchestra again,
for each of his guest projects was
and his wife, Nancy, opened up their
I was thrilled at the prospect of getthe perfect icing on the cake. Since
ting Bill Holman back to the Eastman home to me for those conversation
the passing of Mel Lewis, there’s no
sessions.
school as a guest artist.
drummer who better understands
I consider Bill Holman to be one
Since then Bill Holman has viswhat the drums are supposed to do in ited the Eastman school five times,
of the most important jazz arrangers
Holman’s music.
and composers after Duke Ellington’s
and we’re now discussing the next
In 2000 I did a project with
generation. Throughout his career,
visit, to be in February 2016. Every
the WDR Big Band that we called
his personal evolution has always
visit has been a revelation, with a
“Jazz Masterpieces Revisited.” My
maintained a connection to the music
completely different program each
idea was to take jazz compositions
that first took root in him, that of
time, from all recent material to
that had originally been recorded
Count Basie, Lester Young, Duke
retrospectives, plus master classes on
by small groups and reorchestrate
Ellington, Mel Lewis, Zoot Sims and
jazz writing and discussion sessions
them for big band. As soon as this
other jazz giants who have made an
with the students about everything
idea came to me I knew that a big
from the creative process to the music indelible imprint on the music. Willis
band orchestration of Jazz in D Minor business. A particularly special time
has certainly made his own imprint.
had to be the grand finale. The title
His music continues to evolve, while
was February 28 through March 4
was changed to Jazz in G Minor,
always embodying the essence of jazz.
of 2011, when Bob Brookmeyer and
because the melodic content worked
Bill Holman were both in residence

30

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

U

David Liebman

Matt Vashlishan

Smithsonian Institute
NEA Jazz Masters Project:
Bill Kirchner with David Liebman
Part 2

The following is the Smithsonian Institute interview
between Bill Kirchner and David Liebman following his
acceptance of the NEA Jazz Masters Award, and took
place in January of 2011. This interview is incredibly
extensive and is presented here in its entirety via several
installments. This is the second “episode.” If you missed
the first portion, it was printed in the Spring/Summer
2015 Issue.
Bill Kirchner: When you went to college, you went to NYU,
right?
David Liebman: I went first year to Queens College. I stayed. I didn’t want to leave New York, because
of the music. By then I knew that there’s no way to go
anywhere else and still do anything to do with this. I
got into a couple schools. I was on the waiting list at
Brandeis, I remember, and I said to my mother, even
if it comes through, I don’t want to go there. Queens
College, at that point, the major was going to be music.
What else am I going to do? Because, in the back of
your mind – first of all, it was expected of me to go to
college. There was no question about it. The back of
my mind, straight job, real world. Parents, right? Okay,
music teacher, play on the weekends, like my teachers had been, all of them. So, Queens College. A very
good music department, even then, known, really is
well-known, blah blah blah. So I’m living in Brooklyn,
my home, driving in and out, commuting to Queens
College.
Kirchner: Rudi Blesh was teaching at Queens College, right?

Liebman: I don’t remember anybody. I’m a freshman. So I certainly didn’t get close to music. The only
thing I do remember is the first day, the orientation,
they handed us a music major, a list of four years
required listening. It went from Palestrina to Stockhausen. I certainly was not equipped for classical
music at all. This would have – this is like me walking
into a complete new – a foreign country, not knowing
the language. I diligently tried to catch up in the first
semester. I stayed after school in the music library. I
listened for hours to Palestrina, Vivaldi, and all these
– I couldn’t stand it. I’m trying to transcribe Miles and
Trane and whatever, at home. I’m starting to get more
serious about it, because all these events are coming
together at 18 years old. I said, I’m not going to – this
music major shit, that’s not happening. So I switched
to psychology, because in those days, English lit.,
psychology, they were the go-to, when you had nothing
else to do. I don’t know what it is now, but there’s always like, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I’ll major
in that.
That didn’t work. I don’t know how we picked
NYU, but I went to NYU uptown division, University
Heights. It was the arts and science up there. I don’t
know why I went up there, but anyway, it was great.
It was a campus in the middle of the Bronx, off the
Major Deegan highway. Decided I was going to take a
major that’s something I liked. I loved history and was
always very good in it. I was in advanced placement
in high school. I won some contests. I liked American
history. The reason is because I had a great teacher
in high school. In the end, if you have a great teacher,
you probably – that makes you like the subject. He
was Mr. Feldman. He was an amazing teacher. I still
see him now. He was great. I just loved history. So I

