f

J

I
I
SRU ORAL HISTORY

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I

"SLIPPERY ROCK UNIVERSITY IN THE SIXTIES"
INTERVIEWEE:

MR. STANLEY KENDZIORSKI

INTERVIEWERS: DR. JOSEPH RIGGS AND LEAH M. BROWN
20 OCTOBER 1993

R:

This is Joe Riggs.

B:

This is Leah Brown.

R:

The fellow across the table from us is Stanley Kendziorski,
director of International studies at Slippery Rock University.
This is an interview for our oral history collection on
October 20, 1993.
We'd

like

to

launch this

with

the

how did you get

here

question.
K:

How did I get here to the University? Well, going on 26 years
ago is when it all happened. I was fortunate enough to be at
the right place at the right time. I was studying at the
University of Buffalo with Doug Clinger and Rod Oberlin who
were here at the time on the coaching staff, and met them, and
during that summer a vacancy became available on the football
staff and I was fortunate enough to have an interview, and
appointed to the position as assistant football coach, and
teaching in the then physical education department.

R:

So that was 1967?

K:

That was 1968. August of 1968.

R:

And helped launched the championship year?

K:

Well, part of it.

-2-

R:

We're going to jump ahead to what you are doing now to make
sure we get to that. I was here for a long time, and we were
getting

some

students

from

other

countries

kind

of

interrnittenly. How did that all evolve into what we have now?
K:

I think it goes back to the early 1970's with Don Megnin who's
professor of Government and Political Science today. Don and
I

think several other interested faculty members on campus

began to see the need to internationalize the campus. One of
the first ways they looked at was to bring international
students here in an organized fashion.

Don Megnin was the

first director of international programs at Slippery Rock
from, I can't give you the exact date in which Don did begin
his duties. However, I will tell you that Don wrote a very
extensive history of the origins of international studies at
Slippery Rock in which he gave to me about two months ago and
I have turned that over to the Archives. So there is Don's
written record of the evolution. The numbers were initially
small as far as international students corning here and stayed
that way until the rnid-1980's. Internationalism on our campus
was fragmented as it still is I must say on most campuses in
the country unless you're at very large schools. By fragmented
I mean the admissions people really didn't want to do it, but
because they are admissions they had to admit. Then you would
find someone who was given some release time to be their
advisor. Then there might be someone else who had an interest
in trying to help Americans to go overseas to be "study

-3-

K:

abroad". And that's kind of the way it was. Don kind of tried
to juggle it all. And Don was the director through 1980 or
1981.

I

fortunate

forget.
to

be

It

shows

appointed

the

loss

in

1981

of

memory,

succeeding

but
Don.

I

was
When

President Aebersold was the acting vice-president for Academic
Affairs, and with his appointment there began to be some, I
think, some real support. It internationalized the campus. He
had no idea specifically what we needed to do other than the
fact he said, we must start. And we were then given a budget
as any other group on campus and then we saw some growth. We
began to do some active recruiting on international students.
The numbers rose. The exact figures I can't give you off hand
but they are in the Archives. All of our annual reports. Every
one of our annual reports since 1981 has been placed in the
Archives.

We

were

dealing

with

25

to

35

international

students, and basically sending very, very few Slippery Rock
students overseas. The overseas program basically consisted
of sending students to an organization that all the state
schools were a part off. It was called the PCIE, and they
were basically summer programs. In Salzberg and I think there
was one in Oxford, and then when Dr. Aebersold was appointed
President and began to search for his Provost, he made the
comment that that person will have international experience
because we need to do more, and then the real committment
came, I think, in about 1985 to really move forward. we were
given permission to bring in an outside consultant to review

-4-

K:

everything that we're doing to give us some direction. We were
able to convince the administration that it would be in the
best interest not only of their goals to internationalize the
campus, but also from a cost point of view to take an
centralize everything. To bring everything under one roof so
to speak.

So therefore in 1987, Pam Frigot, who had been in

the admissions office doing the international admissions, was
brought into our office as a full-time employee. Strictly to
handle not only the international admissions, but she is still
the international student advisor which makes us very unique
in

the

state

system

because

she

is

the

only

full-time

international student advisor in the state system. With that
there also came a committment to increase the number of
American students to study overseas, and then also to take
and provide opportunities for faculty to study overseas. And
those our three major objectives of the international studies
program.

To

bring

international

students

here,

to

send

Americans overseas, and to send our faculty overseas and bring
international faculty here. Dr. Foust, the current Provost,
has extensive background in international studies and so
therefore that I think was another major committment, and
a real tremendous growth has taken place since his appointment. He has been extremely supportive. To a point where I
think if you look at the numbers. Today we have 236 international students from 68 different countries studying at
Slippery Rock. The goal here is not to have numbers, the

-5-

K:

goal is cultural diversity, and we really would like a 100
countries represented. So we are searching and working very
hard to diversify, and if, I think, you look at schools
across the country, 68 nations respresented is a large
number. Many schools have far more students, but you may
find they may be 100 from one country, and we have opted
not to go that route. We've opted for the diversity. We're
right up front with the students. We tell them they're here
for two basic reasons. The second reason is to obtain a
good education. The first reason we want them here is to
educate us. That is why the international students have to
live their first year in a residence hall. They have to have
an American roommate, and they are not all in one residence
hall as some schools do. It would be much more convenient for
us from a logistical or administrative point if we put everybody in one residence hall, but then they're only educating
themselves. Our goal is to have them educate the American
students. Pam has done an excellent job of recruiting and
working

with

those

students.

We

have

an

extremely

low

attrition rate. If we have two students a year or transfer
out of here, and it's usually due to program that they have
to transfer. As far as the Americans going overseas currently
we have moved from those one or two summer programs in the
early eighties to today we have 28 different programs in 17
countries, and we are currently exploring about three more
programs. If we can finalize the last three programs, we will

-6-

K:

have just about every major on the campus covered. So almost
any student at Slippery Rock can study overseas in his or her
discipline. If all goes as we think it will for this current
academic year, 1993-94, we will have close to 300 American
students studying overseas. Whereas if you go back to 1982 or
so, I think it was something like 17 that studied overseas. So
there's been a real committment to that end.

B:

By studying overseas, you mean for a semester. You don't mean
for these three week summer programs.

K:

It means everything, Leah. For example, we still have the
summer programs. We run our own today. We don't work with
a consortium. We will send students in the summer really any
where a faculty member wants to develop a program. We
traditionally still go to Dublin, Ireland, to Edinborough
Scotland, to Salzberg, Austria and to Russia as Professor
Tichy has done for the last almost 20 years, but if a faculty
member comes

in and says,

I

would like to take a group

somewhere as Professor Nichols did in the summer of 1993 to
Turkey. We worked with him and put together a program and
he took 21 people to Turkey for almost three weeks. We have
a faculty member right now who would like to take a group
of students to Pakistan this summer. If we can work it out,
we'll work it so it can happen. The other programs we have
in length in the summer we send business interns to the

u.

K.

