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SRU ORAL HISTORY
I

"SLIPPERY ROCK UNIVERSITY

IN THE SIXTIES"

INTERVIEWEE:

MS. M. KATE
BRENNAN

INTERVIEWER:

MS. LEAH M. BROWN

18 MAY 1993

BRO:

This is May 18, 1993, and this is Leah Brown in the Library
Archives talking to Kate Brennan, chair of the Music Department. You were saying you've been in higher education for a
long time and you came today with notes. That's wonderful.

BRE:

I think I've been here too long because I had to go back and
dig through all my old notes and find a book.

So I had to do

my research before I can even come and talk about myself.
BRO:

You are unique.
for you.

We can start at any point that's comfortable

Generally people tell us how they came to Slippery

Rock or why they came to Slippery Rock or all of the above.
Does that make a good starting point, or would you rather start
here and go back?
BRE:

No, that's fine.

If I can remember.

As a matter of fact, it's

exactly 30 years, and thirty years ago I was teaching public
school in Meadville, the home of Allegheny College.

Sunday

I had the good fortune of seeing my son graduate from Allegheny
College thirty years later.

That was kind of a neat experi-

ence. At that time, Slippery Rock music department had three
faculty members.

They were looking for a fourth person to

(2)

BRE:

teach on television which sounded very enticing.

I couldn't

think of any other reason to come to Slippery Rock though
because it was such a little, still is, but it was really a
little place then.

I had grown up close to Pittsburgh so I

wasn't used to seeing cows alongside the road, but the job
was enticing because they were going to set up what may now
come to fruition 30 years later.

They were going to set up

a satellite teaching center in the then Laboratory School in
McKay Ed. Building.

I was hired to be the music television

teacher or television music teacher.

So that's what I guess

started, or kind of fueled my interest in the position. I
did do that incidentally for a couple of years and then they
decided that technology was too expensive and they tore it
all out.
BRO:

Television had no future.

BRE:

Right.

They tore it all out, and stopped the project.

expensive.

It was

So that's really how I came to Slippery Rock. The

reason I was interviewed, I think, was because of my reputation
as a teacher, which is so different from the way it is now.
was contacted by the chair of the department.
BRO:

Who was that?

BRE:

Clair Swope.

Who had heard about me from somebody else,

a friend, or someone in the area, someone actually in the
Sharon School District, and he called and asked if he could

I

(3)

BRE:

come and watch me teach.

So he came.

the two of them stayed all day.
and watched me teach.

Brought Ed Sims, and

They interviewed my principal

That's how I got the job which is such

a different procedure than we have now.
applied for the position.

So I never even

It kind of fell in my lap.

I was

the, no, I was going to say the first woman, but that isn't
true, I think the person I replaced was Gladys Arnold.
BRO:

In the department?

BRE:

Yes.

And there were four of us then.

So between then and now

we have gained another 14 faculty people along the way.
BRO:

You have 18 in the department?

BRE:

We have 18 now.

Some part-time.

we have 15 full-time.
BRO:

You came at what rank?

BRE:

An instructor.

Not all full-time.

I think

Three part-time people.

I didn't even have a master's degree.

had to hurry up and do that.

So I

So I chose to go to Penn State

because I knew that I could get more credits at Penn State than
at any where else.

So I went to Penn State one summer and

again lived what seemed like a mile away from the music building. There were cows mooing outside my window.

I can remember

that. I hated the place so I only stayed there one summer
because I was getting a master's degree in music education, and
I found out very quickly that the music education classes were
in the education building, not in the music building.

So I

(4)

BRE:

decided I didn't want to pursue my education at Penn State any
longer. I transferred to Duquesne and finished at Duquesne on
weekends and summers.

BRO:

Well, the fact that it wasn't in the music building meant that
there wasn't any emphasis on music?

BRE:

Very little.

I didn't hear any music all summer. Some recorded

things, but I heard very little music all summer. And the
climate there is just not very conducive to music somehow. So I
chose not to stay there.

I understand that it's still pretty

much the same now as it was then.
BRO:

But Duquesne was better?

BRE:

Duquesne was wonderful.

Well, I was used to more urban set-

ting, and so that felt more like home to me.

It was a dingy

old building, but there were wonderful people, and lots of
music, lots of musicians.
corner.

Little coffee shops around the

It was just a better environment I thought for music.

I met lots of wonderful people at Duquesne.
BRO:

And so how did it go at Slippery Rock when you became an
instructor here?

BRE:

Well, it went very well.

I continued my work with children

by teaching in the lab school half of the time and then
teaching college classes the other half.
two sections of a course called Music 200.

So I think I had
It was a classroom

teacher course, a course where they learned how to teach music

(5)

BRE:

in their classrooms.

So I could teach in the Lab School, and

the students, the college students, could watch me on closedcircuit television from some stations around.
actually watch what was going on.
wonderful.

They could

Which was terrific.

Really

I could just say today I'm going to do thus and so

and they would come and see it.

It didn't disturb the kids

because they weren't right in the room with them. But the
cameras were a little bit disruptive.

They did move.

They

did turn and make noise, but they got used to that pretty
quickly.

But I remember carpeting was such a big deal.

They

had to put carpeting in the rooms to cushion the sound a
little and I can remember thinking the carpeting was wonderful.
So that was fine.

I had a very good year, first year.

And at the end of that year it was particulary nice because of
the President then, John Edwards. When I was hired the year
before, Dr. Weisenfluh, President Weisenfluh, was still in
office, and I think he retired at the end of my first year and
Edwards took over.

One funny story about Dr. Weisenfluh.

When Clair Swope took me in for my interview, Clair was very
supportive of women, by the way, even 30 years ago, women
faculty, and so Dr. Weisenfluh was interviewing me.

Everybody

was interviewed by the president at that time, and he said,
he asked me about my qualifications and so on, and then he
said, well, I guess everything's fine then, but you know

( 6)

BRE:

she'll just get married and leave, and here I am still here 30
years later. So that was a funny comment.

BRO:

Did he wait for a reply from you?

BRE:

I don't know whether I said anything or not.
too frightened.

I guess I was

When the next president then came in, he

was interim for one year. He called me in one day, maybe
this was the end of my second year, and this was so important
to me, and he said, you're doing a wonderful job.
anything I can do to help you?

Is there

I was just thrilled.

BRO:

That was lovely.

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

Did he do this with other people or just for you?

BRE:

I don't know.

Everything was professional but close.

I told him what I needed to do my job better,

and he got it for me.
really terrific.

Isn't that something.

Yes.

It was

He was a very, very nice man, but he took

the time to say, you're doing a very good job which was
very supportive.

It felt very good.

mood changed after that.

Then I would say the

That was 1965 or so, and shortly

after I got married in 1965, I became pregnant, and I can
remember really worrying about the fact that I was pregnant,
and about the fact that I might lose my job.

I didn't

know where to go or who to tell or what to do about it.

So

I just went up to the President's office and Marc Selman was
the assistant to the president at that time. And I said,

( 7)

BRE:

Marc, I'm going to tell you that I am pregnant and I don't
know what to do about it.

He said, I'll take care of it.

So I got a maternity leave for the fall of 1966 and that
was because Marc knew what to do. I didn't know what to do.
BRO:

There were no guidelines?

BRE:

I wasn't sure anyone here had ever been pregnant on the faculty
before. I'd like to know if I was the first one.
one semester.

The fall semester of 1966.

So I did miss

So that was nice

because I found a way to solve that situation.

But I came

right back to school in January, and then when my second son
was born in 1971, he was born in the summertime, so I didn't
miss any school at all. Went right back to school.