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

31

majored in American history and decided that I’m going to have two lives. I’m going to do school. I’m going
to get through school and get my degree, bachelor,
B.S. in this case, bachelor of science, and I’m going to
live downtown when I don’t have to be in school. So
that was the beginning of two lives, 19, 20, 21, Charles
Lloyd, that whole thing. This is that period.
Kirchner: When you were in college, who were the peers in
your peer group that you were playing with at that time, besides
Moses?
Liebman: Moses. This is just about – not yet. I’m
not meeting [Steve] Grossman and those guys yet. No,
I am, because he was 16 and I’m 20, 21, through Mike
Garson, who went into the Army and then found guys
were playing. There was a guy named Jimmy. He played
like Elvin.
Kirchner: Strassburg?
Liebman: No, not Jimmy Strassburg. I’ll talk about
that. The guy lived out on Long Island. I forget his
last name. A piano player, Larry Schubert. Completely
disappeared. He played like McCoy. Lanny Fields was
the bass player. I think he’s still up in the Catskills.
And Grossman. It was a little crew. Eventually Lenny
White and this whole thing. That’s where I met George
Cables and Lenny. This was all Queens guys, a little
crew. Steve lived in Queens then, on Long Island. They
were the people that I started associating with, besides Moses, going downtown and playing with Moses.
That was another circle, Jim Pepper, those guys. That
was a different thing. And also some of the free guys.
So there’s these two communities that I was trying to
hang with, get on with.
In certain ways Steve was my first guy – Steve
could really play, because he was great at 16. He was
already good. I was seeking jam sessions, playing.
Even in high school, I had already played at hospitals
and whatever. My mother had always set up concerts.
I played at Bellevue. I did all that stuff. So any time
there was a concert at NYU, I always had a concert.
Larry Coryell through Moses, Jim Pepper through Moses. Then the other side was this Grossman crew and
all those people. So these were two cliques that I was
circulating in.
Kirchner: When did you start playing with Pete LaRoca’s
band.
Liebman: Pete is ’69, through Moses again. Moses
heard from Swallow that they were looking for a saxophone player, and Pepper couldn’t make it, because I
guess he was up for it. I don’t know who told me, if it
was Swallow. I had met Swallow through Moses. That’s
right, because me and Swallow go back with Moses
to before Pete. He said “We’re playing in my house,”
so-and-so, “Come, and we’ll hear you play.” It was on
19th, 20th, or 18th and Ninth Avenue, a brownstone.
I remember it. That’s where Steve was living. It was
Chick [Corea], Steve, and Pete. I walked in and set up.
He said, “What do you want to play?” First time I’d

32

The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

met Pete. I’d seen Pete with Charles, but I didn’t know
him. I said, Softly as a Morning Sunrise. We played like
eight bars. He stopped. He said, “Let’s rehearse.” That
was the beginning of my time with him, ’69, which was
very important for me, because he was the first mentor
I really had.
Kirchner: Let’s talk more about that.
Liebman: Pete, when I talk about Pete, I always go
like this [Liebman exhales], with a sign of resignation.
He’s still alive.
Kirchner: He’s still playing.
Liebman: Not really, unfortunately. That’s the
sadness of it all. Brilliant cat, smartest guy probably
I’ve ever met, almost too smart. Became a lawyer. It’s
more – he’s got a whole story. But anyway, he was – the
band was every bass player and every piano player in
New York, and me, because I could see, this was it. As
soon as I got with him, I could see, this is a heavy guy.
I didn’t really know him. I knew he’d been with Trane.
I knew the story, etc., etc., but I really didn’t know how
he played until he played. It was magical, and with
Chick and him and Swallow, the rhythm section, it
was unbelievable. I have tapes of it. It’s still unbelievable. We’re playing tunes – not standards, maybe one
or two standards, but everything was Pete’s music.
Chick would play Straight Up and Down, play a couple
tunes like that. Normal tunes, but these guys, what
they could do with time and changes. Steve’s on an upright bass, and sometimes Dave Holland, who had just
come over and hadn’t met anyone, before he was with
Miles. George Cables, JoAnne Brackeen, Jimmy Garrison, [Charlie] Haden, Larry Willis. Everybody came
through, because what happened is, we took a gig at a
club called La Boheme. Do you remember La Boheme?
Kirchner: Yeah.
Liebman: 69th and Broadway. $5 a night. I mean,
$5 a night. Pete became – I don’t know if it was the
house band or what, because Jimmy Lovelace used to
play there a lot. He used to go up and jam there a lot.
Anyway, we worked there somehow for six months. I
don’t know if it was every night or every week, but we
worked a lot there, and it was an ever-changing cast of
bass and piano players, because, you know, a $5 gig.
But I was there every night. I was there. That’s when
I’m out of school already. I’m substitute teaching to
make a living. Pete was – he was magical. He was the
best drummer – he was among the best musicians I’ve
ever known. Unfortunately he’s not playing. He could
be playing. Over the years – to digress, over the years,
he would come out. In the ’80s we played a little. I’m
sure you saw it, because there was some press about
him.
Kirchner: You even did a record, right?
Liebman: Did a record. Then he would go back
in his hole and did his law thing. He’s retired. I don’t
know what he does now. I was supposed to play with