These are very unique programs in that the students are paid
to work for multi-national corporations and they earn any-

-7-

K:

where from nine to twelve hours of academic credit. This has
become an extremely successful program in that it is very
competive for the eight to ten postions that we have we'll
have 50 applicants. The student doesn't even apply unless
they're a three point student and we have the problem of
selection. Professor Phil Kennedy in accounting coordinates
that program for us and supervises it. We also have an eight
week student teaching program. Two of them in fact. In the
fall, we will send students to Dublin, Ireland where they will
teach

in

Irish public

schools

and

live with

Irish

host

families. So they're not only having a very unique educational
experience, but a truly unique cultural experience. In the
spring we will send our student teachers to Mexico City.
There they teach at the American International School and it
truly is an international school because forty percent of the
students are American, fifty percent are Mexican and the other
ten percent are made up of students from around the world. So
our students get a very unique experience in Mexico. We also
have

some

programs

that

we're

working

on

for

the

non-

traditional student. We now will send early childhood majors
to Mexico City for three weeks in May to do an early childhood
practicum. Many of these people are married with family and
to go overseas for eight weeks or a semester obviously
impossible, but we have found that they are very receptive
for three weeks in Mexico, and it's an incredible early
childhood center that we're associated with and so they have

-8-

K:

a very, very unique experience. Starting in 1995, we were
going in 1994, but 1995 now, we will do a two-week business
seminar in London for business majors which is going to allow
students to interface with CEOs multinational corporations.
And then we have the traditional semester or an academic
year programs. So what we try to provide is a variety. Another
new program or short term, Dr. John Craig who is head of the
Honors Program, we've worked with him and this March during
our spring break will be the first group, but we hope to make
this an annual, he will take honors students for two weeks to
non-western European cultures. We're going to start this
March.

We're

going

to

Slovakia

to

expose

those

gifted

students, those honor students, to eastern Europe. We hope
to follow that up by taking a group to Turkey. So we're trying
to do some different unique kind of programming for our
students. A real major thrust for us has been to move from the
traditional base of overseas study for Americans which was
western Europe to move out of western Europe. That doesn't
mean we're going to forget western Europe. I mean it's still
very popular, and it will always continue to be, but we're
trying to move more into eastern Europe. We now have students
studying in Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, and this February 3
we'll leave for Russia. We also are working to send more of
our students to the Orient. We now have exchange programs in
Japan, in China, in Korea, and now also we now teach
languages which I think is a real compliment to Slippery Rock

-9-

K:

because not many schools in the United States teach Korean,
Chinese, and Japanese. Everybody is trying to get on the band
wagon for Japanese. We've been teaching Japanese since 1987,
but we

also

teach Chinese

and

Korean.

The

University

of

Pittsburgh, for example, does not teach Korean. You can't take
Korean at Pittsburgh. So not only are we having students
enrolled in those courses here at Slippery Rock, we're
actually sending students to those countries for a semester or
a

year.

The

numbers

are

small.

I

think

this

year

we' 11

probably have twelve students, but I would dare say that's
twelve more than most schools in the United States have going
to that part of the world. So we really have tried to cover
the

globe

for

overseas

study opportunities,

and then

for

faculty we now have opportunities galore for faculty. In fact,
last academic year 61 faculty were supported in some way to
go overseas whether they represented us on an exchange
program, whether they supervised student teachers or interns,
taught a summer course, presented papers at conferences or
were sent overseas to help develop a new program because we
honestly believe that the program will only survive if there
is faculty involvement. So, therefore, I rarely put a program
together. I will work with a faculty or a department to put
it together because they're the ones that have to sell it.
They're the ones who have to indicate to their students that
this is what you should be doing for your career goals and we
pay for it, and we send them at our expense when we send these

-10-

K:

faculty. The faculty are really buying into it, not only,
obviously, for themselves, but so they have an opportunity to
internationalize themselves and their discipline, but they
have been extremely supportive, encouraging, our students to
move out and see that there is more to the world than western
Pennsylvania.

B:

How did it happen that you came into International Studies in
the first place?

K:

I

was

very

fortunate

in

1976

to

have

been

granted

a

sabbatical. And at my academic appointment was and still is in
Allied Health department and I was teaching a course in human
sexuality,

and was granted a sabbatical to study the K-12

human sexuality program in Stockholm, Sweden, and I was at the
University of Stockholm. I guess I got the international bug
at that time, and then when Don Megnin decided that he wanted
to do other things, as I said I happened to be at the right
place at the right time again.
B:

And one of your goals is to have these international students
educate the American students. Have you had some feedback
from the American students?

K:

Oh, I get all kinds of feedback. Most of it obviously is
indirect. For example, a young lady came in yesterday. She
said she needed some help because she wants to take her
American roommate to Brazil because she's Brazilian for
Christmas. They're going home. We see all kinds of
friendships. Also yesterday, we have one of the first

-11-

K:

group of Black South Africans here. We're in a program
that was initiated by Harvard and Brown Universities and
we have two South Africans here this year. The program
representatives came in from New York yesterday and were
talking to the students, and the young lady that is here,
the undergraduate student, was telling about her experiences
going home already with her roommate and going out to
dinner in Pittsburgh with her parents. These kinds of things.
So that's education. Maybe it's not in the formal sense, but
what we see are friendships that have developed, marriages
that have taken place. We see Americans coming into the office
and saying I want to study overseas, and one of the reasons
_______ . Well, you know I've gotten to know so and so,
and I'm beginning to see that there is more to life than
western Pennsylvania, and I think it's going to help me in
the job market if I have an overseas experience. Then we see
increased numbers of Americans becoming involved in the
Internations Club. It's not the sole ownership of the
international students. They're becoming involved. So we
see the educational process. I think faculty could address
that even better. Simply because if you have somebody from
South Africa in one of your political science classes, wow,
what first hand knowledge that they can bring forth into a
discussion that would never have taken place. I'll never
forget the Afghan freedom fighter that we had here on a
special program. Both of them have completed their degrees,

-12-

K:

and have gone back. One of them is coming back for his
master's in January, but a faculty member calling and
saying, what an incredible class we just had because of
these two young men telling about what it's like to be

a _ _ _ _ . You can't learn that out of a textbook, and
so not only was it one on one education, those young
men educated all those students in those classes that they
interacted with. I think we see a lot of that. It must
be working simply because faculty now call us and say, if
you have an international student, put him in my class.
Don't even fill out the drop and add card, if the class
is closed, override the computer. We have a number of
faculty who literally call Pam and say, when you're
scheduling put those kids in my class because of what
they add to the class.
R:

I know they were great in speech classes because generally
we don't tie people to topics, and when you get an
international student then they are the topic. Their
country and their customs, and of course if you're doing
a discussion about health care, they can bring a lot to
health care.

B:

They're particularly good in classes because they're very
good students. They're articulate. They're bright. They're
outgoing, or they wouldn't have come here in the first place.

K:

Sure you think of somebody who we all know what it's like to
see the new freshmen coming in from Pittsburgh in a daze.

K:

Coming from sixty miles away, and going away from home for the
first time.

Imagine the amount of maturity that has to be

there, and self-confidence, independence, to pick up and come
half-way or three quarters of the way around the world to
western Pennsylvania.
R:

Then they have to learn our language. Not just English, I mean
western Pennsylvania.

K:

That's very, very true. Yes.

B:

Although they do come, or the one's I have encountered, do
come with some English.

K:

Oh,

we require,

yes,

they must take what is known as the

test of the English language preficiency before they come, and
we use a minimum score of five hundred, and we have found that
students who have a score of five hundred can survive in the
academic classroom. They struggle many of them particularly
those

coming

from

the

Orient,

will

struggle

the

first

semester. As you mentioned, learning western Pennsylvania
English, and all the idioms, and all the slang that is thrown
about. But because of their work ethic this is a common
scenario. About the third, fourth week of class typically
three or four professors will call and say, boy, I'm really
worried about so and so from Japan or from wherever, I just
think the language is just not coming. The barrier is there.
They're

just struggling,

and

so we

try working with the

student, and we tell the professor that I pretty much can
guarantee you that by the end of this semester you will see

-14-

K:

a changed person, and more often than not what happens the
phone call comes back and says, this is our star. A lot of
it is that work ethic. They will work so hard to improve that
English. And again I think that's a very positive comment
about _ _ __ the faculty. They care. I mean they could just
as easily write that student off, but they take the time to
call the office, and say, I'm worried about so and so. That's
where I think it's made our job so easy because the faculty
do get involved. The faculty really do care.