The other

nice thing about Slippery Rock at that time was the fact that
everybody knew who the best babysitters were, and there
was one woman in town, Mrs. Eppinger, who watched all the
faculty kids.

So that was a very nice situation.

I

could drop my children off there in the morning and pick
them up in the evening.

That was very convenient.

Also,

at that time, we could arrange our schedules so that
I could be here in the morning, and my husband could be
here in the afternoon.

Our chairperson was very kind, and

was very supportive in that he would give us those kinds
of schedules if we asked for them.
BRO:

And the chairperson at that time?

So it was very nice.

(8)

BRE:

Was still Clair Swope.

He was very good to us.

A good

person.
BRO:

Were there more women by then in your department?

BRE:

Jean Baker was hired probably three or four years after
I was.

By that time she was on the faculty, yes.

had two women.

So we

So there probably seven of us by that time.

It was growing slowly.

And we added, I think, the first

degree program which was our Bachelor of Arts degree.
started with Bachelor of Arts degree.

We

Until that time, we

had been pretty much a service department.
BRO:

You said, just to complete that, that now you have 18 people,
18 faculty, and majors.

BRE:

About 75 majors now.

How many majors?

And that's about as many as we can

handle with 18 faculty.
BRO:

so it's really grown.

BRE:

Oh, it's a very, very different atmosphere now than it was
then.

BRO:

Talk about the atmosphere.

BRE:

I guess the first thing that comes to mind is the fact that
we put on in quality and yet we had very good faculty, I
think, all the way along. We just didn't have the degree pro
grams that some other sister institutions had.
couldn't attract the same quality students.

so we

Now that we have

not only the Bachelor of Arts degree, but the Bachelor of

(9)

BRE:

Science in Music Therapy, Bachelor of Science in Music Education, and a Bachelor of Music degree, we can attract the very
best students, or are trying to attract the very best students.
But that's been a hard road to hoe.

There were many years

where, probably the first 15 years, we had a very difficult
time convincing the administration that music was and needed to
be a prominent department on the campus.
BRO:

They didn't think it was a serious study?

BRE:

No, I don't think so.

No.

I think, my memory is that at

that time we had probably English majors.

We certainly had

Speech and Theater, but mostly we had Elementary Education
majors and Physical Education majors.
for the arts to become prominent.

So it took a long time

I think the Art Department

was growing along concurrently as we grew, too.

Bob Crayne

came at the same time I did.
BRO:

But you got a music building.

BRE:

Yes.

Which was really supposed to be a fine arts building.

That building was originally designed for art, music and
theater, but between the time it was conceived and it came
to be, there was only enough money.

The money had shrunk

enough, the value of the money had shrunk enough that
they had to choose one, and they chose music, and I believe
that was because we were in West Hall and the band was
rehearsing.

The only room large enough for the band was

(10)
BRE:

on the second floor and I think they thought the kids
were going to come right through the floor, if I'm not
mistaken.

So that's why I believe we got the building.

was a real practical choice.

It

We were in danger.

BRO:

Especially if you had a heavy instrument.

BRE:

Yes.

Can you imagine the band rehearsing on the second

floor of West Hall.

They did.

It was very, very loud.

I

wasn't chair then, and I wasn't in on all the conversations
that went on when we were chosen to get the building, but we
were very fortunate.

That's been a great boon to us. Just to

bring students and parents here to see the building is a
real plus.

Many of our sister institutions don't have

facilities that compare with ours.
BRO:

Now that sends a message.

BRE:

Yes.

It's a very nice building.

The recital hall is magnificent.

players love to play there.

Even the symphony

They will ask to come back

just because they like to play there, which is very nice.
BRO:

That's really nice.

It's seems to me that music as a field

is very welcoming or at least it is accepting of women, so
there are so many very fine musicians, and well even major
symphonies have a great number of young women now.
BRE:

That's relatively recent though.

BRO:

Yes, that's true.

BRE:

Ten years, fifteen years.

(11)
BRO:

Ten years, fifteen years.

That's true as the old men have

died off, I guess, women have come in.
BRE:

Women have been given a chance.

BRO:

So I wonder if that reflected in the way women were accepted
in your department as contrasted perhaps to other departments
on the rest of campus?

BRE:

Where there aren't so many?

BRO:

Where the field is hostile or anti-women?

BRE:

Well, now that's interesting because in one sense you're right.
There are a lot of women in music.

In another sense, music is

a very traditional discipline and there are some aspects of
music where women are not yet equal.
BRO:

Such as?

BRE:

Conducting.

BRO:

Oh, true.

BRE:

Is one, and we prepare students to teach in public schools.
You see very few women band directors.

That's still a very

male oriented place.

So you see female

The high school.

choral directors, but fewer band directors, and that's still
the top job in most high schools. And jazz.

The field of jazz

is very male oriented. So we have a long way to go.

We have a

long way to go. I tend to think that we're more integrated as a
faculty because of the attitude of Clair Swope way back then.
I mean he was willing to hire women, and in fact, made a point
of hiring women.

(12)
BRO:

I'm so glad to hear that.

That's so rare.

BRE:

And therefore, we always had women and didn't have to struggle
as much to get women in the department as other departments.
I wonder if you went around the state if you would find a
department that's like ours. At least a third of ours is women.
I couldn't even tell you the exact number.

I'd have to sit

here and count on my fingers, but nevertheless, I think we
have more women in our department than most.

We have a

higher percentage of women in our department than most
music departments do, and that's because it started that way.
And women are more apt to hire women or at least a balanced
committees lends itself to a more broad viewpoint.
BRO:

You can always remind the men, well we don't have enough
women on this committee.

BRE:

Yes, or I can recall at one point we were going to hire
someone and I can remember one of the men on the search committee talking about how powerful and forceful and using
all these male terms to describe this one candidate, and the
women very quickly said, oh, wait a minute, is that really
what we want.

There's been a lot of turmoil because of that,

but I think it's produced a pretty good department.
BRO:

Oh, I agree. It's an outstanding department.

BRE:

But if you would speak to some of the younger women in the
department, you'll find that they've had a rough time.

(13)
BRE:

They've had a rough row to hoe, and probably feel more
empowered in the department in the last few years than they
ever did before.

BRO:

And that's because you're chair.

BRE:

No, that's because, I think, our administration has accepted
women a lot better than they did before.

BRO:

Finally.

BRE:

I think this administration has focused enough attention on
women that the climate has changed, the attitude has changed.
I still think we have a long way to go, but we've certainly
made progress.

BRO:

What kinds of things remain to be done when you say we have
a long way to go?

BRE:

Well, I think that we're paying a lot of lip service to
integrating women and minorities into the culture, but I don't
think we have enough young faculty who literally live that to
really make the difference yet.

I think the older folks know

how to talk about it, and they know what they're supposed to
think, but when it comes right down to action, they don't act
like what they say they believe.
BRO:

Old habits.

BRE:

Yes.

They're very hard.

understandable.

Yes, and that's, I guess it's

It'll just take time.

I still sit with

administrators who shake their fingers when they get angry.
It's a very paternalistic kind of attitude.

(14)
BRO:

Being chivalrous in some ways, not wanting to burden women.

BRE:

Well they know better.

BRO:

Well, sure, or they know what they ought to be doing.
But the women themselves, I think, by being active have
helped to solve a lot of these problems.

BRE:

Absolutely.

BRO:

And there are still some who don't want to get into this.

BRE:

And that I really can't understand.

I've thought about that

and I don't understand why more women don't get involved.
However, I must say that I've gotten a lot of calls from
women who say, I'm really glad you're president of the union.
I'd like to participate in some way.

I'd like to do something.