him a couple months. He’s a problem child. I don’t
know how to explain it. With all due respect, he’s just
a very obstinate and difficult person, not socially or
anything like that. Just, he’s a perfectionist, idealist.
I’ve never met a more – what’s the word? – frustrating
personality who you just absolutely love and respect.
Anytime I’m with Swallow, we talk about it. It’s the
same. This is just his persona. But he was a great
teacher and an incredible drummer. This guy – that’s
why I wish he was playing, because I wish drummers
could hear him, because nobody ever played like this
guy. He’s probably the greatest of all time, so slippery,
so loose, so natural, so musical. He could sing anything. He would sing the bass parts. He would sing the
melody. It’s the first time I ever understood what it was
to really phrase, because he would say, I’m the only
one. So he would sing the melody to me, of the tune. It
would be his tune, or whatever. He’d say, “Like this,”
and he would put these little nuances to it, like everything you would ever want to play, and make it swing
and feel so great, just singing it to you. I said, “God,
Pete, I can’t . . .” – “No, no, no, just” [Liebman hums].
I said, “I can’t play like this.” “Just listen.” He was very
cool with me. He was, of course, because he was my
first, and I’m completely a basket case of nervousness
and not-good-enough-ness and all that stuff, never feeling I was good enough, getting off the stage with these
guys and trying to get up the nerve to come back the
next night. He was cool with me. I’ve got to say, he was
patient with me, because he could see I wasn’t out of
my mind. He said, “You wouldn’t be here if you weren’t
doing it.” I learned something, that, which is, you’re
not going to get gold stars. It’s not the second grade. If
they don’t give you a demerit, you’re in. If they don’t
fire you, you’re in. If you expect them to say, “You’re
the greatest thing since apple pie,” you’re in the wrong
place. I was used to getting, “You’re good.” You say,
“I’m great.” The guy didn’t say nothing to me. So I was
always going home feeling frustrated. This is simple
communication, but those days – not those days – in
general, you don’t talk to musicians like that. They’re
not your friends. You don’t say, “Do I sound good,
man?” You just got to go home and wonder.
Kirchner: What’s the musicians’ joke?: “You sound great.
How do I sound?”
Liebman: There’s no reality there. So you’re guessing everything, and you’re not good enough to know.
You’re young. Nobody knows who you are. And you’re
up there with the heaviest guys on the planet, and Sonny Rollins is walking in. I’m out of it. But he – until he
decided to give it up – what happened was, we played
the [Village] Vanguard. We played Thanksgiving weekend. This is 1969. It’s the first time I played the Vanguard, and it was Chick and Swallow. We played three
nights. I don’t know how it was a split booking, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday – four nights – opposite
Novella Nelson, who I don’t think I ever heard of since,
two bands.
Kirchner: Yes, you did.
Liebman: Did I? Singer, right?