B:

So you schedule, you and Pam, schedule these students?

K:

Only the first. When they come here, and they say they are
going to be a computer science major, we will try to get
them one, maximum of two courses in their major, and then if
their

now

in

Liberal

Studies

we

work

in

those

kinds

of

courses, and then from the second semester on they go into
the mainstream. They are into the department. They have their
own academic advisor. They are part of the system. That's also
a lot of ... it isn't fun when we're doing it, but after it's
all over we can laugh. These students come, and they look at
their schedule. But I'm a biology major and you only have me
in one biology class. Why am I taking a speech class? Why am
I taking an art class? I am not an art major. I am a biology
major. So that's part of the educational process to show what
we mean by we want the well rounded individual. We don't want
just somebody who knows how to punch the keys on the computer,
we want you to be able to discuss art. We want you to be able

-15-

K:

to discuss music. We want you to be able to get in front of
a crowd, and make your presentation about computers.

R:

They're kind of trade schools then.

K:

They're universities. Oh, this is university level.

R:

They just don't do a liberal arts theme?

K:

No. That should have been don on the secondary school level.
That's what they tell us. But they're very interesting people.
We get some incredibly interesting people.

R:

It wasn't always that way. I remember when then Iraqi students
came fifteen years ago.

K:

Thank God I was not involved in those years.

R:

I had them all in class, and I also was a thesis advisor on
a phys. ed.

K:

Yes.

R:

And we had wild times believe me.

K:

Well, that was all part of this fragmentation.

R:

Ray Owens was ...

K:

And this is now we, Pam scrutinizes everyone of them. That's
why we have the

to protect faculty from

that. I mean otherwise an inordinate amount of time is put
into two or three students that shouldn't be.
B:

We had some interesting experiences here in Library. Of course
a lot of them like to work in the library, but with those
Iragi students the cultural really got in the way. They will
not take orders from a woman. So that even the simplest
direction of how you perform some duty had to be done by a

-16-

B:

man. We learned a lot, and we didn't change their behavior
a whole lot but I suppose eventually it worked out.

K:

We still run into some of that. There's a student here right
now from the Middle East who is very polite, but let it be
known right on the first encounter that he cannot shake Pam's
hand because she is a woman. Very polite, very nice, but he
says that's my culture.

R:

And we can accomodate that?

K:

Oh,

by

all

means.

We

sure

don't

want

the

international

students to come to become Americanized. Unfortunately, some
do. But we don't want them to become Americanized.
R:

Do a lot of them do jobs on the campus?

K:

Oh, yes. Again we're very fortunate in that the administration ... they can legally work on campus. There's no
problem with that immigration wise, but obviously you have to
have an administration that says they can work. Now we don't
find them jobs, they are on their own just as the student from
Pittsburgh has to find his or her own job. But I think their
overall record is such that again employers on campus want
them. They're here for weekends. They're not going to go
home. They're dependable. You know they're going to be here
on the weekend or ten o'clock in the computer lab so they
do find jobs.

R:

Are they from a particular economic group from their
country?

K:

It runs the gamut. We have diplomatic children here. we have

-17-

K:

ambassadors children. We have students who are here who are
incredibly poor and how they survive is beyond me, but they
do. We had a young lady who supposedly was to have support,
an African woman, and then once she got here her sponsor just
walked away, and to show you the work ethic. She went this
past summer to Alaska and worked on those fishing boats out
in the Bering Straits. Twelve, fourteen hours a day in order
to come back here to finish her degree. I mean some of the
things that some of these students do in order to stay. So
we have the whole gamut. We really do. Some are well off, and
we have those that you just wonder if they are eating.

R:

Was her story in the Rocket?

K:

No, she didn't want it. She's just that type of a person
that is very, very quite about it. She's just an incredible
woman.

B:

How about their acceptance in the Slippery Rock community?
I remember stories about a student who was trying to get a
job in the supermarket, and others were hired and he was not,
and it was not pleasant.

K:

Oh, I think Slippery Rock is probably no different than any
other community. Sure we have discrimination. We're not that
naive. One of the very first things we tell them is that what
won't be tolerated on this campus. We tell them for their own
little personal problems Pam and I can't solve them. They're
human beings they have to learn to solve many of their own
little personal problems, but we expect and demand that if

-18-

K:

in any way shape or form they think that they have been
discriminated against because of their color, because of
their religion, or from the country that they're from we
want to know about that immediately, and we will pursue it
to the utmost. And we do have students come in, and we
pursue it. If they're having trouble with a boyfriend or
girlfriend, well, sorry, I can't help you get a date, but
on those matters we're very concerned about. We've had
some instances where students have been ripped off by
landlords, and so we'll step in, but I really think on the
whole we're seeing an improvement on that simply because
we have been able to work the last two years to improve the
weakest part of our program and that has been community
outreach. We now have host families which we have never
had before. I shouldn't say that. We've always had host
families here that Pam and I never knew about. Where this
faculty member, this secretary, this person from maintenance
has taken an international student into their home. We
still don't know about it, and that's fine. We don't have
to know about those things, but now we've been able to
organize a more formal host family, and we work with one
of the churches here in town and also one in Butler, and
both of these groups are not trying to spread their
religion. They just love to take these students into their
homes and provide them with an exposure to America. so with
that I think we're seeing fewer problems. In another very

-19-

K:

concsious decision that was made here was not to bring in
fifty, sixty students from one country because we are a
small town, and human beings being what they are the students
would take and congregate. They would form little pockets
within the community which in turn would have the community
going at them. As happens in other institutions. So we
deliberately try to keep the number around ten or twelve from
a country so that we don't have these kinds of problems
that you're alluding to. But I think the community there has
been so much on everything the University has been doing the
last three or four years to tell the community, and by the
community I mena more than just Slippery Rock, that this is
an international institution. All our publications that go
out of here today emphasize that fact. Homecoming last week
or two weeks ago, the theme was international. So I think
it's becoming a part of the community that you will see
people dressed differently. You will see and hear accents,
but those are very positive aspects for a community. We
don't see as much as we did three or four years ago, and
again I think that's a positive commentary and the community.
There will always be discrimination. We'll never get rid
of that.

R:

And Rotary of course has been bringing international kids in
here for thirty years.

K:

To the high school. They have a very long history. So the
public school has students.

And I also have to say the public

-20-

K:

school system has been very, very good to us in that when we
bring our international faculty here some come with family,
and

their

children

enroll

in

the

Slippery

Rock

School

District, and some of those children come here without one
word

of

English,

and

the

school

system

has

been

very

supportive. They go home those children, that have no
time to learn a language, fluent in English.
Our goal here at Slippery Rock is to have ten percent of
the Slippery Rock students every year overseas. That's
what we'd like to have. And we're doing, I think, some unique
things. Again that's because the administration is allowing
it. Every Slippery Rock student who goes overseas, not only
can use every single penny of their financial aid that the
University grants, but we now are paying part of their air
fare to go overseas. For Europe this year, we're paying
two hundred dollars. I think next year that will go up to
between two hundred and fifty and three hundred dollars.
Any student who goes to the Orient today, we're paying
five hundred, and we hope to increase that to seven hundred
dollars. Also, the University has made a tremendous commitment
in its first capital campaign. There are three goals in the
capital

campaign,

and

one

of

the

goals

is

to

raise

approximately four to five hundred thousand dollars in an
endowment fund to support our students to go overseas which
puts us in a truly unique position throughout the United
States.