Of course I get call from men, too, but I think it's kind of
nice that women feel more comfortable perhaps participating.
BRO:

And they have participated?

They have been active and produc-

tive, and continue to be.
BRE:

Yes. Several of us who have been active for a long time in the
APSCUF legislative assembly would meet during the time of the
assembly and talk about issues that were critical to women,
and out of that has grown in APSCUF a gender issues committee.
So right now all 14 state universities have a gender issues
committee, and recently someone from the state office called
and asked us to send them the complement on all of our committees, male and female.

So they are looking into how many

(15)
BRE:

women are involved on campuses which is going to look very
good for Slippery Rock.

I think they'll discover that we

gave more than most campuses do.

Indiana was having a terrible

time getting anybody to come to legislative assembly because
the women viewed it as a group of grey-haired old men.

Well,

the only way to change that is to go and insert yourself in
there somewhere and then it won't be grey-haired old men
any more.
BRO:

And when you are there as women, you're accepted more?

You

see I was in earlier APSCUF legislative assemblies and
it was as if we didn't even cast a shadow.

It was first

of all coming from the western part of the state, we weren't
very important, and women, unless you wanted, you could or
would spend so much of your time in Harrisburg like Wilma
[Cavill], God bless her, who made an impact. So this group
that's looking into the women, the gender issue.
BRE:

Gender balancing if you will.

BRO:

And they are having some impact?

BRE:

Yes, they are.

We have a new president now, too, and he's

a little more forward thinking than the last president.

I

appreciate what you said though about assembly because I
went for many years wondering what I was doing there except
that finally I got invited to be on the negotiations team,
and was very quickly aware that I was the only women on the

(16)

BRE:

team, and then I was even more aware that what I was saying
wasn't being heard. So I had a choice then, and that was
either to just slink away with my tail between my legs or
to make a fuss.

So I chose to make a fuss.

BRO:

Good for you.

BRE:

And so I made a speech about the fact that I thought that
we were very ineffective.

I don't know that I even said

at that time that there should have been more women on the team
because my point was bigger than that.

My point was that there

just weren't enough voices coming from anywhere representing
all of us on that team. I mean I tend to think that was one of
the things that made people pay attention. At least I was going
to be a thorn in their side.
and not say anything.

I wasn't just going to sit back

So for whatever it was worth I felt

better.
BRO:

We felt better, too. It was very much appreciated.

BRE:

That was fun.

BRO:

Was it really fun?

BRE:

I think they were very angry with me.
The men.

Very upset.

The men.

Leadership was indignant that I would get up and

do that, but I'll tell you there are twice as many women in
leadership positions now in APSCUF.

And I'm hoping that

they all get up, and they are getting up and saying things
now.

So I'm sure that's just a process that had to evolve.

(17)
BRE:

What was really nice about that though was that Bill Taylor
and Wilma and Steve Gagliardo were very supportive of what
I was doing.

I didn't feel like I was there by myself.

I would have done it even if I had been because I was so
angry, but they made me feel like I was doing a good thing.
BRO:

That big speech was before the whole assembly?

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

Not just before the negotiations committee?

BRE:

No, that was before the whole assembly, and I wasn't invited
up there.

I just went up on the dais and did it.

I don't

know how I did that either, but Marty Morand almost kissed
my feet afterwards.

Oh, he was so excited.

But they had

become a really stodgy old group, and needed to be shaken
up.
BRO:

Well, I think, it was stodgy when it started except for Marty
and Dick Hazley.

BRE:

Yes.

Well, college professors tend to be very stodgy.

why we need some women, lots more women.

That's

They're not stodgy

as long as they don't try to model the men, then they can be
very stodgy, I guess.
BRO:

The women can be also?

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

What role models are they following?

BRE:

Exactly.

If they deny their best instincts.

(18)

BRO:

So if a young woman comes to Slippery Rock and is looking
for some advice, what would you tell her?

BRE:

About leadership or about getting involved?

BRO:

Yes.

BRE:

Well, it's the only way to get a real picture of education,
I think, to get out and mingle among different departments.
I learned so much by getting out of my own department.
mean an amazing amount.
think.

I

I learned about how philosophers

How people from different disciplines view things,

and I think I have a pretty good grasp now of how the campus
works.

Otherwise I would have never known all those kinds

of things.
BRO:

Easy enough to stay in your own department and do your
own work.

I mean that's more than a full-time job anyway,

but now you have to find time for this activity. It's an
obligation.
BRE:

Well, I think so. Yes, that's one thing. It certainly is
an obligation, and that's a very serious matter, but it's
also the only way you can get a total picture, and you can't
operate just in your little area or you don't have any idea
of what you're doing.
to somehow.

You just don't have anything to respond

You're not plugged into anything. And I think

that's where women have many more gifts.

I think women tend

to communicate in a holistic way a lot better than men do.

(19)
BRE:

And I tend to think, as my son said after, let's see, which
election was it.
ran?

Oh gosh, was it the one where Lynn Yeakel

Was it a primary election not too long ago.

and said, did you vote?

I called him

He said, yes, I voted for all women.

And then my husband came home and I said, did you vote?
he said, yes, I voted for all women.

And

He said, I figured the

men have screwed things up long enough I'm going to vote for
women now. But I do think women have a better grasp of the
whole picture, and tend to see things a lot better.
picture a lot better.

The whole

So I think they need to be out there

so they can get the whole picture, so they know what they
are doing.

But perhaps more importantly it is a committment.

You do have to try to better the situation.
BRO:

You said that one of the early presidents was such a sensitive
person, and you appreciated that.

How about other than that

person, talk about the administration of the college, and we
can restrict this if you wish.
BRE:

I don't think we've been blessed with great administrators,
which is too bad.

Perhaps our most effective administrator

has been Bob Aebersold, and he certainly enjoys great popularity because he's a genuinely nice guy. But gosh, I don't even
remember who they were, and I sure wouldn't call them, and
they were all guys.
too many of them.

I don't think, and I don't even remember
I really steered very clear, I think, of

(20)

BRE:

most of them.

And you know I even wonder if I would've

run for APSCUF president had Bob not been such a nice
person.

I mean I knew I'd be working with a pretty congenial

administration.

Although I probably would have run anyway.

BRO:

It was the right time.

BRE:

It was the right time, yes.

BRO:

You lived through carter, Watrel.

BRE:

I got into some terrible things with those people.

Can I tell

one real wonderful story?
BRO:

sure, please do.

BRE:

When Watrel was President, one of our now retired colleagues
was dean, and they decided that the Music Department needed to
be upgraded, and so they, this was just before the contract at
the end of the 1960's.
In 1968.

Is that right?

It was definitely Watrel.

When did carter leave?

He was president then.

So they were going to ask Clair Swope to resign. Certainly
as chair, and hire a chair for the department.
powerful chair.
high.

A real

That was the word that came down from on

So Clair was sent a letter, and they hired a guy who

came in, and he said a lot of things, of course, while he was
here, but he was the real powerful guy.
were calling him.

Organizer, they

A real organizer. That was it.

going to get things really organized.

They were

They hired this guy,

we happened to have a party for him while he was here, he told

(21)

BRE:

the story about taking his choir to Russia, having taken his
choir to Russia, and the really great thing was that they paid
fifty cents apiece for plastic raincoats and took a whole
bunch of them to Russia and sold them for five dollars or
something like that.

He told that story as if that were a

big accomplishment, and I can remember saying to people,
if you hire that man, you're crazy, and they did because
he was an organizer.

Okay.

So that's exactly what he did.