Kirchner: Singer. I’ll tell you this later.
Liebman: She became somebody else? I don’t know.
Kirchner: No, she became – she’s an actress.
Liebman: She’s an actress?
Kirchner: Yeah.
Liebman: I only remember her name. That’s all.
We were opposite her. We played those four nights,
and Pete, who had been gunning for this gig, bothering
Max [Gordon]. “We going to be playing the Vanguard.
We’re going to be playing the Vanguard.” Max finally
gave him a gig. Then, the night after, he says, “I’m
finished.” He says, “That’s it. They don’t want me back.
I’m not playing anymore. I’m going to become a lawyer.” I said, “What?” And sure enough, the year later I
saw the guy at NYU. He had books up to the ceiling.
Kirchner: As I heard it, he was driving a cab for a living.
Liebman: He was driving a taxi. Yeah, that’s what
he was doing. He said, “I don’t want to work.” He
wouldn’t be a sideman. He had decided – this is what
I mean by his obstinance. Herbie [Hancock] wanted
him, when Herbie did Speak Like a Child. He wouldn’t
do it. He said, “I don’t want to play anything but 4/4.”
He’s very – what’s the word? – he wants it the way he
wants it.
Kirchner: Doctrinaire?
Liebman: Very doctrinaire, and even now, when
I want him to play – this gig that was supposed to
happen a couple – it was supposed to be this spring,
with [John] Abercrombie. “I’m not playing any eighth
notes.” I said, “Okay, Pete.” So, very doctrinaire is
the word. For whatever, he wouldn’t be a sideman.
He wouldn’t do anything. He was only going to be a
bandleader and didn’t meet with success. I don’t know
what happened. He became a lawyer. He became – in
some things, he was my lawyer over these next – what?
– 30, 40 years, until he retired. Very frustrating, but,
to finish this part of the story, he is definitely my first
jazz mentor, no question about it, outside of friends
and things we’ve been discussing, peers or older peers.
He’s the first heavy guy that I was with on any kind
of basis that imparted knowledge to me, both verbally
and musically, because he was verbal. He was very,
very intelligent. He also introduced me to the Sufis.
He was into the Aranchia. This guy was – he was the
smartest guy. He was a great lawyer, because he was so
clever and so good with words. I love the cat. He’s why
I’m here, really.
Kirchner: You know his one Blue Note album, right? Basra.
Liebman: Oh, yeah. Of course. We played Turkish
with him, Turkish Women at the Bath, and we played
Eider Down. We played those tunes. He was some musician.
To be continued . . .

U

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

33

Readers, please take NOTE

Pennsylvania Jazz Collective:

Improving the future through arts education.
The Pennsylvania Jazz Collective is a Lehigh Valley Pennsylvania 501 (c) 3 non-profit, non-stock company, organized exclusively for educational and charitable purposes,
more specifically to foster jazz appreciation through a
regular series of educational initiatives, public performances, and special programs.
“PA Jazz focuses on the musical communication that is at
the core of jazz, which is an expression of individuality
and the spontaneous artistic language spoken within the
context of a democratic framework. We are cognizant that
jazz performers and students draw upon multiple educational and social disciplines to simultaneously interact in
a manner that uniquely ties together many educational
disciplines and learning domains.”
www.pajazzcollective.org

Big Band Night at the Deer Head Inn!

Join the COTA Festival Orchestra under the direction of
Matt Vashlishan the last Monday of every month at the
Deer Head Inn for a great evening of big band jazz. Each
month the ensemble performs original and arranged
music from throughout jazz history as well as modern
compositions by many composers and arrangers.
7:30 – 10:30 p.m., $10.
For more information visit www.deerheadinn.com

Contributors & Acknowledgements
For additional information about contributors to this issue of The NOTE, you can visit their websites:
Su Terry: www.sueterry.net
Larry Fink: www.larryfinkphotography.com
Michael Stephans: www.michaelstephans.com
David Liebman: www.daveliebman.com
Jay Rattman: www.jayrattman.com
Special thanks to;
Marcia Welsh, Ph.D., Brenda Friday, Ph.D., and Leslie Berger for showing their support for the Al Cohn Memorial
Jazz Collection and giving me the opportunity to continue to bring you this publication; Cynthia Sesso at CTS Images
for the use of their photos, Su Terry for her courage and willingness to take on the job; Bob Weidner and Larry Fink
and all of the ACMJC contributors for their spectacular photographs; Erica Golaszewski, Lauren Chamberlain, and
Jay Rattman for the help with the articles; Dave Liebman for his advice and continued support; Bill Dobbins for a rekindled working relationship and interest in everything that goes on at the ACMJC and the Pocono Jazz world; Charles
de Bourbon for the graphic design, and the ESU Staff for making this publication possible.

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The NOTE • Fall / Winter 2016

Fall / Winter 2016 • The NOTE

35

Al Cohn from the ACMJC photo archives