When I tell people that this institution this size,

-21-

K:

a state school, they are just awed that this committment has
been made by Slippery Rock to develop that kind of resource,
that kind of funding. So it makes Pam's and my job very easy.

R:

Do we do a site visitation? There's an exchange visitation
that takes place in almost all of those connections or at
least the major connections where we're going to be
teaching there?

K:

Oh, sure. As I said, for example, when we're going to try to
do something new, and it is totally centered in on one
discipline, a faculty member will go there. For example,
Professor Daddesio, we sent her to France to make sure that
is what the French faculty wanted for their students to study
in France, and so she spent the week at that site. We also
have seen to it that the various deans have gone to look at
a site if it pertains to their area. So we have that
administrative support not only from the President and Provost
but the deans also. For example, in Russia, last December,
Dean Anne Griffiths, Dr. Larry Patrick in Sustainable Systems,
and myself, we spent nine days in Russia because that program
will be for sustainable systems and environmental education,
and as an outgrowth of that we see that there is a strong
potential for biology. So they saw what was there to offer.
I go basically not to become a hundred percent knowledgeable
of the academics. I have to be aware of all the logistics
because it's me who parents call wanting to know if there is
heat in the room. Can they take three showers a day? Those

-22-

K:

kinds of logistical things that Americans want to know. So
I go looking for that kind of information. But then when it
comes to the academic, there will be a faculty member there.
We're going to send Jerry Chmielewski out of Biology back to
Russia next March because he thinks there is incredible
opportunities for certain biology students. Everyone of
those sites have been visited.

R:

Is _ _ _ _ _ _ still on our faculty?

K:

No. Russell is gone. Russell did spend quite a bit of time in
Saudi Arabia dodging scud missles when they were incoming, and
he was there at that time. No, he's retired, and he's out in
either Washington or Oregon now, I understand.

R:

Well, I just wondered because he came back, and then he'd go
back. He became a kind of permanent fixture. He was there
several years?

K:

Oh, at least three in Saudi Arabia.
So we're in very exciting times as far as international. We
have this past two weeks we've had Robert Morris and a
contingent of faculty and administrators. We've had Clarion
come in. A school from Wisconsin wants to come in to see
what we're doing. The buzz word in higher education today is
international, but very, very few schools are putting their
resources into it like this institution has committed.

R:

Lock Haven did some early stuff.

K:

Lock Haven still has

a

very strong program.

IUP

[ Indiana

University of Pennsylvania] had a very strong program. In

-23-

K:

fact, it was on a dean's level, but they have knocked it back
considerably. They've downsized I guess is the word because of
financial constraints.

B:

Shall we back up to one of your previous incarnations?

R:

Are you still teaching?

K:

I teach one class. I teach the death and dying course. It's by
choice. So just one class.

R:

You made the transition okay?

K:

Oh, yes, but I still want to teach that's why I keep the one
class.

R:

You had such a good reputation. I was here a long time, and I
heard really good things.

K:
R:

Thank you.
to say that because if you're on a campus for
twenty years or so and you never hear anything about your
colleagues then it's bothersome. To have your students and
your advisees talk about other faculty the positive sense
rather than the complaints is really a nice thing. What is
your teaching style? Can you describe it? I know that's a
weird question, but I've always been a little bit curious
about when I hear good things about other teachers I say,

R:
K:

gee, wonder how they do that.
I really don't know other than the fact that I get bored
listening to myself so I try to pull out a lot things from
the students and have them involved as much as possible.
Fortunately, particularly the death and dying course is such

-24-

K:

a course that everybody's had experience with it, and so
therefore there can be a lot of personal experiences that
we all can learn from.

R:

But really worthwhile information.

K:

Oh, yes.

R:

Because that's one of the problems with using groups in lots
of courses is you get a lot of chafe and very little wheat.

K:

Oh, yes, but if you have survived a very serious illness, and
you can relate what your feelings are, and some of the things
that will happen to you, I can learn from that. The same thing
with grief if you've lost a significant person in your life
then these were the circumstances inevitably there's somebody
in the class who's saying, oh, that's the same way I felt or
I wish I would have tried that. So, yes, there's a lot of
true learning. Not textbook many times, but human to human.

R:

Are we still learning more about hospices?

K:

Oh, hospices are becoming more and more prevalent. I think we
have a good one here in western Pennsylvania particularly in
Butler County. It's not a building. It's not a freestanding.
It's a program, and the Hospice Visiting Nurses Association
has some excellent people that can really assist families.

B:

It sounds as if the students get a little bit of therapy along
with the learning in your class.

K:

Yes.

I

never

thought

of

it

that

way,

but

I

would

think

probably some. We go around and it's very open surprisingly.
From a loved one now currently dying to I've attempted

-25-

K:

suicide to you name it and so there's a lot of openness, and
they share those feelings which I think are therapy. They do
a lot of writing. We try to have them do a lot of writing
about what they want even to a point where we have them
write to the deceased, and pouring out those feelings, and
some incredible things. You tell a student, you give an
assignment, the technical student asks, how many pages,
you know that. So if you say two you'd be amazed at some
of things. I got twenty pages one time who just had to
pour out those feelings, and I would like to think that
it's therapy for that particular person. Obviously that's
not shared with the rest of the class. That's that person's.
It's a very enjoyable class. Most people don't think death
is enjoyable. But to teach it it is.

R:

Is the human sexuality course still being taught?

K:

Oh, yes, in this department.

R:

For years you were the sole teacher of that course for some
time?

K:

Yes, I think so.

R:

Sometimes when there's only one teacher who develops a course
like death and dying or human sexuality, if they move on to
other arenas you lose the course. Like some programs like our
public relations program with Pam Shingler. When Pam moved on

R:

that thing went into serious decline.

K:

No, it's still offered in the department.

B:

So those were your two favorite courses that you taught?

-26-

K:

Yes, they really were.

B:

Well you made a difference, and you still are making a
difference.

R:

Well, you know one of things about the human sexuality course
is I heard a lot about it from my students, and it was always
serious stuff. Nobody was poking fun at the course because the
kind of course where you could have a lot of silly
It wasn't?

K:

Tried not to have it.

I mean with anything even with death

there's humor, but I think there's a difference between humor
and just outright flippant types of things.
R:

Tasteless stuff.

K:

Tasteless. Better word.

B:

So with all of this activity, you're teaching and your
international

program,

does

that

leave

you

any

time

for

anything athletic, Stan?
K:

No more. I'm a couch potato in that respect. Gee, this is
the tenth year I've been out of coaching. I coached here for
fifteen, and then this will be the tenth year. It's hard to
believe that it's been ten years since I stopped coaching.
No regrets. No regrets from coaching, and no regrets from
leaving at the time, and again that's been for me personally
been the beauty of Slippery Rock. I've been able to change
jobs and not move. As we all know, we go through various job

K:

changes in our life, and we have to uproot most of the time,
but I've been fortunate to really have three job changes at

-27-

K:

Slippery Rock. I came primarily as a coach. I didn't have to
teach, but I was here in my mind to coach as I think most
young coaches are at the time. Slippery Rock enabled me to
see that there's more to athletics than athletics. There is
an educational component, and I was able to develop a course
on human sexuality and a course on death and dying. It allowed
me

to

pursue

academic

interests

in

that

it

gave

me

an

oppotunity to be involved today with the international. For me
it's been a very, very positive 25 years.
R:

I was always impressed early when I came in 1971 or 1972 or
1973 with the fact that the coaches were faculty members, and
that they held faculty rank. I understand that's no longer.