The next year he came into the department, and music departments have big budgets because of all the organizations and
all the activity. He got control of all the budgets in the
department, and incidentally, he had his own little publishing
company, so he worked a deal whereby he would order everything
for the department through his little publishing company
through which he got some kind of discount because he was a
publisher. But the University, unbeknownst to them, was paying
full price, and he was keeping the proceeds or whatever you
call it, the difference.

We discovered it.

He was here only

one year because we discovered that, that our organizer was of
course doing just what he said what he was going do, organizing, and making lots of money off the University, and we took
this to the administration.
companies.
bills.

We said, look we've called the

We know what's going on here.

We've got the boxes.

We've have the

We got the whole business.

The

(22)

BRE:

administration told us to keep it quiet, not to tell anybody
about it, but that they would confront him, and get rid of him.
Which they did.
a court hearing.
what happened.

Of course he sued the University and we had
We had some kind of a hearing.

No, no, I'm sorry, that's not true.

fired five faculty members that first year.
tenured people.

Oh, I know

Just wiped them out.

in all his friends.

The organizer.

He also

All the non-

He was going to bring
So he did.

He fired

those people, and this was the year before the contract, and
somehow these people were allowed to grieve. Steve Glinsky was
fired at that time, too, and I remember Steve and Jerry Cox, a
friend of ours. I think the new union was taking them on
or allowing them to grieve or whatever.
was a hearing.
it even further.

Well, anyhow, there

This is where our administration comes into
They didn't want to disclose this scandal

about the money because they didn't want an audit, and so
they told us not to say anything about that at this hearing.
So we knew that their lawyers would never allow it to be
brought up, and they'd control the questioning.
wonderful.

So this was

This is one of my funniest stories about Slippery

Rock and the powers of the administration.

So we were in this

hearing, and everybody was present. The President, and the
Vice-president, Jim Roberts, and lots of people from various
departments and so on, and the whatever he was.

He was not

(23)

BRE:

a lawyer, but he was from Duquesne Law School, and he was the
listener.

I don't know whatever he did.

He was the mediator

I guess.
BRO:

Arbitrator.

BRE:

Arbitrator, yes. Okay.

Well, he was arbitrating the whole

thing. Well, anyhow, they wanted to know about the chairperson. So they started asking me questions about the chair.
BRO:

And in what capacity where you there?

BRE:

I was invited by the faculty member who was grieving to be
a spokesperson.

And so the lawyer for the state said, well,

tell me about so and so.

And so I said, well, you know thus

and so, and I said, he's immoral.

And, of course, the guy

immediately assumed that I meant that he made a pass at me.
could see it.

I could just see it.

does that mean?

I

And he said, well, what

And I said, he stole money from the Univer-

sity. And it was absolutely wonderful.
tration was going to go under the table.

I thought the adminisI mean they were

really horrified that I would mention that.

And, of course,

they yelled, strike it from the record and everything.

So I

don't think we've been blessed with very good administrations.
Now we have a good one.
BRO:

Not much courage.

BRE:

No, and not enough respect for faculty.

That whole thing was

botched so badly that they literally ruined peoples' lives with

(24)

BRE:

some of their actions, and didn't care.

That's why I

was one of the first members of the union.

I mean I was

standing right there waiting to sign up after I saw that.
That was terrible.
BRO:

There were so many bad stories about that time.

There were

people who were fired because they had beards, because they
took their classes outside.
publication.
BRE:

Those were the stories for

No protection.

Yes, and I can still see scars on those people who went
through that.

Who suffered because of that.

jobs because of that.

Who lost their

We lost several very, very nice people

who were totally demoralized by that experience.

The kind of

academics who are real sensitive, dedicated people who just
don't ever think something like that's going to happen
to them in their life.
BRO:

It wasn't supposed to happen.

BRE:

No, it wasn't supposed to happen is right.

BRO:

And then after Watrel we went on into that interim period where
we had, I ought to know these presidents but I don't, the one
who came from Mansfield for a short time.

BRE:

Played the saxophone. One night, I don't know what he had done.
I forget.

He wasn't here long enough to make a great impres-

sion, but Terry Steele invited him to play with the Jazz Band
and he got up on stage and some students booed him and he

{25)

BRE:

turned around and gave them the finger.

BRO:

What a beautiful example.

BRE:

For a college president.

BRO:

Just being one of the kids.

BRE:

One of the boys, I guess.

BRO:

So until Dr. Aebersold you don't think that they were much.

BRE:

With the exception of John Edwards.

BRO:

Okay.

BRE:

He was a gentleman.

How do you like that.
One of the boys.
Disgusting.

A real gentleman, and a very interested

person, but he's really the only one that I mentioned.
BRO:

But through this time did you have financial support?

You

said that music departments are expensive.
BRE:

Yes, I think we did.

Yes.

I think we did because through most

of that period Clair Swope was just a real stickler.
been president of state PMEA.

Was very well-known.

He had
And he

was just constantly working angles to get what he wanted.
was a very effective person.

He

Although after that incident,

he had a stroke, and he's never been well since, and finally
had to retire.
scene.

He probably would have anyhow after that whole

That was very sad.

BRO:

Do you have some particular notes that we skipped?

BRE:

Just a couple of neat things.

I was looking back because

even though I've had a wonderful time learning and growing
through this department of mine, I realized that I don't have

(26)

BRE:

the same kind of, gosh, how do I say this? I don't have
everyone's support as I did at one time.
look through an old evaluation.

And I happened to

This is probably from from

1979 or 1980, and I was noticing in it.
BRO:

This is a peer evaluation?

BRE:

This is a peer evaluation.

one of our five year things.

And

it says, although her efforts do not stand out like those of
a conductor of a performing organization, they're extremely
important.

She not only does not receive much recognition for

her contributions, but also does not seek public recognition.
I think that was a message.

I think at one point at that time

since I had not stepped forward and not assumed any leadership
roles, I just did my job very well, that was like a little pat
on the head saying, you're doing a good job. Now just be quiet
and behave yourself.

That's conjecture, but I tend to think

there's a message in there somewhere.
BRO:

And that's what galvanized you?

BRE:

Well, it started.

That's what pushed you?

No, I'm not sure it did.

I think what

changed was a couple of things made me think more about
responsibilities, leadership responsibilities, I guess.
One was that my children were getting older so I just had
more discretionary time.

And another was that I knew I had

to get a divorce, and so I just had to screw up all my
courage and do some kinds of things I hadn't done before.

(27)

BRE:

And I reached 45 and thought, now look, it's now or never, so
we're going to do this because what do we have to lose?
Absolutely nothing.

And so that's how things changed, but

I was interested to go back and read that again because I
truly think there was a message in there.
public recognition.
BRO:

Does not seek

That was like, wow, good girl.

That was a very thoughtful comment of your colleague, and
generally I think they're not so analytical as that.

We're

fortunate that it had the result that it did.
BRE:

Yes, quite right.
Other than that, I don't know if any of this other stuff is
important. I just brought it to kind of refresh my memory
because as I started out saying I'm not a backward thinking
person. I do happen to keep all this stuff in one place, but
I don't go back. I haven't looked at all this for a long time.
I guess I look at it every five years when I go to write
another evaluation because I'm so interested in futuristic
kinds of things more than going backwards. But it is kind of
fun to look at things.
It's good to look and see the kinds of things that have
shaped you as you've gone along.
most interesting.

That's what I think is

And it's also very reassuring to go back

and see that you did do a lot of things while you raised
your children, and thought you perhaps weren't doing as

(28)

BRE:

much as you do now.

I always feel like I'm doing more now,

too much, sometimes and I think, oh,dear, but I think I
always did a lot of things.
BRO:

Tell us about some of those things.

