Interview with Bill Hillgrove
20 October, L994
at $llIAE studios, Pittsburgh, Pa
interviewer Martin Gorski
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Why

do you think baseball is special?

The best way I can describe it, Marty, is that. its the only game
that hasn't changed intrinsically, basically since the turn of
the century. The angles all work. the distances all work. 50ft.

5in. . . . stil1 works. 90ft. still works. 3 strikes, 4 bal1s. ft
works. And so they haven't had to tamper with the basic game.
Now, okay, they lazzed the baseball up on occasion. They've come
up with the DH, which I don't like. I'm a purist, I'm a National
League fan. I grew up that way. I don't like the DH...for a
lot of reasons. And..uh..its the game that seems to be in tune
with the human mind and the human body, more so than another
game.
So I guess what your trying to say is that baseball is the
perfect game?
WeI1. I wouldn't say its the perfect game. I don't think there's
such a thing as a perfect game. But I think its the game that
appeals mosL to human beings because t.here is no clock. You know
human beings were saddled with the clock. For all of us the
clock is t.icking. In baseball it doesn't. So that timelessness
adds to the charm and it also presents with it human problems.
Many times that last out is the toughest to get. And so
therefore I just...I grew up as a baseball fan. I've never had
the pleasure to broadcast baseball, buL I love the game.
Okay..and ..uh this timelessness would that be its defining
character? How would you define lts character?
Yeah, i would say..uh..that, and the fact you could be very
successful individual performer. Whether it be batter, runner,
fielder, pitcher. You can be very successful and stiIl have to
play and use that success within the team concept. I would say
football is the ultimate team game because the ball doesn't move
if all 11 men on offense don't do their job properly and
conversely you can't stop somebody if al-l 11 men on the defense
don't do their job properly. But in baseball one man can win the
game. One man can end the game with a strike out. In footballits not that. easy. In hockey, it,s...certainIy one man can end a
game with a goa]. But it takes the goalies cooperatj-on to make
that possibre. so...in baseball there is cooperation form the
pitcher..that's a given. r think that,s it..Lhat,s its a major
at.traction. The fact that individuals perform within t.he teim
concept, yet individuals can still be themselves.
rndividualism, r feeI, is a basic part of the American psyche.
so.. Do you feel the same way? Could you say that is the reason
it's the national pastime or do you teet there is some other
aspect of the game?
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WeI1, I think it became the national pastime because..of timing
and also the fact that it is a game played in the summer time.
Basically, when people have generally more t.ime to be outdoors
and enjoy the sunshine and the breeze and the birds singing and
all that sort of thing. And I think that's why people tend to
gravitate toward it. Football for many, many years was
considered for ruffians. That's changed now, but in its early
times with the flying wedge and leather helmet..people losing