K:

Partially.

R:

Yes. They're getting into that process.

K:

Yes, I think it is very, very positive because for several
reasons. One, it allowed us to interact faculty. To many times
coaches are an entity unto themselves almost not a part of the
universtiy. We were on the same university committees as
someone from Chemistry or wherever they were housed. So we
interacted with faculty. It also made us understand the role
and the pressures of being a student because we had to go in
front of a class also. We had to prepare. So therefore we
couldn't make undo demands on a students time. They're still
students.

That's what they are here

for

is their degree.

They're not here to play football, in my case. They're here
to get a degree and play some football on the side. so I

-28-

K:

think it's the ideal combination. We've moved away from that
obviously somewhat, but the current head coach has a Ph.D.
and still teaches six hours. One of his assistants is in
physical education. The rest of his help is full-time. Full
time coaching. But yet if you moved to some of our other state
system schools, those staffs are 100 percent non-faculty.
They are there for football or basketball exclusively.

R:

And not long ago we were 100 percent faculty.

B:

What's your feeling about that change? Have you seen any
results?

K:

Yes. I think the positive part of it as far as staying is that
it keeps you in perspective. It keeps your program in
perspective. The downside of that is though you're competing
against people who don't have that philosophy and it makes it
very difficult, and you don't win on the collegiate level
without recruiting, but if you are teaching three days a week
and your competitor doesn't teach at all, your competitor is
on the road five days a week and if you are lucky you make
two days. So they're seeing and really recruiting far more
extensively than you're able to. So that's the downside that
you just don't have the opportunity from what I hear from the
coaches to contact the players that you need.

R:

What about the job security?

K:

Well, obviously that's the greatest thing there is.

I mean if

you are here with faculty rank and tenure like myself. I'm
no longer in football, but I'm still here. Whereas if you're

-29K:

stictly here as a coach, it's all dependent on the last upon
the left hand column, and that's wins. It't the number. You're
tenured and associated directly with the left hand column, and
that's thew's. Non-tenure status comes from the right hand
column and that's the losses.

R:

Let's see, we won state championships in 1972, 1973, 1974,
1977.

K:

Somewhere.

R:

Anyhow, out of six years we won five or four out of five. Was
there a special reason why we were that good at that time?

K:

Yes. I've mentioned this to Coach Mihalek just recently.
Coaches are always looking for more resources, more talent
etcetera, and in the resource category apparently Slippery
Rock is not as high as the schools we compete against.
I said, George, you know that's not the other schools
fault, it's our fault. He said, I know it is. I said, yes,
but I don't think you understand the real reason. We were
one of the first back in the early 1970's to really
actively recruit. It used to be in this state system
minor recruiting. Nothing really extensive, organized.
But when Coach Dispirito, with his coming, with a very,
very rigorous recruitment program, and also working to
secure funds to support the athlete to come here. I
laugh at the amount of money compared to what is out
there today, but it's all relative to when you where.
So we where one of the first to start going out and

-30-

K:

working to develop the N. K. Thompson Scholarship Fund
to start giving very small amounts of money. I think it
was five hundred dollars. And five hundred dollars today
won't buy you a manager let alone a quarterback, but we
had the support of the administration. At the time, Dr.
Watrel. He saw the positive image that a winning faculty
program could have on the institution, and he enabled us
to recruit. We had our schedule set so that we could have
at least two days a week off to go on the road. Prior to
that, I don't know when you came, Joe, but when I came we
taught six days a week. We had Saturday classes here. You
had Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday,
and had a game Saturday afternoon. I'll never forget that.
I think it was at least two years before we got rid of
the Saturday classes.

R:

I'll bet the road trips where really tricky?

K:

Oh, they were really tricky. When Dr. Watrel came we had
Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and therefore, could go on the
road Tuesday and Thursdays and contact young men to come here.
So that was a

committment by Dr.

Watrel

to have a

team.

Nothing ever happens without a committment. I don't care what
it is.
R:

Of course, those were just five days.

K:

One of the first questions people always ask you when you
quit coaching is, how does it feel? And your standard
comment you'll from coach after coach, I never realized

-31-

K:

Sunday and Monday were so nice. Because those two days were
usually the days you were here till all day Sunday till
midnight,

and all day Monday till midnight. Those are very

long days. And then your weekend travel if you're away, but
you never realized that Sunday and Monday existed.
B:

You were talking about Bob Dispirito. Was he a major influence
in your career.

K:

Oh, I wouldn't be where I am today without Bob. I'm very
indebted to the man simply because he allowed you one if
you're looking at it straight from an athletic point of
view, he allowed you to coach, and he had a way of handling
his staff that made you want to work for Bob because Bob
shared. Unlike some coaches who only know the word I Bob
never dealt in the word I except when there was a problem
and then Bob assumed that responsibility, and he answered
for it. Anything else though was we or you and he also
allowed us to develop those academic pursuits. I mean I
could never have gone on sabbatical. Unheard of of a
coach going on sabbatical to develop not my football
background, but to be able to do something academically.
So he allowed us to be not only creative. To do what we
wanted. To think what we needed to do to win, but he
allowed us to pursue other avenues. Bob does not like to
talk football 24 hours a day. Bob likes to talk about
art. He likes music. He loves to plant a garden. He likes
to make his goomba tomato sauce. The other things in life,

-32-

K:

and he allowed us to those kinds of things, and when it
was time to move on, Bob was also one of the more supportive
people. Many times I kid him also. Your to blame for all
the problems around here, Coach. Your the one who brought
this idea of winning and doing things the way it was. I
mean it's been around here for the last 15 to 20 years.
That never happened apparently till you came.

R:

When I came here there was always these wonderful stories
about Albert Watrel, and they called him coach also.

K:

Oh, yes, he was.

R:

And kind of strange mistaken notion that he was calling
plays. The story got totally out of hand, but it was a
funny story, and Bob has of course marvelous recollections
and sees Albert Watrel when they come through town. They're
very much in touch and they stay with Bob and so forth.
But he would talk about his mail and he would talk about
Albert and the New Jersey and New York papers. Were you
familiar with all that.

K:

Oh, yes. I'm familiar with the twelve o'clock phone calls.
I'm just reading the New York paper here and there's about
three or four kids and Al would call you and discuss them.
He'd come down to practice. He was quite an athlete at
Syracuse and I'll never forget one time. We were having
difficulty. The poor kid couldn't make the deep snap on
the punt team. He couldn't snap that ball back to save
his life. Watrel took his tie off. He took his suit coat

-33-

K:

off and showed him how to snap that ball because he was a
center. So, yes, that was support. He did. He allowed
us as I said to recruit. He allowed to start having some
where with all to support that athlete. And I think if you
go back and look at those graduation rates you can honestly
see that those were student athletes. We had some fantastic
kids come out of here. Strong academics. I believe extremely
well today. So they were definitely student athletes. I
think the whole time when I was involved with it only two
students that I recruited didn't finish their degree. A lot
of the students I recruited quit football. You know they
decided not to play football for four years, but as far as
the student playing his four years of football and not
getting a degree only two, and I think that was very, very
typical of all of those recruits with Bob Dispirito. Bob
saved so many kids. I mean literally saved them. Not just
academically, and by saving I don't mean where he knocked
on the door and said to the professor, you change that grade.
That's not Bob. But in working with that young man to point
out to him that there is something out there more than
football in life. Saving kids who had personal problems that
some of us on the staff would shake our head at. Coach, why
are you doing this? Why are you taking the time? Those kids
are doing well today. I think most people would have thrown
that young man on the trash heap. Not coach. He could see
something deep down in there. He saved many a kid.