BRE:

Well, I'm noticing here that in addition to teaching,
I can't even remember very well doing this, I
organized some opera workshops because I realized that our
students weren't getting much in the way of opera.

so I

brought opera people in to do workshops for the voice students.
Pittsburgh chamber opera residency.
BRO:

Mildred Miller's group.

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

Oh, those were wonderful groups.

BRE:

Yes.

We did that several times.

forgotten about that.

That was really fun.

I had

That seems like such a long time.

I

barely remember doing that.
BRO:

I remember that.

One of those singers was Paula Signorino

that I happened to know when she was a little girl.
BRE:

And then I think through APSCUF I got interested in the
Faculty Development Council in Harrisburg.

The state system

council that came about after we became a system. That
was incredible growing experience, and a real supportive
experience because Emily Hanna, our vice-chancellor who
just retired, and Suzanne Brown, her associate, are very

(29)

BRE:

strong women, and brilliant, both of them in different ways,
but both brilliant, and they were so wonderful to work
with.

That was the source of a lot of my strength because

they not only ran an organization where you felt totally
empowered to do whatever.

Whatever it was.

Whether it was

designing a summer academy for faculty to learn how to teach
better or whether it was designing rfp's for grants or whether
it was writing goals for the council which I was charged with
once, with running a sub-council that would write goals for
the whole council.

They just allowed you the opportunity to

collaborate with colleagues and be as creative as you wanted to
be, and it was an amazing source of strength. I'm sure they are
both incredible teachers. I know they're both incredible
teachers, and they were very, very formative, I think, for me.
During the time that I worked on the council, I was the
Slippery Rock faculty representative.

There is an administra-

tive representative and a faculty representative from each
campus.

So there were 28 people on this council.

And so it

was just a wonderful place to test ideas. Incidentally, the
group was gender balanced from the beginning. That was the
first thing that I noticed.

So women had a strong voice, and

they ran the council, these two women, so obviously the female
voice was very strong.

From the beginning of my work on the

council, they encouraged any kind of viewpoint that you wanted

(30)

BRE:

to bring forward.

I can remember once bringing forward the

viewpoint that if we weren't proactive about grant proposals,
then we'd just get a lot of disciplinary, scholarly grants.
And I thought that they could probably get disciplinary,
scholarly grants somewhere else. But I thought that this
council needed to be a teacher or be proactive as well as
reactive and so I brought that idea forward and thought that
we should have these special project grants for bigger issues,
broader issues.

That took a lot of courage because I had no

idea. I was just looking at 28 people I didn't know very well,
but Anne Griffiths was there, and so I knew Anne would support
it.

We took a vote.

So anytime that I felt successful on the council, I think
anytime you have success, of course, that just feeds your
desire, so that council became just an incredibly powerful
vehicle for me.
BRO:

Are you still active?

BRE:

No. I gave it up when I became the APSCUF president because
it meant reading about a hundred grants a year.

Oh, it was

a tremendous amount of work, and I thought it was time for
somebody else in the University to have that experience.
It's invaluable experience, but I got a letter last summer
from Suzanne.

Oh, I know what I was going to tell you before

I get into that.

During that period when I was on the council ,

(31)

BRE:

I was also on the negotiating team and so the Chancellor's
negotiator brought merit pay to the table, and there were
a couple of us on the negotiations team at the time, and we
decided to take merit pay which we thought was an antiquated
idea and turn it into professional development.

So we took

the money that they would have given in merit pay and put it
into professional development, and I got this letter from
Suzanne then afterwards.

She said, we should probably thank

you for the council's continuing existence for six years now.
Had it not been for your good work on the collective bargaining team, who knows what might have happened to us.

Not

only have you been a major advocate as a charter member, you've
been a tremendous influence on shaping the council.

Its

formal structure, processes, norms, expectations of members,
all of which evolved very postively, I think, because of the
leadership example and commitment of a handful of people.
You were one of those key people.

At the end of that

paragraph she says, thanks too for helping make it fun.
That was, I thought, what the women brought to that group.
We had lots of fun exchanging ideas and that was what made
it fun because there were so many ideas, and it was just
extremely exciting, and we would laugh and laugh and laugh
a whole lot.

That was an incredible experience, and

probably the most valuable and certainly the most reassuring

-32-

BRE:

or whatever you want to call it.

When you know you have

the support of the Vice-chancellor who you think is an
incredible woman, and her associate and you can actually
work with them, that is really empowering.
incredible amounts of power.
didn't like unions.

You bring back

I also knew that Emily Hanna

So one day I thought, well, I've got

to find out what's wrong.

Why she doesn't like unions.

so I said, Emily, tell me about your feelings about unions.
I said, I'm very involved in the union, and I really believe
in it.

She turned and looked at me and said, oh, Kate, we

don't have to talk about it.

BRO:

If I were you, I'd be doing

exactly what you're doing.

So that was the end of that.

thought that was good too.

It felt really good.

I

It sounds as if that committee, that group, worked so well.
There was such cooperation. Nobody was trying to outdo anybody
else.

BRE:

It's the best kind of a group.

The best kind.

And it was deans and faculty.

know who was who.

You didn't

There was no way to tell who was who because

you just had a name.

You were just Kate Brennan at the table

or Bill Jones.
BRO:

Working for the whole system or the state.

BRE:

Yes, it was.

It is.

It is beautiful.

That's beautiful.

I hope it continues to

be that good but that was Emily Hanna's dream, and she made it
work.

She has a wonderful sense of humor.

Very droll.

-33-

BRO:

So there's somebody at state level who was a very influential
person and a woman in your life.

BRE:

Yes, and see I think it really took a woman to bring faculty
development into the prominent role that it needs.

BRO:

Well, it's permanent now.

BRE:

It's permament as long as we continue to negotiate to fund it.
But what hasn't happened yet is that we still don't see
faculty in a career development mode.

We need to not only

hire people to do something, but then we need to nurture their
lives all the way along.

In other words, if they come in as

the band director and they discover that they don't want to
do band directing after five years, they need to be allowed to
grow and change and evolve as we all do in our lives, and so
I think this whole concept of faculty development is a nurturing process of helping people through their lives.

Helping

people do what they need to do throughout their lives.
BRO:

That's so interesting.

It's an extension of what we're

supposed to be doing for students.
BRE:

But we don't do it for faculty. We're not nice to them. We
don't say, what do you want to do next year?

What would you

like to do, and what do you need to do it?
BRO:

such an important concept, and so logical. That's this kind
of institution.

Why aren't we doing it?

vice-president of faculty development.

You should be

-34-

BRE:

Well, we desperately need somebody in that role or something
like that because we just ignore lives in a way.

We just

expect people to continue to do what they've been doing,
and everything we know, of course, makes that virtually
impossible.

We all get bored.

We want to change.

Need to

be able to slip in and out of administrative roles or not
if we don't want to or whatever we want, but I think
people need to move.

And that's why faculty development

was so exciting to me because people were writing projects
for themselves.

What could be more exciting than supporting

people's projects for themselves?
anything that's more fun.

I

just can't think of

You don't even know who they are

and you're reading these things and thinking, oh, yes, this
is really neat.
doing.

Just to see people alive and thinking and

It's the same as you would do in a classroom as

you say. You made the connection.

We do it with students.

We expect them to grow and change and go through projects
and yet we don't do the same thing for faculty.
BRO:

Have you seen some positive results on this campus from some
of this development?

BRE:

Yes.

Well, of course, the people who have been awarded grants

have obviously done their projects, completed their projects,
and that in itself is extremely exciting.

I have to mention

Nora Ambrosio because she's gotten about six or seven grant

-35-

BRE:

awards.