teeth. It was rather barbaric to a degree. And I think with
basebalI, even with people getting hit with baseballs; it wasn't
considered so. It was more considered as a gentleman's game.
More a past j-me than a sport..
Now.. you mentj-oned something about timing?
The timing.. In other words the timing of the Industrial
revolution. People in small towns rallying around the local
heros. rn general they were baseball players. and this is in a
time, however, when there was no tv. When people wou1d, on a
Sunday afLernoon, go down to the local ball park, just to watch a
baseball game. Now they don't do that because there is one on TV
played by the best. in the business. You know, that. has changed,
and that is probably why football has surpassed baseball-. In
terms of popularj-ty, if you want to argue that. I don't want to
argue that. Seems to me, nothing right now is more successful
than t.he National Football league. It terms of what it is able
to attract. Because maybe people have changed.
Now..uh..you said the industrial Revolution was a or could be a
major factor in determining the expansion of baseba1l. Now
Pittsburgh being an industrial town, or used to be. Has
Pennsylvania contributed a 1ot to basebaLl- or has baseball..you
t.hink baseball had more on an influence on Pittsburgh or PA.
WeII..that's a cart and horse story. And its hard to determine
which. There's a lot of both. But I think Pennsylvania has
certainly contributed a 1ot. If you want me to sit and start
naming names, I can probably start doing that..and I know I'11
leave some names out and that would be incomplete as a result.
But in Lerms of the number of great major league baseball players
we have sent to the game. Your thinking names like Stan Musial,
Dick Grote..I believe Hank Sauer was a western Pennsylvanian.
We've had our share...Ken Griffy..and Jr. We have to cl-aim Jr.
even though he's a generation or two removed. We've had our
share of contribution to the game from that stand point. But
also the game has effected us. I..I..never saw it..Butl-er used
to have a minor league team. Erie, I think, stiI1 has it. The
towns used to have their Leams and if they weren't professional
or organized teams; t.hey were semi-pro t,eams that represented the
community. And so the Industrial Revolution..the people worked
in the mining towns and if the mining town had a basebarl
team..they wore their pride on that teams sleeve. on sunday
afternoons or whenever they could get off, they 1et this thing
happen. Communities would battle each other in this way and have
their 1itt1e..uh..rivaIries and enjoy them. And r think it
real1y came along the same time it was blossoming, and.. r think
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one grabbed the other, and I think that,s why it became the
national pastime.
Okay, now I wanted to talk about something a little more recent
the baseball strike. Do you feel that its affected baseball in
any way and..uh..
WeII, I said in'81 that I thought baseball would never recover
from that strike. And I thought the other work stoppages would
hurt it as we1l, but people even though they get mad when there,s
a work stoppage and you can't watch baseba11, for whatever reason
they go back and forgive. Something te11s me this time around,
fans are really turned off, and I know my track record is not a
good one, because I said it before, but this time around seems to
be different. First of aI1, hard feelings are much deeper then
maybe even we suspect. I mean the owners are going to show the
players and the players are going to show the owners and then who
geLs caught in it you and me. We're the people who end up
suf fering. Okay, I'm sure t.hey're's some ball players that have
3 different condos they're making payments oD, a couple of BMWs
and you know they may have to concentrate on one payment and
forget the other stuff. But we're the ones deprived. I also
feeL very badly in this situation for the people who work at. the
ball parks. Who's livelihoods around the ball park depend upon
the fact that there's a crowd there at the baseball game.
Parking 1ot attendants, you know, you name it. There's a 1ot of
people suffering because of it.. And it's money that they'11
never retrieve. I mean its gone forever. And I perceive the
hard feelings, plus the fact that I think the average guy in
these tight economic times has trouble making ends meat and the
wife having working together with income troubles getting the
family on solid financial ground. I really think t.hey're sitting
looking at it and say these mil-lionaires want more. Okay the
side of the coin is the Baltimore Orioles franchise sold for $A2
million in 1979. Today it worth $175 or 80 milIion. So there
must be something attractive about owing a baseball franchise.
I'm not saying that the players are completely wrong. Or that
the owners are completely wrong. I' m saying that they're all
wrong', and the fan is suffering. And until the fan speaks his
mind, or holds out; or st.ays away, or boycotts the product sold
by Major League basebaI1, then they'11 probably not get the
message. I' m talking about the owners and the players. They'11
probably be business as usual until its time for another strike.
Something teI1s me this is all together different.
Something
tel1s me t.his is going to have far reaching, long lasting
affects.
Now you bei-ng a sportscaster in Pittsburgh have you heard
anything on the inside? I don't wanna break any news stories
that you might have Later on tonight.
I'd be happy to do it if I had one.
You don't have any. . .
I don't have any insight. I don't know.
Locally? What's happening?
No. First of all Donald Fear made sure the players wouldn't