-34-

R:

Coaches

and

athletes

have

a

kind

of

a

very

special

relationship that's very different from other teacher/student
kinds of things which lends itself to a kind of comaraderie
where and a kind of a hero worship in some cases. In a case

8
K:

like Bob and the players or you and the players were you could
get things out them that nobody else could get.
Oh, yes. A faculty member sees somebody three days a week
for fifty minutes.

R:

That is not to say that faculty couldn't do the same thing,
but you did it on a

K:

That's right. Yes. When you're with a young man for hours and
you're dealing with not only his physical abilities, but all
the emotional and psychological things that are going on in
that young man's life that are impacting on his ability to
perform, you see people in a totally different light.

R:

Did we have a lot of injuries? I know there were always some
injuries, but we didn't have a lot of anything really
terrible happenings.

K:

No. Fortunately, we never had a paralysis and some of those
life threatening. Every coach thinks that they have more
than their share of injuries. You know the knees and the
shoulders and the broken bones, but, no, we were very, very
fortunate never to have a life threatening. Again I think
part of that was a reflection on the way the coach ran the
program. We were not here to feather our caps so we could
move on to the Notre Dames and the Pitts and the Penn states.

-35K:

So we weren't trying to build a reputation on the back of
the student. So therefore the student was not abused.

R:

Fundamentally you just didn't hire people like that.
I mean if they were hot dogs and they were transients, he
didn't hire transients.

K:

He didn't. I mean I remember afterwards being there and
sitting there listening to some interviews, and you could just
see that coach wasn't going to hire that person because he
didn't fit in. He only wanted to win.

B:

So injuries are more likely to happen when the students are
overworked?

K:

Oh sure. You know what's happened to the NCAA again I don't
keep up with it, but there are limitations on the amount of
practice time you can have, and that's what we've always had.

B:

Way before your time.

K:

We had one meeting a week at night. We take them for an hour
on Monday nights, but we worked the other nights, but not
students. Whereas if you would go to some of the big programs
for seven days a week, 365 days a year, I mean it was just.
They owned you. There was never any ownership here. And if
a student said that, you don't like it, but when a student
had a four o'clock lab that didn't get out until five-thirty,
that student didn't come to practice that day. Because I mean
the Chemistry Department isn't going schedule their lab at
your convenience, and so they went to the chemistry lab or
whatever lab it happened to be. _ _

The kids weren't tired.

-36-

K:

They worked hard, but we didn't own them, and I think that's
a real, real big, big diffeence. There's no ownership. Even
with it today with George having the financial resources to
give to a kid, there's no ownership here yet. George Mihalek
doesn't believe in that either because he played under coach.
So I think he's an awful lot in that philosophy.

B:

What other great people on this campus can you tell us about?
Or maybe not so great. People who have impacted your life

K:

I think the people that I orginally came with in the Allied
Health, then it was Health Education, then Health Science, and
now Allied Health, were some incredibly supportive people.
Because the department had to pick up some of the work load
for people like myself who were coaching. We couldn't be on
all the committees and those kinds of things we missed. People
like Joyce _ _ • Joycee would give. Ken Lowry. They understood
and

they

saw

the

value

of

athletics

in

its

real

true

perspective. So they supported you and allowed you to coach
and encouraged you to coach. I don't know if that would have
happened in a lot of departments because other people would
have to pick up some of that load, and it's an inevitable
burden. It really is. So those kinds of people have been very,
very supportive. I've also had a very, very good relationship
with Anne Griffiths on administrative point of views. She's
been very, very supportive of things from when she was in the
school of education and now as dean of human services. The
one person that I'll never forget, and he made me really see

-37-

K:

that Slippery Rock is a place in which learning does take
place because I've always respected him as an intelligent man
was Bob Makoskey. Bob, the philosopher. I barely can spell
philosophy let alone know what it stands for, but I remember
him telling about some instance of students and also who
have gone here and who moved on, and had done extremely well.
Because he said, you know what, we used the same textbook
as Harvard does, and we have produced some darn good kids
as he would say. Sometimes in a little different language
he would say it, but we have some good kids coming out of
here, and learning takes place here because this is a
teaching institution, and I think with teaching comes with
the administration today I think constantly is telling
people comes caring. I really do. I think if you are a
teacher there is a caring aspect into it, and therefore
you take students and you really prepare them and they can
go on to grad school. I'll give you an example of that.
An incredible example of it. An international student
from Sweden came here majored in chemistry, and was
determined to go to M.I.T. [Massachusetts Institute of
Technology] in an area called ___ oceonography. He
applied. It's an interview process and everything, and
he came back and he says, you know, when I applied they
said, get away, forget about it, you're coming from
Slippery Rock. How are you ever going to get in to a
program of chemical oceanography here at M.I.T.? Two

-38-

K:

people that year were selected from the world, not the
United States, from the world to enter that program and
one of them was the Slippery Rock student from Sweden.
Why? Because he said, everything they asked me I had the
background. The chemistry department prepared me, and they
were amazed that you could come from Slippery Rock. Again
it goes back to what Bob said. We're using the same books
as Harvard. These are people who teach. They're in the
classroom. They're not sitting in a lab doing their
research. They're interfacing, interacting, with students.
So he said, our students can handle themselves. I think
were seeing that. We're putting some good students out
there who are doing some great things out there today. They
may not be our presidents of countries, or presidents of
corporations, but you can only have so many chiefs.

R:

We have an amazing number of 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 students who
came out of communications who are now just excelling out
there in that real world. So their four years were beer
parties and social activities, and not heavy on the books
but they were people who didn't lose their motivation once
they got.

K:

Part of that can be attributed again to the faculty who
take some of these kids under wing. And when you say faculty
I don't mean that just in the classroom sense. I mean that's
the people in the department, the staff, the clerical, all
those kinds of people. There's an awful lot of that going on.

-39-

K:

I never realized it as much as I do now, today, because of
the international students. Where a secretary will call, and
want to know about this kid, and say, we want to do this for
the student. I think that's happening, not only with the
internationals, but I think it's happening with the American
kids too. It is kind of a unique, little goofy place in the
middle of no where in western Pennsylvania.

B:

You paint us a rosy picture. What kinds of things were
disappointing? was there anything over the years shouldn't
have happened?

K:

Yes. A lot of it. We went through a real rotten time when
Watrel was released and then that interim period and then
when we went to the outside and brought in a president,
Herb Reinhard. I think that was very disruptive period for
us because the word we was very rarely ever used. It was
only I, and I don't think there was really much care for
Slippery Rock at that time. It was what Slippery Rock could
do to enhance my resume, my portfolio. I think those were
very devastating times. The negativism that was here. I think
everybody felt on edge. You didn't know who you could interact
with. Who you could trust because you didn't know how it
was going to get back up to the third floor [Old Main].
Those were not enjoyable times. I don't know if I would still
be coaching if he were not here, or had not been here, but
it was one of the major things that made me want to leave.
It was to a point where it was no longer fun, and I saw that.