I don't know how many.

This is the first year she

didn't get one, but the University funded hers.

But Nora is

a bright, extremely talented, dedicated young woman who always
has a project.

There's always something cooking, and in a

few short years she has taken that dance department from here
to here.

Had she not been getting those grant awards, I'm not

sure she'd still be here.

Not only did she get grant awards

to keep her happy, to feed her artistic nature, but Slippery
Rock is now known as Nora's campus. Our reputation is enhanced
immensely.
BRO:

In Pittsburgh dance groups.

BRE:

Yes, absolutely.

BRO:

And for the City Theater.

BRE:

So the whole campus image has been raised by Nora and many
others, of course, but she happens to have received more than
anybody else.

Nelson Ng has gotten several in technology

that are incredibly wonderful.

See I believe that we need to

be rewarding our good people for projects.

I don't believe

that we just hand them $2,000 and say, here, you're wonderful.
But I think these projects deserve recognition, and in a sense
that is what we're doing.

We're giving them some money to do a

project, and that helps everybody.
BRO:

Those are self-starters.

BRE:

Yes, they are.

That enhances everybody.

Those people.

-36-

BRO:

The ones you were talking about before need help to get
in gear.

BRE:

Yes, they do. We need to get to them.

As you say, some

people come right to the front right away. Others require
a little more nurturing or a little more help. The faculty
development committee on campus right now is working. This
was mostly Roy Stewart's idea. This was when Roy and I
co-chaired the campus committee because we were the state
representatives. We incorporated all the former college faculty
development committees.

So it was, I think, four people

elected from each college. So the committee is 16 or 20 people.
So we split into subgroups so we could not only evaluate grants
but evaluate them and send them back to people, and say,
rewrite this and do this and we don't understand that and
so on.

So that's exactly what that committee is doing now.

They are preparing better grants.

We're helping faculty to

prepare better grants and I think that's working because
last year we got more grants than we've ever gotten before.
So as far as grants go, I think we've done a really good
job, but there's a lot more work to do in faculty development.
A lot.

A foreign faculty member who happens to be on the

faculty development committee right now, asked one day in
a meeting, when we were ever going to do something for new
faculty because he felt so out of it here.

So this year,

-37-

BRE:

this summer, the provost has asked me to organize some people
to put together a yearlong mentoring and orientation program
for new faculty.

I think that's a wonderful idea.

another thing that needs to be done.
part of the campus.

People need to feel a

I think we do a very bad job of that,

and particularly for foreign professors.
job for foreign professors.
and they don't.

That's

We do a terrible

We just expect them to understand

The most wonderful thing happened.

One day

one of our senior male faculty members was standing at the
counter in our office, and I watched three people go by
him.

The first one was a young, white, male guy who had

come through music school just the way the older guy had.
Then I saw a woman come through, and then I saw a foreign
professor come through, and the reactions were all different,
and wonderful to observe.

When the first guy came through,

they said, hey, how you doing, so-and-so.
kept on going.

Yea, okay, and

When the woman came through, the older, male

professor said, hello so-and-so.

Then when the foreign

professor came through there was no exchange whatsoever.
BRO:

Didn't even see him.

BRE:

Didn't even see him.

And I thought, oh, I wish I'd had that

on tape because that's exactly what happens.

That's the way

they feel, like nobody sees them and they're not listening.
And they are different.

They do things differently.

And they

-38-

BRE:

get penalized for it because nobody understands.
them why.

BRO:

Nobody asks

I could go on and on.

I think a mentor is a marvelous idea.

Take someone under your

wing.
BRE:

That's what I suggested last year.
faculty.

My first speech to the

I said, never has it been more crucial that we do

a good job of mentoring and evaluating our new faculty.
During the years leading to tenure, new faculty need to understand our standards of performance in regards to teaching,
scholarly work and service.
excellence?

How else can we strive for

The kind of mentoring, though, I'm referring

to requires personal interaction, caring and support, given
in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
listening than talking.
time.

It requires more

Many of us have been around a long

My challenge to you is to adopt a new faculty member.

You'll find it invigorating, revitalizing, and you might
even learn a thing or two.
enemy.

What ever you do, don't be the

Because that's exactly what's happening.

A lot of

new faculty feel like the senior faculty are the enemy.
Because they are not listening to them.
BRO:

Now you are asking them to do that.
that in a formalized way?

Is there a plan to do

-39-

BRE:

That may grow out of this group.

Yes, I hope that grows out

of this group because you know how difficult the whole
diversity thing is.
BRO:

Absolutely.

BRE:

But unless we start to listen to people.

These people

are here a few months and the first thing you do is go into
their classroom and write a peer evaluation, and you write
it just the way you wrote it for Jack Smith who went to your
school.

But this guy might have gone to Hong Kong and they're

different.

A whole different philosophy of teaching.

We don't even know how to evaluate those people.
know the first thing about how they think.

We don't

That drives me

nuts.
BRO:

And the fact that it's really an enriching experience for the
students because it's different from what they've had with all
these other clones.

BRE:

But the students are more intolerant than the faculty. So-andso doesn't give weekly quizzes like everybody else.

Because

our students have been conditioned to expect certain kinds of
performance.

And they are intolerant.

One day in a faculty

meeting in my own department, we were writing goals.

The

provost had asked us to write goals, and I said, we need to
have a goal to diversify the department.

Maybe I used the

word multicultural, I don't remember exactly what it was, and

-40-

BRE:

a faculty member looked at me and said, well, we have
Jooyong (Ahn). And he was right there in the room.

Very sad.

BRO:

But you don't get discouraged?

BRE:

No, I don't because there are more pluses than there are
minuses.
pathetic.

There are just those few minuses, and they're
They're just pathetic.

is so-and-so so miserable.

People say to me, why

I say, because he's miserable.

His whole life is miserable.

How could you expect him to

be different when it comes to school?
faculty development is important.
person's life is miserable.

But that's why

It's a shame that that

Maybe had we helped him along.

Then just the other day, an administrator said to me, well,
you'll be getting some retirements in your department and
then you can do thus and so, and all these things I want to
do.

You know you could give so-and-so a terrible schedule,

and then so-and-so would have to retire.
way.

I said, never, no

That poor person, as miserable as he or she is, they

don't deserve that, and I'll never do that.
It's just cruel.

Never do that.

But that's a real administrative mind set.

Give them a lousy schedule.

Get them out of here.

BRO:

But that person has given his or her life to Slippery Rock.

BRE:

Right.

BRO:

And should have had help.

The kind you're talking about.

How about some people that have impressed you.

Some other

-41-

BRO:

than, you talked about Emily Hanna and Suzanne Brown, John
Edwards, and you did talk a little about Bob Aebersold.
I was wondering whether there were some women.
on our subject.

But

Getting back

Doesn't have to be women, but who here do

you think has been important?
BRE:

Well, certainly Wilma Cavill because Wilma was the first person
who suggested that I could have a leadership role in APSCUF.
She has been extremely gracious.

Because you know Wilma.

She

would like to be in control, but she hasn't meddled in my
presidency which is amazing.

I think that says a lot for her

because it must be hard for her not to do that, but she hasn't
been meddlesome at all.
BRO:

No, I think she's proud of what you're doing.

BRE:

Yes, and that's delightful.
Griffiths is another one.

That is delightful.

And Anne

Anne and I don't agree, but we

are the same personality type so we have a lot in common and
we just fall over laughing because we have some of the same
personality traits, but hers are geared more toward being a
boss than mine.

So those people and then all the women.

All

the women that I come in contact with because I see them
in various stages of evolution, and so I feel that if I keep
going then they'll come along too, I think.