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take, we can't get to them, accept for Jay 8e11, and the
other...Tim Fo1ey..Tom Foley--Tom Fo1ey, I'11 be alright, Tom
Foley the ot.her player. .feff King lives in Pittsburgh. He
wouldn't talk to us because he was instructed not. to. So I don't
know anything. My guess is it will- be back next year. I'm
taking my cue from Charley Huff, who just retired. And Charley,
speaking as an ex-player and is now as a fan, thinks they'I1
settle it and be back in the spring. But I wonder, I rea1Iy
wonder. I think that bad blood is real1y thick.
Also I may be wrong or right. l' m not sure. Are they thinking
about selling the Pirates?
They have to be sold.
They have to be sold? What going on?
This consortium can' t go on any further with this project. They
say baseball and now we have to take the next step. Hopefully,
the ownership..which could involve the Rooney's and possibly the
1oca1 cable TV company and other high profile people, who said
they were interested, like Dan Marino said he was j-nterested.
Hopefully, that can be put together. In fact, if it can be put
together then we won't be lmmediately threatened wit.h the loss of
the franchise.
And that was my next question. What if an outsider buys the
franchise?
Well here's all you need to know about that. Elroy Face tol-d me
that the guy, I don't remember, came in from Charlotte said
fill in the
"Here's a check. I'm going to sign this check. You
just
put a
you
want it Eo. You
amount. It could be whatever
pay
it, but in ten minutes that
number in there. Fine, I'l-I
clubs going to Charlotte.rr And of course, Marc Sauer doesn't
have that power--It's a good thing. I think it would be bad for
baseball to have t.his great traditional franchise, one of the
earliness, to be lost and we would have to bring a back-up team
in here.
Now do you think it would affect the average fans here?
It would affect them a 1ot especially if we ended up with an
American League team because these people here are basically
National League. They've always been, and t.hey woul-d have
trouble identifying with a National League team.
So you feel even if the Pirates do move, you feel another team
would move into Pittsburgh?
I think that at some point in time they would try it again. Yes
under better circumstances, under better management, better
lease-agreements for a better ball park. That's not a ball park,
that's a stadium. There's a big difference.
Okay, does being a sportscaster give you a special vj-ew point on
baseball? I mean as opposed to players, the owners, the grounds
keepers.
Well sure. I think that if you're doing your job correctly your
representing the fan. You're asking the questions that the fans
would be asking. Why this? Why that? Why not this? Why not
that? And so therefore I think that we have a unique role in the
situation. We're closer to the fans than the ball player is and
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the owners because we represent the fans. Firstly, we are fans
if we're doing are jobs right, and secondly, w€ represent the
fans. And sometimes I think when players refuse us interviews
and turn their backs on us, then, okay, they have their reasons
and they can do that.. I think I can live with it but they have
to remember t.hat they're turning their backs on the fans when
they do that. I don't think they want to do that. I don,t think
a player wants to turn his back on a fan. You gotta remember who
pays the freight.
So you feel that sportscasters are the representatives of the
fan?
Yes. That's are job.
Okay..now..uh..I believe you grew up around Pittsburgh..
Yes in t.he city proper, Garfield, which is in the East End
section.
What's your first experience t.hat you remember with baseball?
My dad took me to Forbes FieLd. I saw Danny Murtau play second
base. I saw Ralph Kiner hit home runs. I saw the O'Brien
twins..then I saw Dick Grote. Then you kinda move forward. '7L
championship team, then '79 championship team. So my earliest
recollection is Danny Murtau play second base. Uh..and..uh..who
was the guy who went to Cleveland uh..Ieft fiel-der, Gene Wooding.
I remember him. So I was about 10 or 11 years o1d. Which
woul-d've been around 1950 or'51 when I first had a recollection
of Forbes Fie1d. A1so, I grew up in Garfield; up on a hill we
could see the lights of Forbes Field at night. It, was a constant
reminder that there's a baseball game going on. In those days
Rosie Rosewell's voice would came over the radios on porches in
my neighborhood. People listening to the bal-l- game. That
doesn't happen an)rmore, either. First of all, if its a porch,
its in back of the house; and its far removed from anybody else
and there is no communal sense. Everybody is off doing their own
thing. And it not a radio, chances are its probably a TV now.
Uh..but f do remember that..uh..that was..uh..the most vivid
memory as a youngster growing up, that f can recall-.
Do you think that TV...that is no radio, then radj-o, then TV has
impacted the sport? .....
Oh sure.
...and the fans in the area?
Tel-evision has had a profound impact on al1 sports. Most of it
good, some of it bad. Some of it fixable, most of it
irreparable. uh..you know, 1et's face that was a period of time
when people sat on the porches. They don,t do thaL anlrmore. rts
a whol-e different society now. A society geared towards
television. baseball has certainly used television especially
with the ratings it gets in the worl-d series and play-otrs. sorry to kinda see the game of the week go by the-boirds, but
cable TV has impacted that to. rt used to bi that if NBc woul_d
put an afternoon game on between two rea11y
good teams, that a
lot of the nation would tune in to see whal ias going
on. But
.g*, r'm not going to watch that if the pirates ire Eoming
that night on cab1e. rts fragmented now. you can do more on
of
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what you want. to do as an individual. You don't have to sit
around and wait for anybody, NBC or anybody, to hand you a
basebal-l game. You can just punch one up and its not scrambled.