-40-

K:

Not only in the department, it was the faculty on campus.
A childish mentality.

R:

A serious morale problem.

B:

It was demoralizing.

K:

Very demoralizing. I think that was our real down years.

R:

I thought Larry Park did a really good job of healing.

K:

Just kind of letting the dust settle.

R:

I loved his first speech to the faculty. Do not regale me with
any Albert Watrel stories, he said, I'm not here to hear those
stories. He said, I know the stories. Just don't do that.
I remember that from his speech. I've got some notes from that
speech somewhere. He was a very, very fine, honest, straightforward.

He

wouldn't

allow

himself

to

be

called

acting

president.
K:

That's right.

R:
B:

Too bad we couldn't keep him instead of what happened.

R:

I think the transition was good.

K:

Yes, it was a down time. The thing that I will never forget,
and I think we all ended up getting caught up in it too. You
didn't dare do a thing without covering your backside, and
so if you ever looked on memos or things that went across
campus, I think one time I counted ten carbon copies to ten
different people. Everybody was running scared. You carboned
everything. What a difference today because I will get things
back from the third floor [Old Main] scribbled on my memo that

-41-

K:

I sent up. Whereas before you had to have a formal memo back
and ten people copied. Yes, everybody was apprehensive, and
that takes away from creativity. You can't be creative when
you're constantly looking aside.

R:

You didn't sign a memo all by yourself. You got about ten
other folks to sign with you. They couldn't figure out who
did it.

K:

And that was a disgusting few years. I make no bones about it.
I think we are now also getting to some points where we're
losing some of our diversity here. On one hand we're working
so hard to be culturally diverse in what we're doing with the
international students,

but because of the restraints that

have been placed on us by the state, we've had to eliminate
those out of states. And if you stop and think about it,
that's also tremendous diversity. What's wrong with having
the kid from New York city here? They're going to add something to this very provincial little locale that's cosmopolitan, but you know we've lost our out of state students.
Tremendous drop, and I think that's not healthy.
R:

And that's being duplicated by state after state.

K:

Yes.

R:

Those out of state tuitions. They've gone crazy with that in
the Carolinas and just kind of everywhere. It was universally
a very bad thing to have happen. What they should have done
was dropped those barriers and let it flow.

K:

Yes, let it flow because it adds to the diversity, and I see

-42-

K:

that where we've become very closed minded because we only
have one frame of reference. That's this local western
Pennsylvania. There's nothing wrong with it, but it only
happens to be a very little part of the world, and not the
world.

R:

We need to find out about those people from West Virginia.
That's all there is to it.

K:

Oh, geez, Joe.

B:

We already know about them.

R:

We bought that farm.
What about the relationship with other athletic endeavors?

K:

Oh, there was great comraderie when we were coaching. I don't
know if it's there today. I think that one will take some time
to heal,

but it will heal.

Maybe heal

isn't the word I'm

looking for, but when we were coaching men's sports dominated.
Women's sports were just something thrown off to the side, and
what was left that was theirs. Obviously, I think in any human
endeavor when the has have to give up, there's resentment. So
there's that. I think it's starting to become a part of the
culture. The way of thinking that I have a wife, and I have a
daughter in high school. The opportunities our son had to
participate. But when I was coaching, it was pretty mean. We
should get everything. But that's the way it was, and that
is changing, and I think that has caused some of the athletic
problems. We're into this gender equity now. I hear the
coaches talking about that. I'm glad that I'm not involved

-43-

K:

in all of that. The new supreme court guidelines and all of
that kind of thing. That takes time to work through. It
really does and so I don't know if that one will be resolved
overnight because this as a have never liked to give up for
the have nots. That's human nature. I don't care if it's in
the political arena or an athletic arena or in any relationship, but that's, I think, another problem on not only this
campus basis. Maybe we face it a little differently or maybe
a little more so than other campuses because we have such a
large athletic program compared to other schools. We have
had traditional a large because of the outgrowth of the
physical education program. I hear that. I'm glad I only
hear.

B:

I saw a T.V. bit about an athletic director at a high school
in New England. Along with her on the T.V. was a young woman
who was on a football team, and a young man who was on the
hockey team which was traditionally a girls.

K:

Field hockey.

B:

Field hockey team. Both students were very comfortable with
their roles and so was the athletic director. Since you're
no longer really occupied with that field anymore, what's
your prediction for that kind of integration? Is that just
a dream?

K:

I guess if you look at in theory, it should be, and it
shouldn't make any difference. We had a soccer game. our
daughter had a soccer game last Thursday, and it was the

-44-

K:

first time in which they had their game and it was going
to be followed by the boy's team at the high school. On
the girl's team there are some very talented young women
for soccer. The first two years here locally they had
to play on the boy's team because there was no girl's
team. It's only been last year and this year. Then the
boy's team came out after the completion of the girl's
game, and those very talented young ladies could not have
played. The game is so different. So what I see is the
value in certain sports in order for them to compete,
I'm glad there is a separate team for our daughter.

B:

They're not strong enough?

K:

Strong or fast enough. I mean it was just an incredibly
different game. The speed of the game is so much different,
but that's in soccer. In the other sports, I wouldn't be
surprised. Obviously, look what's happening in track and
field. Not in the sprints, but in some of the other sports.
The times for women have dropped far more dramatically than
times for men. Simply because women are getting a chance
to participate and practice, and have great training, and
follow those regimentations. Probably there will come a
day where there will be very little difference, and so
what. So big deal. Let them go together. I see nothing on
it.

R:

Let evolution handle it.

K:

Let evolution handle it. We do it in every other thing.

-45-

K:

Let people evolve to where they feel comfortable.

R:

I saw that the young lady just kicked six extra points
and does the field goals.

K:

I think actually it's going to help athletics in this respect.
I think we've started to see where athletics begin to decline
because of so many other interests in society today.
But now when you have so many women and so many young girls
participating, there's something to keep both groups there
instead of going off into this multitude of activities that's
out there in society today, and we're seeing greather numbers
I think starting to participae. It's holding
I like to be around my girls. Girls like to be around the
boys. They have something in common they can discuss. Their
performance. Their team. Everything takes time.

R:

Our first state championship that came out of our high
school was girls basketball, and finally the guys won a
state championship in football, but we were second. We
weren't first. Just went to a football game in my hometown
for alumni weekend. Seven thousand people at that football
game. In a little tiny town, Stanley. This isn't Wheeling
or Parkersburg. This is Middleburg. Just an incredible
turnout, but that's what they do in the small areas. They
follow their athletic teams, girls and boys.

K:

Oh, athletics is still great if put in the proper perspective.

R:

Oh, I think they are.

It isn't like when I was a kid the

guys who played college ball, some of them, came and played

-46-

R:

for the high school team on Friday nights

K:
B:

Let's get back to your really early life. We started when you
came

to

Slippery

Rock.

Tell

us

something

about

that

background.
K:

As I said I happened to be at the University of Buffalo with
Clinger and Ron Oberlin. They said that somebody had moved
on from Slippery Rock to Boston University and there was a
position open. They said, why don't you drive down and
interview? They called coach and I came down and spent time
with coach and the then dean, Bill Meise. I drove back to
Buffalo. My wife and I had been living in Michigan, teaching
and coaching and I said, guess what? We got a job. First time
I had ever done that without consulting her or anything like
that. I said, we have a job. She said, where? I said, Slippery
Rock.

So here we

are.