If I suggest

things for them to read, the women in my department particularly I'm thinking of, if I suggest things for them to read or

-42-

BRE:

if I do something that's a little bit outrageous then I think
it gives them the incentive to do the same.

BRO:

What sorts of things?

Can you give some examples of things

that Anne Griffiths has done?

How she has influenced you or

the college.
BRE:

Anne likes projects.
And that's mostly it.

Anne likes to dream and think and scheme.
She has a very inquisitive mind, and

we served together on this Faculty Development Council at the
beginning.

It was Anne and I who went for three years and then

Roy Stewart and I who went for three years.
first dean, and so we drove together.

So she was the

Of course Anne drove.

And so we would just talk about things the whole way down and
the whole way back, and she is a very supportive friend. Any
particular problem that you happen to have she'll try and help
you figure out.

She gives your problems importance I guess is

what I'm trying to say, and helps you with them.
BRO:

Good to have someone like that in administration.

BRE:

Oh, yes, absolutely.

And of course I've always had immense

respect for Leona Parascenzo.

Leona's heart is always in

right place, and if she can work with Anne then that even
gives more, that gives Anne more credibility.

I think Anne

is a very interesting study, and I don't know a whole lot
about working with her at school.

A lot of our interaction

was social and then we weren't working on our own projects

-43-

BRE:

down there, we were working on the council's projects.

So

we were on an equal par there working together with all those
people.

So I guess I knew her in a pretty unique way.

tell you something else.

I forgot this.

I'll

Somehow when

critical thinking became the big buzzword, six years ago or
whatever it was, I can't remember how it all happened, but
I got involved with the people in the education department.
This was when Anne was still Dean of Education, and we
formed, under Anne's guidance and with her money, we formed
a critical thinking faculty group.

We had the most wonderful

Saturday morning sessions where we would come together and
talk about how you do critical thinking in your particular
discipline because I think it's discipline specific.

So

Padma Anand and Carolyn Prorok and Jenny Lindsay and Larry
Cobb and I and Wilma.
first.

Those are the people I think of

We had this critical thinking group which just talked

about how to get students to think critically in a classroom.
And Anne supported that from the getgo.
about that.

She was so excited

Then she would invite people in from public

school systems, and we would all get together and talk.

That

was a very exciting project. It went on for several years.
I believe that all of my interests in all these things has to
do with a deep, abiding love in teaching.
teach. I love the interaction.

I

just love to

In fact, I have kind of decided

-44-

BRE:

that the reason I got into music was because it was so interactive, and so much a doing kind of thing.

I've always felt, and

I worked with Bob Macoskey and Bob Crayne a lot on this, we
wanted to get some kind of a liberal arts integrated course
going that would not only focus on knowing but on doing.
used to have great talks.

Oh, I miss him.

We

Bob Macoskey.

But we would have great talks about how the liberal arts
curriculum should be shaped, and what role the arts played,
and I was always the one saying, but we have to talk about
what they're going to do in these classes, not just sit there
like sponges.

So it's my doing nature that got me into

music and into all this other leadership stuff because I
really like to do things.
BRO:

I want to give you a compliment.

Our archives assistant

is Jan Larish and when we talked about the fact that you were
coming today, Jan said you were one of her favorite and most
important people in her whole college career.
who came to this college career as an adult.

She's someone
Knew what she

was doing and she said that that was such a difficult semester
but you wouldn't let her quit, and she learned to play the
piano and you did that for her.

You showed her that she could

do something she never thought she could do.
BRE:

I believe that though.

You see.

That's what I think

teaching's all about. Convincing people that they can do things

(45)

BRE:

that they don't think they can do. And also you're so protected.

And I guess anybody in any discipline would say this,

but music is just such an incredibly wonderful thing that how
could you ever go wrong by teaching anybody music? But you have
to make it fit onto that person.

It has to be something they

can do. I just fiercely believe that. That's the hardest part
of teaching. My teaching. But that's the part that I defend the
most. I think it's extremely important that students know about
music but it's even more important that they do it on some
level, and then it becomes a part of them. All of school reform
now says, if you notice, that students need to know and be able
to do. It all says that, and I

just say, yes! Yes, we finally

got there. It's really difficult to take somebody like Jan and
convince them. So I think I got interested in critical thinking
and consequently in faculty development because I saw how this
all connected together. The Faculty Development Council is
all about helping college teachers become better teachers.
And I've always thought that if we could design our classes,
if we could learn how to design our classes, not so much geared
toward what students are going to know when they leave, but
also for what they are going to be able to do when they leave,
then we would have led them that much closer to a critical
thinking viewpoint or mode if you will.
do something you have to think.

Because when you

You have to be involved.

(46)

BRE:

You have to make choices.

You have to do all the processes

that lead to, a lot of the processes anyhow, that lead
to higher order thinking.

I think that the model for teaching,

my model for teaching, maybe the right word, the books use
the word framework for teaching, is a one-on-one private
studio lesson.

When that is done well, it is the most

exhilarating, wonderfully done experience that anyone could
ever ask, and I've even gone so far as to think that maybe,
of course I went through that as a child, I knew that
experience very well because you started piano lessons
when you're a little kid and you have your one lesson every
week. And if you're lucky enough to have a good teacher,
then you develop this incredible relationship with one
other person, and that person becomes your friend and your
teacher, and leads you through this marvelous experience
where you grow. And every aspect of critical thinking is
present in that whole process to the performance.

Amanda

Yale asked us to write for that guidance book that she
gives out to the kids and so I wrote something entitled
''A Valuable Lesson" because not only did I play in all those
recitals in the spring, but when I was little I was very
early in the program.

As I grew older I got to be later

and later in the program, and finally when you're older you're
the last one on the program.

I mean you absolutely grow

(47)

BRE:

through that.

That's all of critically thinking.

Everything

that everybody attributes to critical thinking is right there
in that process.

At the same time, you learn how good you

are because there's always somebody better than you are.
There was always a kid in my neighborhood, who was a football
player incidentally, who could sit down and play "Rhapsody
in Blue" like an angel and I hated him.
early on that I wasn't the best one.

But I had to learn

I had to practice.

It was all about the discipline of practicing.

Every aspect

of critical thinking was present in that, and I feel so
fortunate to have had that experience because it's the best
model for teaching.

I can't imagine a better model for

learning, for teaching and learning but mostly learning.
You just learn an invaluable amount from that experience,
and of course the thrill of performance. Even though I never
aspired to, you know I really didn't want to do that, but
it was a completion of something.

Good or bad you completed

something, and I can still go back and play all that stuff.
It's still there.

So if that isn't a testimony to learning.

can still go back and within a few minutes I can go back and
play all that stuff and that's what we want learning to be
all about.
BRO:

So that process is extremely important to me.

And you can have that kind of experience in your field?

I

(48)

BRE:

I hope so. Yes, I believe you can. That's why people are so
baffled right now because they don't know how, I think, to
design learning experiences that way because our orientation
for learning is not active, but all the research says it
should be. It's not interactive, but all the research says it
should be. It isn't performance oriented, but all the research
says it should be. I think that's what OBE [Outcomes Based
Education] the outcomes based stuff is all about, and the arts
are already doing it. So if the schools were redesigned, the
arts would be right in the hub of the whole thing because
it's inherent in the whole program. It's very exciting. Who
knows if it will ever happen.

BRO:

Well, you're making it happen.

BRE:

It's mind boggling.

BRO:

But if you let yourself be boggled then it'll never get
started.

BRE:

Right.

Exactly.