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So you feel that the fans, they don't identify with the entire
game? They just identify only with their teams? And the

fractionalized...
Wel-I,I think more so because more of the 1oca1 teams are
available. It used to be the Pirates used to televise 38 games a
year, and that was not that long ago, Now with cable they're
just about on all the time. I mean its rare that they're not on.
Do you think this has maybe hindered the progress of farm teams?
Yes, I'm not going to watch..uh,..um...uh,um..even the Pony
League or American L,egion game in my loca1 field if. . if the
Pirates were on tonight.. I wouldn't ever make the decision to
watch the live game, with a young kid; when opposed to what you
might call Lhe real thing. WeII, not that the real thing is the
same as it was 30 years ago. The game has slipped. The people
playing the game don'L play as wel-I as they used to...generally
speaking. Uh..the pitching not as good. If they expand again
we'11 have pitchers extending their careers into their 50's.
Charlie Huff may unretj-re,'Nolan Ryan may come out of retirement
if there's another expansion. There's not enough pitchers to go
around. Last year, the average earned run average was 3.50 I
don't know what it is this year. That's high. When I was a kid,
when you were over 3.30 you were getting ready to be shipped back
to t.he minor leagues. And now the average is 3.50. Pitching is
just, not as good. You don't see the hit and run as often. You
don't see smart baseball because the product is diluted. There
aren't enough good baseball players to go around to all t.he major
league teams. And so therefore, the product isn't as grood as it
used to be. Now I may sound like "Things ain't like they used to
be." WeI1, in baseba11 they're not. I think football has gotten
better. Hockey, the pool of talent has increased, now, in the
European players. More kids in America skate, so the pool is
getting better. In basketball, it always will rise. baseball is
shrinking. Kids don't play as much basebalL now. Plus there
are too many teams. You can see it; 20 game winners are almost
unheard of these days. When I was growing up, the Cl-eveLand
Indj-ans had four on the same staff. Four-20 game winners, 20
games now..you only have to win 12 or 13 now to be considered a
real effective starter. 'Course the use of the Bull-pen has
increased and that's part of it, but stiIl there aren,t enough
good pitchers.

Interruption by Don Cannon.
What do you

feel are the best examples of basebaLl? The pirates
before and long ago and today? Then and now?
oh.
Either players or team owners, managers who most exemplified what
the game meant or stood for?
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Well I think I'm prejudiced but again that's my time warp. I
belong to that era as fan growing up as compared Lo now. I'm not
a fan growing up now. I'm a fan who's middle-aged and young.
The 50's Pirates will always be my favorite team because that
team was first of all a over achieving team. They weren'L as
tal-ented as the Yankees that year. The Yankees pounded them in 3
games, buL the Pirates won the close games. To me that's the
true champion. That was a smart team. Dick Grote once said to
me that the Pirates, day in and day out, put 6-1-/2 coaches onto
the field. Not talking about coaches but players. Guys reaIly
bright, into the game; knew where to position themselves, had
good inst.incts, pitchers that knew how to pitch. They di-dn't
have to be taught as much as maybe today's players. So the 50's
Pirates will always be my favorite team. '71 was great.
Clemente was as great a baseball player as ever walked on the
fieId. '79, I got to cover that with Doc Prince down in
Baltimore, back and forth. And That was a great experience. But
none will ever be as impactfull on me as the 1950's Pirates.