I

came here with the

intention of

leaving. Seriously. I did come. I figured it was a chance to
get into college coaching, and then moving on through that
kind of lifesytle until I went to a coaches convention and
happened to be standing around a lobby and listening to two
coaches talk. I'll never forget it. He was 49 years old. He
had just lost his fifth job. They had just got fired. The
whole staff got fired. He had a daughter in college. Two
children following and no job.
We found gold.
R:

We're not going to be out there at 45 or 46.

-47-

K:

I'm not going to chase that rainbow. It's the same football.
It's the

same field.

It's the same equipment except that

there's not a hundred thousand people. I said, we have
security here.
B:

And Joe Paterno had Penn State tied up.

K:

Paternal had Penn State tied up. So that how I came to stay
and began to see that this is not a bad place to live. We've
got the amenities of Pittsburgh. Then when this job that I'm
now in came up, I can go away from home and travel but yet
still come home. It's been ideal. It was a very social campus
when we first came. Very, very social. Well, you know. The
parties. The football staff always had a party. Somebody had
a party. Doesn't mean I think we were wild party goers, but
it also gave a chance as coaches to meet the faculty. Just
to develop a real good comraderie. Drink a few beers.

R:

They were really wonderful years. They kind of slipped away
from us.

K:

Yes. George is trying to bring that back. George had parties.
George invites faculty to all his games, and he's trying to do
that same thing. But I think it's a different thing. George
has it very much difficult than what Bob had. When you came
and I came there was a tremendous growth. That was that growth
period at Slippery Rock,

and all very young people.

We're

getting old now and set in our ways and that kind of stuff so
there isn't that

. That whole era has kind of passed. But

when they get rid of you and I or they got rid of you and

-48-

K:

they're going to get rid of me pretty soon, Joe, then maybe
that whole new group will come in and they'll do those same
things all over again?

B:

Young, energetic ones.

R:

Gee, I hope so. I hope they have as much fun as we did.

B:

You had a football career in college and in high school.

K:

Yes.

B:

Where was that?

K:

Central Michigan. I lived in Michigan all my life till we came
here to Pennsylvania. I never left Michigan. I taught and
coached in Michigan for five years before we came. As I said,
I happened to be in the right place at the right time. I was
ready to move. Now we're not ready.

B:

So football was a big part of your early life.

K:

Oh, it was my life. I would not have gone to college.

B:

You went on scholarship?

K:

No. But I just enjoyed it, and it was football that kept me
studying, believe it or not, because you had to maintain your
eligibility. If it wasn't for football, I doubt very much if
I would have gone on to school.

R:

I was a referee in West Virginia, Ohio and Pennsylvania, but
that was a long time ago. The early fifties, the late forties,
and I would go to the coaches conferences at Jackson's Mill
in West Virginia, and it was really a great fraternity of
gentlemen. Those guys liked each other. They respected each
other. They played hard against each other, and somebody won,

-49-

R:

and somebody lost, and somebody got a better job, but it was
quite a fraternity. I suspect it still is.

K:

Oh, yes. I think that to _ _ _ _ _ simply because a lot of the
coaches today on the high school level are not teachers, and
that's sad because

teaching positions and people are

_______ . You do get burned out. That's are rare if you
have a Joe Paterno. Those are the rare, rare birds that can
go for thirty-five years or something like that, and then
there aren't the teaching jobs to open up, and so many of
the coaches today are working out in the community and just
come in to coach.
R:

They're selling insurance or cars.

K:

That's right. And so therefore that comraderie isn't there
because they don't have the time to interact. I think that
affects the students. You know we have part-time coaches
here at the University who really just come in part-time
to coach and leave. They're great coaches, but I think all
of that things is missing.

R:

You see some of your former athletes. I know Dennis is
around and Tommy _ _ _ , but those guys drop by from time
to time.

K:

Oh, they sure do. They come up. In fact, a couple of them
want to initiate a twenty year celebration next year of
those championship years. A couple of them were up for
Homecoming and talked to coach about doing that. So yes
they stick together. George is working with a lot of them

-50-

K:

in fund raising. They're the ones who are now out there
in positions to support, and they are remembering Slippery
Rock and they are helping.

R:

With IUP's enrollment and so forth, did they have an unfair
advantage against us?

K:

Enrollment means nothing. You still have to have eleven. It's
the support that IUP currently has at this time.

R:

From alumni?

K:

I don't know where their funds are being generated. What did
George tell me just last week? They have the equivilant of
something like thirty-two full scholarships. They can break
it up any way they want, but they have the equivilant of
thirty-two, and I think George works on about sixteen.

R:

And the reason we don't have that is simply money, funding?

K:

Sure. Funding.

R:

There are no constraints on IUP in terms of the number of,
there are some.

K:

They're NCAA constraints. Their within the NCAA constraints,
yes.

R:

So if we by our own alumni support or whatever support is
legal, we're greater than we could be doing a little better
job with our

K:

Recruiting. Oh, sure.

R:

That's true of A, AA

K:

Yes. All of those.

R:

Called tradition and money.

-51-

K:

Yes. In athletics that's still a big word.

R:

You've had a lot of really good years, and high points.

K:

And low points. I still can't tell you the score because I
have selective forgetting, but the low point of getting all
the hype at the University of Michigan and then just getting
ourselves waxed, embarrassed, not waxed, embarrassed.

R:
K:

Don't even bring that up because I'm trying to forget that.

R:
K:

But yes those were kinds of the low points for me.

R:

That's a big audience.

K:

Those kinds of things. Those things you never forget. If you
mess up somewhere along the line and make the wrong or give
the wrong question on a test you can correct it, but when
fifty thousand people saw you make a fool of yourself, well
that one sticks with you.

B:

But it doesn't hurt so much all these years later, does it?
Things have balanced it.

K:

Well, sure, but it all sticks in there. It really does because
you took such pride and you should have been the one who won.
You allowed yourself to be beaten.

R:

Shippensburg of all people.

K:

Yes.

R:

It doesn't make sense.

K:

Yes.

B:

So every loss takes its toll.

-52-

K:

I really can't remember many of those great games that you
won. I really can't. I didn't particularly like games anyway.
I was kind of a different coach. I enjoyed during the week
preparing my group to beat you. That was the challenge. The
game was almost anitclimatic. Some coaches love Saturday.
That's what they live for. I lived for practice because I
was going to beat you on the game on the practive field.
Our kids were going to be prepared that whatever you did
they were just going to automatically respond to it. We
were going to teach them. I was never one who could make
profound changes in five minutes on the sideline or in
ten minutes at half-time. We had to do our homework.

R:

If it hadn't happened by Saturday.

K:

So the games to me were anitclimatic except the losses.
You played every game to win and then when you lost that
sticks.

B:

So with all those many games you played the big win is hard
to remember?

K:

I can't even tell you the scores of the championship game.
I can't even tell you the scores.

B:

But the losses?

K:

I can tell you those losses because we did something wrong
in our preparation that we should have done that we didn't do.
But that was my approach to the game. _____ who was here
who was fantastic on Saturday. He could make changes and do
things that were incredible on the spur of the moment and he

-53-

K:

lived for that Saturday to do that. I just wanted to get the
game over and hope it went into the "W" column. I wanted to
get back to work on Sunday so that we could start tearing you
apart and dissecting you and the next weeks opponent. To be
prepared. To let it just roll. Let it function the way it's
supposed to function.

R:

What happens when there are twelve guys on the field? I
never did quite figure that out.

K:

Well, it means that coaches can't count.

R:

Well, thank you very much.

K:

My pleasure.

B:

Enjoyed that.