BRO:

You're going to have to start on something that can be
accomplished. I heard some students talking a while ago. One
said, the trouble with that professor is that he doesn't know
how to teach. He never had an education course in his life.
He knows his subject, but he has no way of getting it across
to us. Is that something that's valid and can it be fixed
or should that be something that we ought to require of an
applicant?

(49)

BRE:

That's what Bob Aebersold is talking about right now, and
I think that's part of why he asked me because I talk so much
about all this stuff. I think that's partly why he and Chuck
Foust asked me to put this mentoring and orientation thing
together. Now if they think we're going to teach everybody how
to teach, oh goodness, that would be a monumental task. But I
think that's some of what they have in mind. They don't know
what they have in mind, but they expect some to do it for them.
But there's no question about the fact that you design a course
just like you design anything else. It literally isn't design.
It needs to be a well thought out, well culled out, so you
throw away a lot of stuff, and dwell on the things that are
going to make people grow or make people learn. I think I've
been relatively successful, relatively successful, with one
discipline, so how would you do that? I mean I have no idea
how to do it with another discipline. I don't. I think that's
what everybody needs to figure out. Writing is one. Well, the
writing people have been working for a long time to do that
very thing. People write and rewrite. Think and rethink and so
on. So writing is a pretty obvious one. There are some disciplines that I don't have any hope for like history.
know how you do history.

I don't

But I've always been fascinated by

why philosophy doesn't teach people how to do their own philosophy before they start teaching them about everybody else's
philosophy.

(50)

BRE:

I couldn't wait in college to take philosophy courses.
Couldn't wait because I love to think and discuss it and
so on, and I was so disappointed when he stood there and
lectured to me about other people's philosophies.
didn't care then.

I really

I probably would have had I had a

jumping off place, but I couldn't get to first base with
that guy.

Bitterly disappointed.

And then I was equally

disappointed when I got on committees with philosophers here
who did the same thing.

Who were the most close-minded,

narrow-minded people I had seen ever in my life with the
exception of Macoskey. I was flabbergasted.
BRO:

They're at the pinnacle, they think.

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

Where did you go to undergraduate school?

BRE:

IUP [Indiana University of Pennsylvania].

BRO:

That was my philosophy experience, too.

BRE:

Really.

BRO:

Very.

BRE:

I could've been a philosophy major easily.

It's really disappointing.

Where you disappointed too.
It was crushing.

loved that.

I would've

Like in this article I wrote for this book.

I said that it was a difficult decision picking a major.
I thought about philosophy and I thought about modern
languages and I ended up in music because I knew I'd be
doing things.

I just needed to be doing something. That was

the most attractive thing to do.

(51)
BRO:

It was more than that because you had to have a talent to
go into that.

BRE:

Oh, I don't know.

BRO:

So you picked the right field.

BRE:

Oh, no.

You wouldn't have changed it?

Not for a million dollars.

luck again.

That was real stroke of

I have my dear mother to thank for that.

BRO:

She started you with music lessons?

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

Was she musical too?

BRE:

Yes I think she's very musical.

She played the violin at some

point in her life. She doesn't play anymore. But I grew up in a
family where music was very prominent. It was just there all
the all the time.

Any time we got together we sang and lots of

dancing and lots of craziness and lots of fun. My mother had a
large family. I guess when I was born there were eight in her
family. There had been ten. So there were lots of occasions for
a lot of people to get together and have lots of fun.

It was

very pleasant. There were very unpleasant things. My father
died when I was six. So there were certainly unpleasant things,
too, but the music was always very, very prominent. It's
interesting now because I have a Hungarian friend. I've been
to visit him twice. The second time I was finally able to
communicate enough with my Hungarian friend to ask him if what

(52)

BRE:

the Hungarians say is true. They say that children need to
music because it makes them emotionally stable. There's an
incredible system of music education in Hungary that was
designed by Kodaly. And they write books saying that if you
study music you will be emotionally stable.
friend Jula, Jula, is this true?

So I said to my

Do you really believe that?

He went to Kodaly's school and I know that he knows a lot about
music. Incidentally, he is a computer person, and so music is
not his field, but I said, is this true? Do the Hungarians
really believe that if you study music you're emotionally
stable?

He said, look at me, I have no problem. So maybe

there's something to it. Over there the children sing a lot.
Obviously they have a lot of problems now, well, they've had a
lot of problems for a long time, but they're very poor.

He's a

college professor, but he's very poor and they work very hard,
but the music is always there.

It's so strengthening to them.

So I think it was to my family too.

I really resonate to that.

When I was there visiting with him, and they would all sit and
drink wine and sing, it was like home. This is where I came
from.

I know this.

BRO:

So it certainly has to be environment as well as heredity.

BRE:

Yes.

BRO:

It's really nice memories.
us.

I'm glad that you shared those with

(53)

BRE:

It's nice that they all fit together too with what I'm doing
in life.

It all seems to come together very nicely.

BRO:

And there are plenty of challenges still waiting?

BRE:

Oh, heavens yes.

When I think about it, sometimes retirement

sounds so wonderful, and yet I think, oh, but I'm not done yet.
I have to finish some things yet.

But I think more and more

I'm realizing that I don't have to finish anything.
finish itself.

It'll

I think you lend your little piece and move on

and somebody else picks up.

I see so many people involved who

I know are on the right track, that it's very reassuring.
People like Jane Scott taking leadership roles, and Jace
Condravy, Sue Hannam. A lot of really powerful women corning
along who are going to do real good things.
BRO:

But there's no reason to retire as long as you're having
satisfying and productive experiences.

BRE:

Yes.

I'm working a little bit too hard right now, and that

isn't productive.

That can be counterproductive because I

get crabby when I'm really tired, and I was very tired at
the end of this year.

I'm beginning to feel a little bit less

oppressed this week just because the phone, you know I don't
have ten messages in when I come in in the morning, and ten
more in the afternoon.
break.

So the summer is certainly a nice

I'm a little dismayed because I haven't been able

to balance yet, and I don't know if I can.

So I'm not sure

I

(54)

BRE:

where I am right now with all that.

I wouldn't delude

myself into thinking that things can't go on without me.
They certainly can, and this is where I mean, this is where
the whole faculty development thing comes into play.
dean will say, now Kate you take care of yourself.
there isn't any help.

There isn't any help.

The
But

No matter

how many times you ask for it, it's not there.

And that's

unfair, and if I get mad enough after a while I'll just
say, I quit because this isn't fair to me.
BRO:

That's right.

I don't see how you can chair the department,

chair APSCUF, and then other special important projects that
only Kate can do.
BRE:

Chair the department, do APSCUF, that's right, projects that
are mine, right.

I can't do all that.

happened at the end of this year.

And that's what

I finally was very

frustrated, but nobody's listening when I say I need help.
BRO:

Because you've always done it before.

BRE:

Maybe so.

BRO:

They don't think you need a life in addition to all of that.
That's not in their program.

BRE:

Oh, no.

So that's my dilemma right now.

Trying to figure

out how to get some support for what I'm doing.

Because

I think what I'm doing is okay, and I would like to continue
with it for a while, but I can't do it very long unless

(55)

BRE:

something would change.

I think secretarial help, no, that

is not an indictment for either secretary because they both
do a good job.
activity.

It's just that there is a great deal of

The APSCUF secretary is incredibly wonderful, but

the music department is just a crazy place, and you can't
get hold of it.

The place just flies, literally flies

around down there.
BRO:

So you have to make some choices.

BRE:

Hard to know which is more important because it would be hard
to give up either one at this point.

BRO:

But rather than say that word retirement, you have other
alternatives, other things to choose to do.

BRE:

I'm thinking about it.
Don't you like it?

BRO:

Well, it depends.

I'm trying.

Well, you're retired.