Interruption by Don Cannon.

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Oh, Yeah. Roberto Clemente. I wanted to ask you--the memorial
statue? How do you see him as a person? From what I've
understood, he used to be laughed at because of his accent. Is
that how you see it?
I don't think so. I think maybe t.hat's somebody view. Uh..he was
always a guy who was not easy to understand because he wouldn't
1et people get to know him that wel-l. He always wanted to keep a
dj-stance from people. But I remember him as a warm, friendly--he
didn't always get along with the media well but I wasn't in the
media then. I was kinda a kid trying to become a media person.
And he certainly had all the skiIIs.
He could throw the baII.
He coul-d hit with authority. He has great base running
instincts, had great style and a flair, you know, the basket
cat.ch. Arm threw on a rope, That devil may care swagger he had.
He was good and he knew it.
He was colorfuI.
If there was one
word to describe him that would be co1orfu1. He had style great

styIe. And obviously was a great baseball player. Dick Grote
once said, "no on was ever given more ski1ls by the Lord than
Roberto Clemente. No Body." I t,hink that his }ittle distancing
from the media and the fact that he had a language barrier made
his early years somewhat more strong than they shoul-d've
been..uh..probably when he matured and perhaps mellowed a liLtle
bit, he looked back on himself and said 'ryeah, I made some
mistakes," but that's part of being a foreign kid with another
language that's coming into a cul-t.ure that,s a little different.
Maybe a 1ot different.
This person, how could you question the
man as a human being. who died in the manner he died. r mean he
was trying to help somebody he didn't even know. Nicaragua is a
pret.ty good hike from Puerto Rico. And certainly pittsburgh is a
light year. r remember one time r got to play in one of t[ose
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media games. Either against the coaches or with the coaches
versus someone eIse. I hit a ground baII t.o short which one of
t.he other media or somebody didn't field.
It went all the way to
t.he left field wa11, 'cause nobody caught up with it.
And so I,m
chugging around the bases and finally I'm coming round third and
they're waving t'Okay!!" And I go to slide and t.hen there's mud
all over me. I got a raspberry on my can. I got up sIowly and I
remember looking in the dug out and seeing Clemente. He is just
roaring, laughing at me doing what I just did. Hitting an insj-de
the park home run between the short stop's 1egs, you know, which
shows t.he quality of baseball played in those games. But..uh..he
got a kick out of that and that warm smiIe, I'11 never forget
he had that warmth.
Do you t.hink t.hat players. . . I mean he was a great player and
person during this time. Do you think that players nowadays

would come close? l,ike Barry Bonds?
Now Barry Bonds, don'L get me wrong, Barry Bonds is a great
player but if you want to make a comparison between the two of
them. As a hitter Barry Bonds may be better. Barry Bonds,
according to Dick Grot.e, who knows a Iot more about hitting a
baseball than I do, said he's not only the best lefty against
lefties he's ever seen, but he's the best two strike hitter in
t.he game. 'Cause he changes his swing to accommodate the strike
zone and make sure he stays alive and makes contact. Uh..maybe
as a hitter, Bonds might be gireater. But as a fielder, and I'l-1
cit.e one example, that's when Sid Bream scored a winning run for
the Atlanta Braves in game 7. That base hit to left field by
Francisco Cabrea - a name we shal1 never forget. I could see

Clemente picking that ball up. First of all, Bream wouldn't have
turned third, and then the next thing you see Barry Bonds' throw
is up the 1ine. If its anywhere close to home, Spanky has a shot
making the tag, but not if its up the 1ine. I would never see
Clemente make a critical mistake like that situation - throwing
down the 1ine. ,Just wouldn't happen. So I think the comparison
ends right there. So overall greatness--Clemente's the greater

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End of interview.

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